[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by cmos

Bern's trump card in Tea Party was "THIS IS ALL TRUTH.... Yeah, I know all the problems with this red, but she still said it. And explained why she was able to say it. She claims that it's really what happened in reality on that day and reality doesn't have to follow any rules for mystery, that is our previous episodes.

What you state is dubious. Someone else had posted this, but in case everyone forgets, it's true that Bern said:

これは全て真実

True, if we translated that sentence as is, it will become "this is all truth". But that sentence is cut halfway. For all we know, she might be about to say

これは全て真実ではない

Becoming "All this is not the truth". But being the bully that she is, she paraphrased it that way to bully Ange, and how wonderful that plan worked...

Edit: Btw, does anyone remember the ages of all the cousins, shannon, and kannon? I think I see an outrageous ending depending on their ages.

[cmos]

Originally Posted by Oliver

If Bernkastel really can observe numerous kakera as she claims, there is no point for her to seek anything and "reach" any kind of truth. She can just go and see it and say this was the truth, period, end of story.

She shouldn't be able to do this at any time, because The Real Truth is hidden among infinite number of other truths-interpretations. She needs to somehow filter them.
Unless I didn't quite understand something, Bern basically said that when the illusion, that covered the truth, is destroyed, the catbox breaks and the truth is naked. And this is probably the biggest problem I see in Tea Party, because it shouldn't be like that, if we're in the mystery genre. Though maybe it's okay, if our goal was just to find the truth about Beatrice (that's what her mystery games are about, aren't they?) and not what really happened.
To somehow solve this issue we need to find a sufficient amount of clues, that will definitely point us to that truth or any alternative truth. Only in this case we could say that we solved the real event and not just created another fiction about it. But now I doubt more and more that it's possible without "divine revelation".

How exactly is that different from interpretation?

It's different, because in the end, when you'll open the catbox there will be only one interpretation left. That is, true interpretation - the truth.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Helmet-kun

The only thing I really doubt is Will being the detective:

Obviously a 'detective' isn't just anyone who detects things, at least not in Umineko. A detective is someone who either makes the Detective Proclamation or is declared the detective by the person who runs the board.

According to this definition Battler wasn't the detective in EP1-4. He didn't ever make use of the detective proclamation and wasn't declared "detective" by Beatrice. And yet Battler was definitely the detective.

The way I see it in a story no one is allowed to bring light to a mystery apart from the detective. Minor characters can shed some light on it, but the biggest part of that work must be done by the detective. Now in EP7 Will does it all, he solves everything and with ease. If that isn't a detective I don't know what else it is.

Plus Will was expecting to receive detective authority. If that doesn't demonstrate that he believed he was called to be the detective...

Originally Posted by Renall

A thought on how Bern could defeat Will in spite of all his rule-slinging...

...did she ever actually suggest this story was a mystery? Oh, she asked him to answer a question. She asked him to figure things out. But she always seemed a bit... dodgy and unresponsive to assertions of rules. If the genre were not a mystery, none of that would matter, would it?

A story with a mystery in it is not, by default, a "mystery story."

I think Bern's main point here is that the story she presented is not a story but the truth (doesn't this remind you Hachijo?).

She also seems to counter Will's first rule by stating that in the world of humans there's no possible way to open a catbox that left no clue to be examined.

So probably Bern's point is that all the 20 wedges are useless to begin with because they have no effect in the world of humans.

Originally Posted by TehChron

Unless you want to say that Bernkastel, who never utilized the Golden Truth, is somehow more aware of events than Battler, who wound up becoming Game Master and even made a true game, then you're not going to like Episode 8.

About the golden truth. I think that after EP7 we can say with a good degree of certainty that gold = lie. There is probably some adjustment to make, some rules to better define it, but the general concept is that he golden truth is meant to create illusions.

Will's answers to Claire in the final showdown also suggest that Kinzo's corpse is actually a fake, and that would explain why Battler didn't say in gold that Kinzo is dead but rather that he could present the corpse of Kinzo.

Now that means Bern has absolutely no interest in using the golden truth at all.

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Edit: Btw, does anyone remember the ages of all the cousins, shannon, and kannon? I think I see an outrageous ending depending on their ages.

of course

George: 23
Jessica: 18
Battler: 18
Maria: 9
Ange: 6

Shannon is said to be 16, but if she's Yasu (and most probably she is) then Genji explained that he lied about her real age subtracting 3 years. That means Shannon is 19 years old.
Kanon is supposed to be 16 years old, however if shkanon is true, then yet again his real age is 19.


add 12 years each if you want to know their age in 1998

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by cmos

Unless I didn't quite understand something, Bern basically said that when the illusion, that covered the truth, is destroyed, the catbox breaks and the truth is naked. And this is probably the biggest problem I see in Tea Party, because it shouldn't be like that, if we're in the mystery genre.

Most importantly, they're all playing with definitions to muddle things further.

No formal definition of the state of catbox is given anywhere, but notice certain properties of this state:

1. It is a state of information, but not an event itself. That is, nothing about an actual event in the past changes depending on what you know about an event.
2. It is internal to a particular thinker. Eva knows what happened on Rokkenjima. She just isn't talking. For her, no state of catbox regarding Rokkenjima Incident exists.
3. Unless someone presents you with evidence of events that, for you, are in a state of catbox, no breaking of the catbox actually occurs for you. It is still as much of an unknown as it was even if for someone else it is not.

But you have no way at all to determine if any given story about the contents of the catbox is true without independent verifying evidence. Any given story can be yet another interpretation. Actually, you can't even tell if any given story that fits the evidence that does exist is "true" -- that's the essence of the Anti-Mystery problem, "further evidence may invalidate or force the reinterpretation of existing evidence, and it is impossible to determine if any further evidence can be found." Unless you can accumulate the totality of possible evidence, absolute objectivity is unreachable.

Basically, the catbox cannot be actually broken, except for someone who can become the disembodied objective observer and receive firsthand evidence in it's entirety. Even if they later retell the events, it's only as far broken as you trust their word.

Bernkastel numerously refers to observing various parallel worlds-"kakera" from outside of time. How exactly does Bernkastel know that any version of events she observed is the "real truth"? If the "real truth" has any special status, it would be immediately noticeable and there would be no need to make any conclusions, pure evidence would be sufficient.

She needs to think. Therefore she does not know immediately which, if any of them, is real. Otherwise, sitting in on Beatrice's games would be completely pointless. Even if she perceives interpretations as parallel worlds from which a totality of information can be acquired, as long as more than one exists that fits the outside-catbox evidence, there is no way for her to tell which one of them is "real", if any.

Bernkastel's claim to truth and breaking open the catbox is exactly as relative as ours.

Originally Posted by cmos

It's different, because in the end, when you'll open the catbox there will be only one interpretation left. That is, true interpretation - the truth.

What is truth?

Well, actually, the real important question is, what exactly is a witch as seen in the meta-world?

[erneiz_hyde]

Hmmm? Waaaait, I'm a little bit confused. If Yasu is the child of Kinzo and 2nd Beatrice, when Yasu's given to Natsuhi, was the 2nd Beatrice already dead? Just how separated is Rosa from the rest of her siblings? How exactly is the chronology of 2nd Beatrice's death and the giving of Yasu to Natsuhi?

Also, just a wild guess, but is it possible that Yasu actually have a sibling? Just like how Yasu was originally given to Natsuhi, this sibling is also given to an Ushiromiya member, like...Rudolf, for example?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Hmmm? Waaaait, I'm a little bit confused. If Yasu is the child of Kinzo and 2nd Beatrice, when Yasu's given to Natsuhi, was the 2nd Beatrice already dead? Just how separated is Rosa from the rest of her siblings? How exactly is the chronology of 2nd Beatrice's death and the giving of Yasu to Natsuhi?

Also, just a wild guess, but is it possible that Yasu actually have a sibling? Just like how Yasu was originally given to Natsuhi, this sibling is also given to an Ushiromiya member, like...Rudolf, for example?

You can click on "timeline" in my sig if you want to know more about this stuff. It's just updated to EP4 because I posted it in the anime thread, but the speculations I made about the adult's ages are still valid.


It is almost certain that Beatrice2 died before Kinzo asked Natsuhi to adopt Yasu. I don't think Kinzo would have taken away that child from Beatrice2 (he is a bastard, but not that bastard... I think...). Then the atmosphere at the time makes me think that something tragic already happened. Kumasawa was very troubled the baby was crying... and so on.
There is also Kinzo's reaction 3 days after when the baby supposedly died, he wouldn't have lost his mind yet if Beatrice2 was still alive.


As for Rosa, she was still living as a schoolgirl in the Mansion when Natsuhi and Krauss married. That's why Rosa seems to be particularly considerate about Natsuhi unlike Eva and Rudolf (she brought her a tea that's said to be good for headaches).

About 20 years separate Rosa from Krauss. Quite a lot isn't it? For a man that didn't really love her wife, Kinzo surely has been an active lover.
Can't blame the old guy though... at that time Beatrice Castiglioni was dead and Beatrice2 was too young, he had no other choice but to pour his libido onto his wife /sarcasm.

Also, just a wild guess, but is it possible that Yasu actually have a sibling? Just like how Yasu was originally given to Natsuhi, this sibling is also given to an Ushiromiya member, like...Rudolf, for example?

Unlikely. Beatrice2 died in 1967, period. Battler would need to be Yasu's twin to be Beatrice2's son...

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

It is almost certain that Beatrice2 died before Kinzo asked Natsuhi to adopt Yasu. I don't think Kinzo would have taken away that child from Beatrice2 (he is a bastard, but not that bastard... I think...). Then the atmosphere at the time makes me think that something tragic already happened. Kumasawa was very troubled the baby was crying... and so on.
There is also Kinzo's reaction 3 days after when the baby supposedly died, he wouldn't have lost his mind yet if Beatrice2 was still alive.

...So by the time Beatrice2 died, she already bore Yasu, right? Because Rosa never mentioned the Beatrice she met had a bulging stomach. Yet she insisted to escape without even caring for her own child?

Also, I wonder how old Yasu was when Kinzo gave Yasu to Natsuhi. If Yasu was at least 2 years old, then my guess that Yasu had a sibling is possible.

Spoiler:

Which makes Battler and the 3rd Beatrice siblings. lol incest. Yeah, too bad for you Battler .

Edit:

Unlikely. Beatrice2 died in 1967, period. Battler would need to be Yasu's twin to be Beatrice2's son...

Oh yeah, 1967...hmm...then what if Battler's really Yasu's twin? What if Battler's known birthday is the day he was given to Rudolf? (which makes him about one year old at the time). I guess it really is hard to fit in this theory. There's just too many things that need preparation and presumptions and it really is hard to add it all up. Though I still think that who Battler's parents are will add new light to this story.

[cmos]

Originally Posted by Oliver

catbox

Why, thank you, I know all of this.

Basically, the catbox cannot be actually broken, except for someone who can become the disembodied objective observer and receive firsthand evidence in it's entirety. Even if they later retell the events, it's only as far broken as you trust their word.

That's true, but we have red truth for destroying uncertainties.

How exactly does Bernkastel know that any version of events she observed is the "real truth"? If the "real truth" has any special status, it would be immediately noticeable and there would be no need to make any conclusions, pure evidence would be sufficient.

That's exactly the problem I'm talking about. Reading Tea Party I had an impression, that all other false truths disappear once you have destroyed the illusion. The illusion is the obstacle that blocks the truth from discovering, creates false possibilities. Beatrice's illusion was killed and the truth became apparent.
Yeah, I know it sounds like magic, that's why I don't like it too. But I wouldn't put it past Ryu. He promised us "an extremely merciless answer" in this episode, didn't he? After all, if the real event isn't supposed to be solved logically, he can reveal the truth in any way.

Bernkastel's claim to truth and breaking open the catbox is exactly as relative as ours.

I hope that's the case. It'd be an utter disappointment if the one, whom we expect to break the catbox and tell the truth will actually tell a sweet lie, and by his right of survivor knowing the truth it'll become the "truth".

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by cmos

That's exactly the problem I'm talking about. Reading Tea Party I had an impression, that all other false truths disappear once you have destroyed the illusion. The illusion is the obstacle that blocks the truth from discovering, creates false possibilities. Beatrice's illusion was killed and the truth became apparent.

I think you're confusing a description of a character that is said to represent an illusion being killed, or some other activity, with actually "destroying the illusion".

What was the illusion? That an extra person exists on the island? I don't think anyone seriously had such an illusion all the way since Ep2 or so. That Kanon is actually a person? Way too many people thought that was not the case, and since they still can't convince those who disagree, it sounds like this illusion wasn't destroyed terribly well. Well, what else?

Just what did Bernkastel reveal in her entire episode 7 that makes "false truths" actually impossible?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

...So by the time Beatrice2 died, she already bore Yasu, right? Because Rosa never mentioned the Beatrice she met had a bulging stomach. Yet she insisted to escape without even caring for her own child?

That's why I didn't really think this scenario could be possible even though it was speculated already. How could Beatrice2 escape without her baby?
Ryuukishi didn't explain this.

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Also, I wonder how old Yasu was when Kinzo gave Yasu to Natsuhi. If Yasu was at least 2 years old, then my guess that Yasu had a sibling is possible.

Yasu has 19 years in 1986 so she was born in 1967, that means she didn't even had 1 year when her mother died and Natsuhi rejected her.

[cmos]

Originally Posted by Oliver

What was the illusion?
Just what did Bernkastel reveal in her entire episode 7 that makes "false truths" actually impossible?

As I understood what was said there, The Illusion of the Witch is a metaphorical concept of some kind, that includes all falsehoods and different interpretations. It's represented by the witch Beatrice or maybe it's more accurate to say by "Beatrice's heart". That heart was destroyed by Will.
The Illusion was already destroyed once - at the end of ep5. It was then, when the truth about paperweights and some other bits and pieces of info slowly began to emerge, even though they aren't directly connected to anything Erika revealed. Back then the Illusion was revived by Battler just in time, so we didn't learn all the truth.

[Judoh]

@erneiz_hyde: So no matter what we do with Battler's relationships, Yasu or Ange, Battler's going to be a siscon in the end? Lol I love Japan...

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That's why I didn't really think this scenario could be possible even though it was speculated already. How could Beatrice2 escape without her baby?
Ryuukishi didn't explain this.

Yasu has 19 years in 1986 so she was born in 1967, that means she didn't even had 1 year when her mother died and Natsuhi rejected her.

If the Yasu story is true, the only reasonable explanation is that Kinzo actually took the baby from Beatrice-2. But if that's so, she certainly didn't seem to notice or react to it being missing, or else she got over it remarkably quickly.

Originally Posted by cmos

As I understood what was said there, The Illusion of the Witch is a metaphorical concept of some kind, that includes all falsehoods and different interpretations. It's represented by the witch Beatrice or maybe it's more accurate to say by "Beatrice's heart". That heart was destroyed by Will.

Beatrice who? I don't see no Beatrice interacting with Will. I see Claire. You got any proof that Claire's heart = Beatrice's heart? There's probably a reason Bern couldn't conjure up a true Beato of her own.

The Illusion was already destroyed once - at the end of ep5. It was then, when the truth about paperweights and some other bits and pieces of info slowly began to emerge, even though they aren't directly connected to anything Erika revealed. Back then the Illusion was revived by Battler just in time, so we didn't learn all the truth.

That's an interpretation. The illusion was not actually destroyed as such in ep5; the truth was not revealed, but instead a "truth" forcing Natsuhi to culprit status was advanced. Some "true" elements of the nature of things may have leaked out in the meantime, but what was to become "truth" was decidedly not true.

[cmos]

Originally Posted by Renall

Beatrice who? I don't see no Beatrice interacting with Will. I see Claire. You got any proof that Claire's heart = Beatrice's heart? There's probably a reason Bern couldn't conjure up a true Beato of her own.

Yes, they are all trolling. Five episodes of trolling, goddamit Ryu, you bastard!
You don't see Beatrice, because it's supposed to be the true form of Beatrice, Yasu, telling the tale. Her appearance and name are given to her by Bern for those, who still don't get who she really is.

The illusion was not actually destroyed as such in ep5; the truth was not revealed, but instead a "truth" forcing Natsuhi to culprit status was advanced. Some "true" elements of the nature of things may have leaked out in the meantime, but what was to become "truth" was decidedly not true.

It doesn't matter. Why would "some true elements of the nature of things" leak is the question. Because the Illusion was destroyed - it was stated many times. It wasn't destroyed properly, the heart still existed, so the real truth didn't come out as it should, but our case is different.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Renall

Beatrice who? I don't see no Beatrice interacting with Will. I see Claire. You got any proof that Claire's heart = Beatrice's heart? There's probably a reason Bern couldn't conjure up a true Beato of her own.

Well... even if they were given different names and clothes (the face is the same) I really don't think they should be considered different persons.

In the first place that "character" is only called Claire on the metastage set up by Bern. In the story Claire herself narrates she's called Beatrice.

That very same Beatrice later undergoes a change in her look and becomes the Beatrice we know, but nothing at all was suggested about her becoming a different person. The changes only entailed changes on her look.

In addition the one that Will points as the culprit isn't Claire at all it's Yasu. This was made quite clear, Bern simply granted her to appear as Claire.

But Claire/Beatrice/Yasu not only are the same person, they are the same personality as well. Shannon has her own story and memories separated from Yasu, but Yasu Beatrice and Claire are one and the same, there is no discontinuity among them.

[Renall]

And it does not bother you, not even one little bit, that there is a clear thematic intention to present a character who isn't Beatrice but kinda-but-not-really resembles her? From a guy who lazily slapped Kinzo's hair on Battler's body in the very same episode? Why go to so much trouble? Why not recycle Beatrice again? If you're just going to dismiss that as irrelevant, then you've bought the line you've been fed hook, line, and sinker.

[Judoh]

On the topic of those sprites. It's not that he's just NOW doing the copy paste routine.

lil sis Beato and legend Beato in episode 6 were mostly copy paste sprites. BATTLER is just the same guy with Kinzo's cloak pasted on, and the staff MARIA holds is blatant lift from EVA. It's nothing new really.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Renall

If you're just going to dismiss that as irrelevant, then you've bought the line you've been fed hook, line, and sinker.

A void statement.
You don't have any valid element to give credibility to this claim except your personal opinion. Claire is Yasu, Beatrice is Yasu, therefore Claire is Beatrice, that's basic aristotelic logic for you. The argument of Ryuukishi being lazy is moot, he still slapped Beatrice's face on that "new character", how much time do you think it took him to draw a single sprite? that's the very same thing he did for Kinzo.
Ryuukishi wanted to show how "Beatrice" as we know her didn't suddenly came to life, it was a long process of modeling and remodeling. It couldn't have that look from the beginning because Yasu never saw the portrait before. That's why Ryuukishi needed to create a different sprite for the proto-Beatrice.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Bernkastel numerously refers to observing various parallel worlds-"kakera" from outside of time. How exactly does Bernkastel know that any version of events she observed is the "real truth"? If the "real truth" has any special status, it would be immediately noticeable and there would be no need to make any conclusions, pure evidence would be sufficient.

She needs to think. Therefore she does not know immediately which, if any of them, is real. Otherwise, sitting in on Beatrice's games would be completely pointless. Even if she perceives interpretations as parallel worlds from which a totality of information can be acquired, as long as more than one exists that fits the outside-catbox evidence, there is no way for her to tell which one of them is "real", if any.

Honestly, looking at all the information about Fragments we've received, I begin to wonder if there is such a thing as a "real" world in the first place.

First, basically everything we've seen has been called a Fragment at some point in the story, and we've just received confirmation that Fragments = games = game records = stories. So even Ange's future, which we'd thought of as having some weight of reality, is no different from the games proper or the random fantasy bedroom that Bern and Lambda spend time in at the end of EP4.

Second, we learned in EP6 that when people believe something is true, that belief crystallizes into a new Fragment. In other words, Fragments can give birth to more Fragments. And then those Fragments can create more Fragments. And so on, recursively, forever.

This has implications which are slightly terrifying.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

A void statement.
You don't have any valid element to give credibility to this claim except your personal opinion. Claire is Yasu, Beatrice is Yasu, therefore Claire is Beatrice, that's basic aristotelic logic for you. The argument of Ryuukishi being lazy is moot, he still slapped Beatrice's face on that "new character", how much time do you think it took him to draw a single sprite? that's the very same thing he did for Kinzo.
Ryuukishi wanted to show how "Beatrice" as we know her didn't suddenly came to life, it was a long process of modeling and remodeling. It couldn't have that look from the beginning because Yasu never saw the portrait before. That's why Ryuukishi needed to create a different sprite for the proto-Beatrice.

No, I'm sorry, but you have nothing to back that up. Here are the facts that you have: Claire claims to be Yasu, we are told Yasu exists, Yasu claims to be Beatrice, therefore Bernkastel claims that Claire = Beatrice = Yasu.

Do not make conclusions that do not follow from facts and attempt to dismiss people's arguments because you "know" something is true. We have evidence, yes, but a conclusion from that evidence is by no means an undisputed fact.