Art: Shounen vs Shoujo

[Xion Valkyrie]

I have to say, on average Shoujo manga art is pretty bad. I'm not talking about the stylized faces or the overuse of flowers or screen tones. Most Shoujo mangaka seem to completely lack any understanding of human anatomy or the concept of perspective. This usually becomes apparent when they have to draw an action scene. The poses are often incredibly stiff, or just plain out wrong.

The art doesn't seem to improve very much over time either. Sure, line work is better, the faces are better drawn, and often times the clothing is more elaborate, but the same fundamental flaws still exist. The problem is that most Shoujo manga panels just involve characters standing around, or focus on faces. This means that the mangaka can get away with not dealing with anatomy at all, and thus, even after 100 chapters, their art still doesn't improve very much.

On the other hand, most Shounen manga are action oriented. For an action scene to be good, the poses and camera angles have to be dynamics. Thus, Shounen mangaka HAVE to draw their characters in a variety of poses. If you look at a lot of the longer running Shounen mangas, the art improves by quite a bit after 100 or so chapters. Also, a lot of Shounen manga takes place in a fantasy setting, so backgrounds and buildings are quite important if the mangaka wants to bring the world to life, so we get far more elaborate backgrounds.

That's seems to be the trend I've been noticing for shounen and shoujo manga art.

[Chiibi]

I have to say, on average Shoujo manga art is pretty bad.

On average!?
.........exactly how much of it have you read? And WHAT have you been reading!? My shelves are stocked with shoujo manga from tons of different authors and none of them look "bad" to me. And I'm also an artist myself.

So I strongly disagree. A lot of shounen art looks incredibly ugly to me. And yeah, while the action scenes are good, I think faces are more important. Shoujo is a lot more expressive so the faces NEED to be well-drawn. Shounen is actiony so they don't worry about expressions that much. Everyone draws to what fits. For example, I have yet to see a crying scene in a shounen manga that looks remotely attractive. In shoujo, they are beautiful and full of emotion.

And it does all depend on which shoujo manga authors you're looking at. My favorite ones, persay, have amazing art. I have no complaints about their artwork itself. Variety in character design, a little bit, but that's a different matter. And they certainly DO improve over time!!

[james0246]

This is simply another case of needing to read more manga. There are plenty of great, sometimes even beautiful, shoujo and shounen titles; then again, there are plenty of butt-ugly shounen and shoujo titles.

That being said, a key factor for artwork is always time, and those manga with superior artwork are often the series that come out bi-monthly, monthly, or quarterly.

[Bassoonicmayhem]

A fact has to be stated: shounen and shoujo aren't art types, but archetypes to market to. Both are marketed to different groups within society. Shounen's target audience is usually young boys to young adult males while Shoujo is targeted mainly to preteen girls to young adult women. What’s esthetically pleasing is in the eye of the beholder, but I usually prefer the looks of shoujo manga than that of shounen, unless it’s Bleach; Tite Kubo is the only exception.

My way of looking at it is Shounen is usually much more cartoony when it comes to conveying what the characters actually look like (Death Note is an exception). Two prime examples would be One Piece and Dragon Ball. Both manga convey action sequences extremely well but the overall character design is childish and cartoony. It’s not terrible to look at; it’s just the way the manga-ka knows how to draw.

Shoujo manga on the other hand, usually don’t take the same route shounen manga’s do and that’s write a story and revolving it around fighting. Shoujos almost are always about romance, somewhere along the lines. The characters will look pretty for pretty’s sake and I’m okay with that.

And also Shoujo’s are commonly drawn by women, while shounen’s are common drawn by men (FMA and D.Gray Man are two shounen not drawn by men I can think of) so I also think that also attributes to it as well. Which is better esthetically? I don’t know; I prefer shoujo, but I find myself reading more shounen.

[Ash Falls Town]

Originally Posted by james0246

That being said, a key factor for artwork is always time, and those manga with superior artwork are often the series that come out bi-monthly, monthly, or quarterly.

This is merely tangentially related but are there even any weekly shoujo manga magazines? I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Regardless monthly manga can still look worse and different art styles look better to some people than others.

[Xion Valkyrie]

I haven't read any shoujo lately, but about 2 years back I went on a shoujo binge and read most of the popular titles (classics + newer ones).

Anyways, off the top of the head, Shoujo manga that I feel has good art:
Anything by Clamp
Anything by Kamio Youko
Stuff by Aihara Miki (I hate her stories though. Reading Hot Gimmick really put me off to shoujo for a while)

Clamp has come along way from their earlier days. Especially after Tsubasa, their abilities to render anything imaginable pretty much makes them one of the cornerstones of manga art. Even though their anatomy is GREATLY exaggerated, you can still tell they understand human anatomy to a degree, which is showcased when they draw their fight scenes.

Kamio Youko's claim to fame is Hana Yori Dango, which started off with some what off putting art (although it's mostly a style issue, it's totally retro), but developed into something very nice and soothing to look at. She can do a variety of settings well, with good backgrounds and can draw decent non-static poses later on. A lot of character variety too.

Aihara Miki seems a bit more generic, but she does very good backgrounds and has a lot of variety in terms of poses and faces.

Anyways, the thing that shoujo art does best is really eyes, hair, and clothing. Most of this is rendered very well, and there's generally improvement in this area as the series goes on. Basically, just like Bassoonicmayhem says, they look pretty for pretty's sake. This works fine since most shoujo manga panels consist either of characters standing around while looking pretty, or closeups of characters faces. Most poses are usually limited to standing characters with varying arm motions, usually from the shoulders up.

There's also a significant lack of different body types in shoujo manga. Almost everyone has the the thin, lanky build, just with different heights. Usually this can be covered up with clothing. However, the few times certain shoujo manga do delve into, say, beach stories, the anatomical issues immediately become apparent.

Another instance where shoujo manga really falls short on is action scenes. Usually shoujo manga doesn't involve much action, but sometimes the situation calls for it. In these instances, more dyamic poses are involved, and for a lot of the shoujo manga I've read, their artists really seem to struggle. Forshortening mistakes are generally the biggest ones, and badly rendered forshortening is incredibly jarring. This isn't that big of a deal, but some shoujo manga has an emphasis on action, and their failure to really render it effectively makes the said action really lackluster. Only Clamp seems to be able to do action well, and that's really only in Tsubasa, which is a shounen title.

Faces are another thing. Shoujo mangaka can draw very pretty faces, but when they have to draw adults and/or ugly people, they sort of fall flat. Over stylization of the faces is probably the main culprit, as they don't really understand underlying facial structure. I've seen a lot of shoujo manga where older people have the same face as younger people, but with smaller eyes and wrinkles.

Anyways, styles have a lot to do with how one personally perceives art as good or bad. I can see why people say shounen art is 'ugly' compared to shoujo art. However, if we put style aside and analyze the art from a purely technical perspective, then most shoujo art is technically less impressive than shounen art.

I mean, if you even just look at the shounen jump lineup, most of them are technically much better most shoujo titles, if you put aside style.

Of course, I haven't really been keeping up with Shoujo titles since then, so counter examples would be great =)

[SilverSyko]

It's all a matter of preference I'd say. I personally don't look down on either style, because if that's how the artist knows how to draw, then let them draw that way.

It makes sense for the shoujo style to look awkwardly drawn in other areas because the face (ecpecially the eyes) are what's supposed to draw the observer's attention.

I DO find the shoujo style incredibly overrated though. Not that I don't like it, it's just used too much in the past decade or so. I find it very shallow when people bash a series just because it's not drawn in a style like or similar to it.

As long as a manga/anime can keep me interested and entertained for it's entire run I am content with it.~

[Xion Valkyrie]

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

It's all a matter of preference I'd say. I personally don't look down on either style, because if that's how the artist knows how to draw, then let them draw that way.

It makes sense for the shoujo style to look awkwardly drawn in other areas because the face (ecpecially the eyes) are what's supposed to draw the observer's attention.

I DO find the shoujo style incredibly overrated though. Not that I don't like it, it's just used too much in the past decade or so. I find it very shallow when people bash a series just because it's not drawn in a style like or similar to it.

As long as a manga/anime can keep me interested and entertained for it's entire run I am content with it.~

I'm not really bashing the style, I'm just pointing out technical faults that seem to plague most shoujo manga.

Anyways, is there a shoujo equivalent of Shounen Jump?

[SilverSyko]

Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie

I'm not really bashing the style, I'm just pointing out technical faults that seem to plague most shoujo manga.

Anyways, is there a shoujo equivalent of Shounen Jump?

Well I wasn't really implying that you were bashing anything. I was talking about the opposite from what you're saying really. xD;

And yes, Sheuisha's shoujo magazine that runs alongside Shounen Jump is called Margaret.

[Bassoonicmayhem]

I read both shounen and shoujo on a regular basis. They both tell stories differently or really beat around the bush. Shoujo titles I have read and/or come across are High School Debut, Skip Beat!, Fruits Basket, Mixed Vegetables, Chobits, Vampire Knight, Oran High School Host Club, and (I think) Hana Kimi. There are more, but those are the ones I can think of off of the top of my head. In all of them, I can agree, the characters are all thin and lanky, and the only thing that diversifies them is height, but can you really say there’s much of a difference in shounen? The only shounen (if you can even call it that) I can think of that has a chubby character in it, is Negima, and that’s primarily an ecchi. (That character is Satsuki Yotsuba, by the way.)

Both shounen and shoujo tend to draw lanky and thin characters because it’s easier and the characters, in both, usually need to be athletically fit for whatever their goals maybe. In one of the later volumes of High School Debut... (Possible spoiler; I don't name names, but I don't want to piss anyone off either.)

Spoiler for High School Debut Volume 11:

the protagonist becomes depressed and believes that her boyfriend is cheating on her and beings to stress eat. The manga-ka doesn’t ignore this. In the next few chapters, the protagonist has to work off the weight she gain (which was dramatically a lot. ) and thusly returns to her normal body type.

I know that shounen is infamous for having antagonists (and protagonists) with oddly shaped bodies, which have these giant muscles that no normal person could. I think, since shoujo are primarily romance based and not fantasy/fighting type; their characters look more ‘normal’ and ‘human’ than in a shounen. Whether the character is supposed to remind you of that catty bitch in high school or if the character is supposed to be prince charming, most of the time, shoujo keeps the characters in proportion to their world.

Shoujos are dialogue based. There usually isn’t supposed to be action, unless it’s like Vampire Knight. I think it has some action. I’m not a fan on the series once it got a little too freaky for me. But anyway, like I was saying, shoujo is more or less about exploring the internal conflict within multiple characters, but usually the main protagonist~ it’s about love and romance and trying to get Mr. Perfect to see that you’re Miss Right.

Unlike the fight and conquer that is shounen, shoujo is about slow pace cliffhangers and making the reader want to kill the manga-ka for doing such acts of tracery. It’s not about the art, which is the funny thing. Go get a copy of Fruits Basket. It’s some of the most cartoony drawing I’ve ever seen and I can even say that I draw better than that, but Natsuki Takaya drew a compelling story that I couldn’t put down and not a lot of other girls either I guess, since it lasted 23 volumes.

Anyway, I'm not saying I hate shounen. I love it. I hate dialogue honestly, but I think a good balance of shounen and shoujo keeps a person balanced as well.

Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie

Anyways, is there a shoujo equivalent of Shounen Jump?

Shoujo Beat.

[Zu Ra]

I actually have to agree with Chibi for once *__* . Why is this thread veering towards SHONEN VS SHOJO ? The Focus is on ART


Speaking of art I don't read much shojo I only followed a few here and there . But I do read summaries and check the covers .. done that quite a lot . I do watch / read a lot of Shonen . From my observations of the both genre I have to say by and large, Shojo art is far more superior . Art is influenced by Culture and Surroundings more so if its commercial . Art follows trends is influenced by them . Comparing art from 90s to early 2K would be an unjust comparison . If you compare recent shojo mangas to shonen the difference in art quality is quite large . Never I have come across such nicely done Shonen Titles .

Spoiler for Some More :

[Chiibi]

I'm just pointing out technical faults that seem to plague most shoujo manga.

I strongly dislike the word "most" when someone talks about anything. You SHOULD say "a lot".

Only Clamp seems to be able to do action well, and that's really only in Tsubasa, which is a shounen title.

.........somebody REALLY needs to read some Tanemura Arina or Matsuri Hino.

Shoujo mangaka can draw very pretty faces, but when they have to draw adults and/or ugly people, they sort of fall flat.

somebody really reeeally needs to read some Tanemura Arina or Natsumi Andou. Besides, I wouldn't use "old people" as a good example. Shounen artists like to draw them as one-foot tall prunes....lol what is up with that!?

I actually have to agree with Chibi for once *__*

Say what? Do you usually disagree with me?

[blue skies]

Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie

Most Shoujo mangaka seem to completely lack any understanding of human anatomy or the concept of perspective.

Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie

Anyways, off the top of the head, Shoujo manga that I feel has good art:
Anything by Clamp

I lol'd a little. If you want to talk about realistic human anatomy, CLAMP is hardly a good example, with their characters' elongated bodies and tapering limbs.

With CLAMP (and others), it's more of a stylistic thing than a deliberate disregard for anatomical proportions. And I'm with you -- I think it works quite well, although I know some people can't stand it. One of the reasons I read manga is for the cool art; if everyone had a perfectly normal body, I wouldn't like it so much. Different styles are refreshing. And just awesome all around. But again, what floats my boat may not float someone else's (or vice versa).

Like everyone's already said (and better than I can), it's really just personal preferences and not enough exposure to the genre. There are plenty of gorgeous shoujo, just as there are plenty of gorgeous shounen. And, of course, plenty of lackluster manga from both genres.

The problem is that most Shoujo manga panels just involve characters standing around, or focus on faces. This means that the mangaka can get away with not dealing with anatomy at all, and thus, even after 100 chapters, their art still doesn't improve very much.

On the other hand, most Shounen manga are action oriented. For an action scene to be good, the poses and camera angles have to be dynamics. Thus, Shounen mangaka HAVE to draw their characters in a variety of poses. If you look at a lot of the longer running Shounen mangas, the art improves by quite a bit after 100 or so chapters.

Like Bassoonicmayhem already said, shoujo and shounen tend to focus on different things. Shoujo is often slower-paced and focuses much more on dialogue and the characters' interactions, while shounen is usually (but not always) more action-oriented. Graphic depictions of exploding buildings and bulging biceps don't matter in (most) shoujo. What matters are the drama, dialogue and subtleties.

Then again, while romance is typically going to be a factor in shoujo, many of them throw in other elements -- like action, fantasy, tragedy and even sci-fi -- more often associated with shounen (Basara, X/1999, Coelacanth), and some of them even eschew romance altogether (Natsume Yuujinchou). Similarly, some shounen that aren't Bleach or Naruto incorporate elements that are so totally atypical of the genre people sometimes mistake them for shoujo. Example: Nabari no Ou, in which fighting gets put on the back burner and character interactions/dialogue/~emotions~ come first. It also has some of the most gorgeous art I've ever seen in shounen manga.

Awesome art is there in any genre. But, like one may have to dig a little to find a shoujo that isn't all sparkles and roses or shounen that doesn't involve swords and blowing stuff up, a little digging may also be in order to find exceptional art.

Also, a lot of Shounen manga takes place in a fantasy setting, so backgrounds and buildings are quite important if the mangaka wants to bring the world to life, so we get far more elaborate backgrounds.

Oh, sweet shrieking lord, the Bleach jokes I could make.

[Falkor]

Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie

I have to say, on average Shoujo manga art is pretty bad. I'm not talking about the stylized faces or the overuse of flowers or screen tones. Most Shoujo mangaka seem to completely lack any understanding of human anatomy or the concept of perspective. This usually becomes apparent when they have to draw an action scene. The poses are often incredibly stiff, or just plain out wrong.

The art doesn't seem to improve very much over time either. Sure, line work is better, the faces are better drawn, and often times the clothing is more elaborate, but the same fundamental flaws still exist. The problem is that most Shoujo manga panels just involve characters standing around, or focus on faces. This means that the mangaka can get away with not dealing with anatomy at all, and thus, even after 100 chapters, their art still doesn't improve very much.

On the other hand, most Shounen manga are action oriented. For an action scene to be good, the poses and camera angles have to be dynamics. Thus, Shounen mangaka HAVE to draw their characters in a variety of poses. If you look at a lot of the longer running Shounen mangas, the art improves by quite a bit after 100 or so chapters. Also, a lot of Shounen manga takes place in a fantasy setting, so backgrounds and buildings are quite important if the mangaka wants to bring the world to life, so we get far more elaborate backgrounds.

That's seems to be the trend I've been noticing for shounen and shoujo manga art.

I've seen good and bad stuff from both ends. you are slightly generalizing the whole situation. art in those manga labeled as shoujo is not necessarily worse than those labeled as shounen, and the opposite can be said as well. mind you, I don't read much shoujo manga. but i agree with the statement james made. and yes, there's a lot of stuff you haven't read yet.

first of all, I'm pretty sure you are aware that art is a broad term, and it may encompass a lot more aspects than just character designs and how well they are drawn, which seems to be the issues you are arguing about. what about the background art (or negative space)? what about the paneling? what about the balance of darks and lights? what about the composition? what about the storytelling? what about the harmony? hey, that's art too; but you didn't really address any of this in your discussion about "art"---or you chose to ignore it for your convenience. :P I know that these aspects are better evaluated on individual basis, and so is the criteria you used. why would you address proportions and perspective from a label point of view, when it's done differently from artist to artist? yes, there might be manga labeled as shoujo that do not quite address proportions or perspective, and so is the same situation for those labeled as shonen.

Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie

**snipped**

Anyways, styles have a lot to do with how one personally perceives art as good or bad.

style more often than not is going to determine your preference for a particular work, not exactly whether you are going to perceive it as good or bad.

I can see why people say shounen art is 'ugly' compared to shoujo art. However, if we put style aside and analyze the art from a purely technical perspective, then most shoujo art is technically less impressive than shounen art.

from a "purely technical perspective" you should have included things like background art, paneling, balance of dark and lights, composition, etc... as part of your argument. you haven't really discussed anything that I would consider "technical" in the strict sense of the word.

[Xion Valkyrie]

Anyways, after seeing all your posts, I've decided that I need to check out more shoujo manga.

[Ichihara Asako]

Since we're all generalising, I'd say I dislike shoujo character design more, as a whole. Particularly faces. While there is good stuff, most of it simply isn't to my taste. Which is troubling sometimes since I love the stories, but the art can be really offputting sometimes (eg. Aishiteruzu Baby). But I don't condemn shoujo for it, I just accept the fact the character designs aren't to my likings, and focus on the story instead.