Angel Beats! - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[maplehurry]

I guess we can put away are guns, halberds, sonic blades, and kunai

haha, nice one XD

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

She makes it CLEAR that she'll carry revenge/interrogate God. She never said clearly, "Hey guys, I will manipulate you, use you in any ways possible in doing so. And if you are fine with that, then join the SSS."

Not all this manipulation again.

Tell me what did she use to manipulate them? Excessive-fear tactic? Unauthorized power? Sex appeal? Information manipulating?

Yuri can show them how their lives will be if they join the SSS. Then they always can change their mind to withdraw from the SSS or join school-life and disappear like others. However in the case of Otonashi, he is still not sure how they would turn out if one person disappear (since none has experienced and returned). They could disappear into bubble, spend their eternity in hell, or resurrect as barnacle (well the laters is less likely considering the mood of the anime but it's still possible). Even if he plan to privately inform them beforehand, isn't Otonashi's method will like privately approaching a bedridden patient and shows them a drug that you don't know if it works or not, therefore close any chance for any open debates. Same good intention. In fact, at least the doctor have a little bit of science behind his method

Originally Posted by Knightrunner

Does that make Yuzuru anymore right! She made it clear she is against GOD. She gives them orders and they follow. None of them questions her orders and it was up to them to follow them or not. When a person ask her a question she would answer what is her theory such as the Iwasawa incident. Tenshi never really gave a clear cut answer to the group and she knew she was playing the villian card. Don't get me wrong in this, Yuzuru has good intentions, but his method is all wrong. Tenshi and Yuzuru are tricking them that Angel is the enemy and he is going to make them disappear by finding out there past. If he finds out there past and tell them his theory that would be okay and that is the "right" method. It is not right figuring out there past and creating moments where they can disappear without telling them first.

Agree with the above. As long as Otonashi state out his intention, before throwing them into that "moment". Then it would be fine.

But if he try to deceive them and throw them into that "set-up" moment and that's how this will end. Then the director has some mess-up sense with his judgement

[Xacual]

I don't understand how Otonashi is wrong. They are basically in purgatory living a never changing existence. Maybe some friends will disappear and some new friends will appear but in the long run they won't accomplish anything or really experience anything new. Like someone said earlier really all they do is fight "Tenshi." I'm not really against Yuri but she has really gotten them all into this idea to fight against God because of how their lives went or ended.

If you were in that situation, would you really want to fight some non existent entity while harboring regrets and grief over your life? Or would you want to come to terms with your life and pass on? I mean thats Yuri vs Otonashi's view points at the moment. Now I'm not going to make an arguement one way or the other on who is manipulating who because right now we don't know how Otonashi is going to operate.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by panzerfan

I would advocate Anh Minh to defend his view through mounting a question on Otonashi operating via Sola Fide.

What? Why? I already explained what I didn't like about Otonashi's actions and why. What more would you have?

As for why I decided to name Socrates, maplehurry pretty much addressed a part of the mentioned example. The figure of antiquity through his suicide became a martyr for his ideals and others emulate him, although would the death of the philosopher be itself an invitation to the treat of suicide for the generations to come? If we deem this sort of invitation to be an acceptable form of euthanasia, some level of re-evaluation should be considered on suicide lobbyists as well.

And I still don't see how it's in any way relevant to the case at hand. For that matter, I don't see how Socrates' death is an invitation to suicide.

Originally Posted by Xacual

I don't understand how Otonashi is wrong. They are basically in purgatory living a never changing existence. Maybe some friends will disappear and some new friends will appear but in the long run they won't accomplish anything or really experience anything new. Like someone said earlier really all they do is fight "Tenshi." I'm not really against Yuri but she has really gotten them all into this idea to fight against God because of how their lives went or ended.

If you were in that situation, would you really want to fight some non existent entity while harboring regrets and grief over your life? Or would you want to come to terms with your life and pass on? I mean thats Yuri vs Otonashi's view points at the moment. Now I'm not going to make an arguement one way or the other on who is manipulating who because right now we don't know how Otonashi is going to operate.

Whatever my choice, I'd certainly want it to remain my choice. Plus, I probably wouldn't mind spending a few years playing around. Maybe I'd get bored, maybe I wouldn't, but I wouldn't be in a hurry to disappear. What's the rush?

[Crontica]

Originally Posted by maplehurry

I thought of using Lelouch as a defense for Otonashi since so many people admired him, oh the irony...

But of course, I never did, for various reasons.

That is like trying to compare peaches to pineapples. Lelouch was willing to sacrifice people for his own peace, Otonashi clearly wouldn't do that.

I see Otonashi more like Euphemia, both have pure intentions but end up making it worse.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

He got caught up in the moment. He certainly didn't go into that game thinking "I want to die".

Oh come on. You said they didn't want to move on. But Hinata's "caught up in the moment" shows us quite clearly that he did want to move on. He certainly wasn't thinking about winning to tournament, either.

[panzerfan]

I do not think Anh Minh managed to establish whether or not if this faith that Otonashi is basing his motive out of is that of reincarnation, wishful thinking for come what may or anything that is substantially rooted in establish religious tenants. This is of course a personal wish to see developed and not really essential.


Now, I will attempt why something like an individual setting a prior case for a suicidal scenario is relevant in this situation.

An individual that clearly had an aim to establish a precedent and is driven by a goal takes his own life, becoming a martyr arguably has advocated for others to follow this train of thought if not also to also commit martyrdom in the future. One should keep in mind that a matter of deception is at play here since a mandatory bias is imposed upon the martyr's perspective, nevermind the fact that said bias would be skewed over time. In fact, it is the responsibility of the potential followers to discern the information along with the fact that already dead culprit cannot be held liable for that misinformation, and any decision made by the individual afterwards to be completely at the volition of the said person.

A suicide lobbyist or preacher would transmit his or her words some kind of goal and with clear aim in mind, and given the case of Otonashi, the conviction to seek that end as well. I fail to see how that the added matter of deception would have made it so that Otonashi would be seen as committing a worse crime when the real matter at stake is the art of lobbying to others and advocation of one's cause, as here I would argue Caveat Emptor on the part of anyone that would listen to Otonashi, since the listeners would have not paid due diligence upon him or herself by taking prima facie words and accept the argument, which then would invoke volenti non grata. Otonashi can only be considered as an accessory as such.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Haak

Oh come on. You said they didn't want to move on. But Hinata's "caught up in the moment" shows us quite clearly that he did want to move on. He certainly wasn't thinking about winning to tournament, either.

The gap between "want to" and "actually do it" is a mile of difference through.

I had moments back when high school when i seriously want to stab someone multiple times, a close friend in fact. But i did not have chance/opportunity/ "moment" to do so. My final decision took over my desire in that case, so I let them passed and now i felt it was a ridiculous thought back then.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

The gap between "want to" and "actually do it" is a mile of difference through.

I had moments back when high school when i seriously want to stab someone multiple times, a close friend in fact. But i did not have chance/opportunity/ "moment" to do so. My final decision took over my desire in that case, so I let them passed and now i felt it was a ridiculous thought back then.

The difference is an internal factor, not an external factor.

He was actually going to do it. It was an external factor that got in the way. Yours is an internal factor that got in the way.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Haak

The difference is an internal factor, not an external factor.

He was actually going to do it. It was an external factor that got in the way. Yours is an internal factor that got in the way.

Well if someone hand me a kitchen knife back then. I may really do it (i can't say that have to be true, of course. Nothing is absolute)

Anyway back to AB, It's not yet confirmed that Hinata will disappear or intend to disappear by catching that ball through. He probably think something along the line "I'm gonna win. This feels kind of great....." *Bam, Yui jump on him*

Previous to ep 9, we all expected that once Otonashi got back his memory and clear his regret he will disappear. The guy somehow has more things to do than those from his previous life...

[Haak]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Anyway back to AB, It's not yet confirmed that Hinata will disappear or intend to disappear by catching that ball through. He probably think something along the line "I'm gonna win. This feels kind of great....." *Bam, Yui jump on him*

To be honest i think that's just intentionally ignoring exposition. I mean whilst that ball was coming towards him he clearly said "Just like back then" and "Catching this would be the best feeling ever". He may not have thought about disapearing, but I think it's pretty damn obvious why he thought catching that ball would be so great. The fact that he didn't think about disappearing even after Otonashi said he might shows just how little he really cared about disappearing in the face of finding inner peace.

All that drama about Otonashi not wanting him to disappear. The sad piano solo. Hinata looking like he's reaching for the light. All that drama for nothing?

[maplehurry]

Whatever my choice, I'd certainly want it to remain my choice.

And how many people complained when Otonashi intended to stop Hinata from catching the ball ? Hinata was clearly not happy afterward (well, to Yui who ended up being the one doing it).

/devil's advocate mode but a serious question.

I mean whilst that ball was coming towards him he clearly said "Just like back then" and "Catching this would be the best feeling ever". He may not have thought about disapearing, but I think it's pretty damn obvious why he thought catching that ball would be so great. The fact that he didn't think about disappearing even after Otonashi said he might shows just how little he really cared about disappearing in the face of finding inner peace.

After rewatching that part, I have to say you are very likely to be right. I totally missed that.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Haak

To be honest i think that's just intentionally ignoring exposition. I mean whilst that ball was coming towards him he clearly said "Just like back then" and "Catching this would be the best feeling ever". He may not have thought about disapearing, but I think it's pretty damn obvious why he thought catching that ball would be so great. The fact that he didn't think about disappearing even after Otonashi said he might shows just how little he really cared about disappearing in the face of finding inner peace.

All that drama about Otonashi not wanting him to disappear. The sad piano solo. Hinata looking like he's reaching for the light. All that drama for nothing?

Well AB often play the event to be over-dramatic (more accurately: too dramatic comparing to the norm). So it's just a suspect there.


No one would deny that they feel great during those moments (if they don't then they will not disappear in the first place). Hinata also may care little about disappearing in the face of finding inner peace. But what's about before or after that moment? Obviously not, as far as the anime's contents. Because they are showed with no regret or attempts to reach for it.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

No one would deny that they feel great during those moments (if they don't then they will not disappear in the first place). Hinata also may care little about disappearing in the face of finding inner peace. But what's about before or after that moment? Obviously not, as far as the anime's contents. Because they are showed with no regret or attempts to reach for it.

This was before Hinata discovered for sure that you disappear from finding inner peace (he found out during Naoi's tyranny). And it's not like inner peace is something you can just aim for. How is he or anyone supposed to know how to come to terms with their regrets. So far it seems they come to you. It's like saying Iwasawa didn't want to find inner peace. Except she did. If she didn't want to then she wouldn't have.

[Ashaman]

And even if they do, Otonashi shows they can stay if they really want to. Maybe.

You can't force someone into finding inner peace, but you can put them in situations that'll help them find it.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Haak

To be honest i think that's just intentionally ignoring exposition. I mean whilst that ball was coming towards him he clearly said "Just like back then" and "Catching this would be the best feeling ever". He may not have thought about disapearing, but I think it's pretty damn obvious why he thought catching that ball would be so great.

Which is what I meant about "getting caught up in the moment". He just wasn't thinking about the consequences. And, really, how often do people do things that seem like good ideas at the time, even though they ought to know better, and come to regret it?

The fact that he didn't think about disappearing even after Otonashi said he might shows just how little he really cared about disappearing in the face of finding inner peace.

It's not like he seriously weighed things. He just wasn't thinking. Like an ex-alcoholic being handed a drink. Sure, if that hadn't happened, he'd have stayed off the booze instead of going out to a liquor store. Didn't want to throw away his career, family, whatever. But now that the drink's in his hand... off the wagon we go.

Originally Posted by panzerfan

I do not think Anh Minh managed to establish whether or not if this faith that Otonashi is basing his motive out of is that of reincarnation, wishful thinking for come what may or anything that is substantially rooted in establish religious tenants. This is of course a personal wish to see developed and not really essential.

I didn't even try (begging the question of why you'd imply I did), because I don't think it's relevant. In fact, until you raised the subject, I wasn't even particularly curious about it. What matters to me is his stated aim of having everyone die, and his first move being deceit, which presages little good for the rest.

Now, I will attempt why something like an individual setting a prior case for a suicidal scenario is relevant in this situation.

An individual that clearly had an aim to establish a precedent and is driven by a goal takes his own life, becoming a martyr arguably has advocated for others to follow this train of thought if not also to also commit martyrdom in the future.

Merely committing suicide doesn't make you a martyr. Also note, that's not the track Otonashi's following. He didn't advocate, loudly and clearly, inner peace before disappearing himself to show others the way. He started by lying to his friends. We'll see where he goes from there.

One should keep in mind that a matter of deception is at play here since a mandatory bias is imposed upon the martyr's perspective, nevermind the fact that said bias would be skewed over time. In fact, it is the responsibility of the potential followers to discern the information along with the fact that already dead culprit cannot be held liable for that misinformation, and any decision made by the individual afterwards to be completely at the volition of the said person.

Except Otonashi's still alive, and still lying to the SSS about Kanade's state of mind.

A suicide lobbyist or preacher would transmit his or her words some kind of goal and with clear aim in mind, and given the case of Otonashi, the conviction to seek that end as well. I fail to see how that the added matter of deception would have made it so that Otonashi would be seen as committing a worse crime when the real matter at stake is the art of lobbying to others and advocation of one's cause,

Except I don't have a problem about people advising suicide, as long as they're being honest, which Otonashi isn't.

as here I would argue Caveat Emptor on the part of anyone that would listen to Otonashi, since the listeners would have not paid due diligence upon him or herself by taking prima facie words and accept the argument, which then would invoke volenti non grata. Otonashi can only be considered as an accessory as such.

So you've proven Otonashi can't be tried in a court of law. Well done. It's a bit of a wasted effort, though, since I don't think there are judges or even lawmakers in AB. Unless you count the NPC teachers.

My points remain: Otonashi wants everyone to die, and engaged in trickery to achieve that aim. You may heartily agree with him, think it's the greatest idea since "wouldn't it be nice if everyone was nice?", I don't really care. Despite my arguments in that direction, which I used mostly in reaction to other posts, I'm not 100% convinced he's wrong. What I refuse to do, however, is to sugarcoat what he's doing.

[monir]

I believe you've very different views about this show which works against the type of tone the show has set for itself. My understanding of what has taken place thus far is pretty similar to that of Haak's. Reading most of the posts in the thread also give the impression that most other viewers are reaching similar conclusion, so it is certainly very interesting to read your point of view because I'm unable to follow your line of thoughts.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Which is what I meant about "getting caught up in the moment". He just wasn't thinking about the consequences. And, really, how often do people do things that seem like good ideas at the time, even though they ought to know better, and come to regret it?

What consequences? It sounds more like you want to see this group together rather than trying to understand what each of this individual truly want.

It's not like he seriously weighed things. He just wasn't thinking. Like an ex-alcoholic being handed a drink. Sure, if that hadn't happened, he'd have stayed off the booze instead of going out to a liquor store. Didn't want to throw away his career, family, whatever. But now that the drink's in his hand... off the wagon we go.

The situation these collective group of people are in couldn't be any far off from the example you have given to draw a parallelism. Are you sure you aren't just arguing for the sake of arguing? The rest of your post certainly sounds like it. And it also seem the only point you are interested in driving home is the fact Otonashi might not be giving these people a chance to choose for themselves because they are committing suicide when they are choosing to disappear. Once again it seems you are rather interested at having these group stay together than trying to understand what these people may want individually. If what you say is correct, what were the point of those sob-stories every one of these individual seem to have?

I should also admit the show isn't exactly straight forward considering how little direction the story seemingly has. So the idea such as the one you are vying for sounds a bit too extreme at this juncture and seemingly out of context from whatever has been understood from this show. Hopefully, things will start to become clear in the remaining episodes.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by monir

I believe you've very different views about this show which works against the type of tone the show has set for itself.

Well, yes, the show isn't that serious. Still, the similarity between disappearance and death is there, even if it's a bit of fridge logic. Really, the only difference is that they don't leave a corpse behind.

My understanding of what has taken place thus far is pretty similar to that of Haak's. Reading most of the posts in the thread also give the impression that most other viewers are reaching similar conclusion, so it is certainly very interesting to read your point of view because I'm unable to follow your line of thoughts.

... You think the SSS's goal in life is to die? I don't. I think Yuri's beef with God is genuine. As for the others... they look to me like they're mostly along for the ride, and/or out of loyalty to Yuri for giving them something to do. And they most certainly don't want to lose their sense of self.

What consequences?

Death. Which admittedly isn't a consequence one regrets, so maybe my analogy is flawed. But are you advocating suicide just because you won't be around to really regret it?

It sounds more like you want to see this group together

Not at all.

rather than trying to understand what each of this individual truly want.

The situation these collective group of people are in couldn't be any far off from the example you have given to draw a parallelism. Are you sure you aren't just arguing for the sake of arguing? The rest of your post certainly sounds like it. And it also seem the only point you are interested in driving home is the fact Otonashi might not be giving these people a chance to choose for themselves because they are committing suicide when they are choosing to disappear. Once again it seems you are rather interested at having these group stay together than trying to understand what these people may want individually.

I don't see how my advocating people making informed choices about themselves goes against people's individual will. Quite the contrary.

If what you say is correct, what were the point of those sob-stories every one of these individual seem to have?

... Point? I don't get it. You think that because they had "sob stories", it is their sacred duty to come to term with their regrets at the cost of their lives?

I should also admit the show isn't exactly straight forward considering how little direction the story seemingly has. So the idea such as the one you are vying for sounds a bit too extreme at this juncture and seemingly out of context from whatever has been understood from this show. Hopefully, things will start to become clear in the remaining episodes.

I haven't given much thought about "group vs individuals". Neither has the show. Otonashi himself talked about them as "those guys", he didn't worry about what each individual wanted... except insofar as it applied to his self-appointed mission to make them disappear.

For myself, I don't care whether they stay together or not. What I want is for each individual to make as reasoned and informed a choice as possible about their lives, and notably about whether they want them to end. As opposed to being tricked into dying.

[maplehurry]

Reading most of the posts in the thread also give the impression that most other viewers are reaching similar conclusion,

There're also "moderates" who don't like to make any bold statement (beyond what's already obvious) until next episode.

so it is certainly very interesting to read your point of view because I'm unable to follow your line of thoughts.

I think it's like they put ghosts on the same level of existence as living people. Some people don't care so much about animals, fetus, or ghosts dying, while others do.

[monir]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

... You think the SSS's goal in life is to die? I don't. I think Yuri's beef with God is genuine. As for the others... they look to me like they're mostly along for the ride, and/or out of loyalty to Yuri for giving them something to do. And they most certainly don't want to lose their sense of self.

This is where my point of view differs. SSS's goal is vague to say the least. We have absolutely no idea what SSS is. Some of us are saying it's purgatory. Some are saying it's a form of "after life." There are also some viewers who think these are gathering of people whose bodies are probably in a comatose state in some hospital bed.

Death. Which admittedly isn't a consequence one regrets, so maybe my analogy is flawed. But are you advocating suicide just because you won't be around to really regret it?

Again, what "suicide?" We have yet to establish what SSS is. You are labeling it as suicide because you are thinking as if these people are alive similar to what you and me considers being alive. The show already established that these people have seemingly passed away. (Even that portion isn't crystal clear) Haven't they also hammered into us that people in SSS are impervious to dying?

I don't see how my advocating people making informed choices about themselves goes against people's individual will. Quite the contrary.

What I want is for each individual to make as reasoned and informed a choice as possible about their lives, and notably about whether they want them to end. As opposed to being tricked into dying.

While I agree with you to a certain degree about the above, it is too much of premature conclusion to link their "disappearance" with "death" or "suicide" just yet. I, however, agree that Otonashi should inform the rest about his finding.

Like I've said, we have absolutely no idea what direction the show is going toward to come up with such reasoning and wording them in such terms of how we understand, "death", "suicide", "being alive" etc. If you think they are committing suicide by choosing to disappear, then it means you already know what SSS is all about. On the contrary, we have no idea what SSS is about or why these people are gathered here. For all we know, these disappearance triggers another set point to their lives. We simply don't have enough information to draw any concrete conclusion that parallels to our own understanding of how we interpret living and dying. That's all.