Sword Art Online - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

though love doesn't necessarily need a reason either.

Indeed. "The heart has its reasons of which reason does not know." - Me in 1846

[grey_moon]

Wow such a great episode, Asuna really shined when she faced the Front, but also I loved how Kirito softly supported her several times during the episode, they make a really nice couple.

Yui is a great enigma, I hope she doesn't become some sort of deux ex machina.....

[SilverSyko]

Bleh. After that great episode last week, it's a bit disappointing to delve back into the lovey-dovey fluff and cuteness here. I mean thankfully the romance scenes didn't last TOO long and as long as they are uncommon from now on I have no complaints, but the addition of this new loli character has me disgruntled. The only thing about her that I'm really interested in is just what the hell she actually is. (Getting Aura vibes.)

And again, my biggest problem with this series is just how incredibly inconsistent the game's realism is. I know I keep saying that but it's just getting REALLY silly now. This episode had hardly any indications they were inside a game at all, and as soon as those army men came in demanding taxes be paid, that just cut it for me. It's a goddamn MMO guys, treat it like one.

Anyway, hopefully this is just a bump on the road for me. I don't expect those realism inconsistencies to be fixed anytime soon, but at least there's a lot of time to get back to what I actually find entertaining about this show.

[Quadratic]

Originally Posted by Adigard

Spoken like someone who has never been, nor never talked to, nor ever read things written by / for a teenaged girl.

Hmm, ironic, isn't that pretty much exactly what Asuna is?

Fairly certain the knight-in-shining armor trope is one of the oldest romance tropes out there..... Except maybe for the 'club the girl and drag her back to your cave' trope.

Hey, I made that edit proving I am aware of this trope .
I just forget people still treat this as a romance direction, considering how vocal people are in this day and age about knight-in-shining-armor tropes, and I'm (probably falsely) getting the impression some people are looking for a more grounded relationship development.
Anyway, this is definitely one of those put a twist on the old trope, though I can't say it hasn't been done before as well.

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

And again, my biggest problem with this series is just how incredibly inconsistent the game's realism is. I know I keep saying that but it's just getting REALLY silly now. This episode had hardly any indications they were inside a game at all, and as soon as those army men came in demanding taxes be paid, that just cut it for me. It's a goddamn MMO guys, treat it like one.

But that's the point, nearly 2 years living in a VR world, what is (still) "real" and what's a game?

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

...as soon as those army men came in demanding taxes be paid, that just cut it for me. It's a goddamn MMO guys, treat it like one.

Keep in mind that the first floor is basically a world on its own -- a world of people keeping themselves isolated from the rest of the game and just waiting it out. So it doesn't surprise me that some lowlifes took advantage of the people there, and also that people on that floor wouldn't necessarily "treat it like an MMO". It's a different world down there.


Edit: On another topic, I don't really see the romance as a "knight in shining armour" thing -- isn't it the reverse of that? She's not attracted to him because he's a knight, but because he's someone who taught her how to live in the game. Sure, it's nice that he can fight along side her, but I don't think that was a key element of the attraction. If anything, it's a cause of stress for her.

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

And again, my biggest problem with this series is just how incredibly inconsistent the game's realism is. I know I keep saying that but it's just getting REALLY silly now. This episode had hardly any indications they were inside a game at all, and as soon as those army men came in demanding taxes be paid, that just cut it for me. It's a goddamn MMO guys, treat it like one.

...it's players with higher leveled gear bullying other players and running an extortion racket. That's nothing new.

Evodently, you have never heard of or played EVE Online, where players do this kind of shit on much larger scales on a frequent basis. (Hell, there are even players running 419 scams in EVE!)

[Clarste]

The mechanics are a game, but the people are people. If people want to extort money from others and think they have the ability to, then they will. The fact that they're calling them taxes is interesting, since it implies that they think of themselves as a legitimate government, but I'm sure we'll see more of the Army in the future. So there's time to explain it.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

This strikes me as a bit of a strange comment. She's someone he can trust completely, she saved his life, she complements his weaknesses, and they pledged to protect each other through the game and beyond. He'd probably see her as an ideal partner, in addition to the fact that she's obviously beautiful and clearly in love with him. So... I'm not sure if that's "shallow", but seems like a pretty good "reason" for loving someone... though love doesn't necessarily need a reason either. I've never seen it as one-sided, but equal. He's not exactly the most sociable or expressive person, though, so I'm not sure if we can expect him to be as open about it.

Well, why can he trust her completely? Why is she special to him, moreso than anyone else he's met? The stuff about pledging to protect each other and her saving his life are all recent developments, literally the day before he proposed marriage. While it's easy to imagine Asuna's side of a romance developing over two years, it's unclear how Kirito felt about it all this time. And if he really proposed marriage just because she saved his life the night before I'd call that pretty shallow.

That said, it's true that love doesn't need a reason.

[Rakshasa]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

This strikes me as a bit of a strange comment. She's someone he can trust completely, she saved his life, she complements his weaknesses, and they pledged to protect each other through the game and beyond. He'd probably see her as an ideal partner, in addition to the fact that she's obviously beautiful and clearly in love with him. So... I'm not sure if that's "shallow", but seems like a pretty good "reason" for loving someone... though love doesn't necessarily need a reason either. I've never seen it as one-sided, but equal. He's not exactly the most sociable or expressive person, though, so I'm not sure if we can expect him to be as open about it.

Why are people needing "reasons" for love?

They have a 2 year history of sporadic interaction, and both have gone through some big changes to how they handle life. And as he told Agil back in the 'enjoy a nap' episode, he thought she didn't like him cause they always ended up arguing and stuff.

Basically if you'd taken out the fighting parts and replaced them with some other kinds of events to induce interaction, it would be a pretty believable love story.

Originally Posted by Adigard

Assuming she's a player, she would have been trapped in a death game at the age of 8... remember the death game bit... and the fact that she's apparently wandering the wilds without a way to eat / caretakers. I'd say the trauma / regression bit makes sense.

Assuming something else isn't going on.

She said something about being trapped in a dark place, so likely either she died very early on and got resurrected after two years, or she was stuck there from the beginning. Either a bug, or Kayaba didn't want to kill off the kid when she died, or the dead players are all trapped.

Basically it's like putting an 8 year old kid in a sensory deprivation tank for 2 years, and then calling her retarded when she has some issues after getting out.

[mod edit: please avoid the personal attack]

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Clarste

Well, why can he trust her completely? Why is she special to him, moreso than anyone else he's met? The stuff about pledging to protect each other and her saving his life are all recent developments, literally the day before he proposed marriage. While it's easy to imagine Asuna's side of a romance developing over two years, it's unclear how Kirito felt about it all this time. And if he really proposed marriage just because she saved his life the night before I'd call that pretty shallow.

That said, it's true that love doesn't need a reason.

He can trust her completely because he's fought along side her, and he's worked along side her. They make a good team. I think it's not necessarily a case where she totally changed his world, but where he realized that he wants to be by her side. I don't think his pledge was just the result of her saving his life, but also part of his on-going realization about having reached his limits as a solo player, part of the progression started in earnest in Episode 8.

But I guess the truth is that we don't really get a lot of his thoughts on the matter before the confession, so it isn't as easy to see. I don't think that necessarily means that his reasons are shallow... but they aren't made as clear upfront as they were with Asuna. Hopefully that'll be explored more going forward, but I guess it could very well be "I suddenly realized that I didn't want to be apart from her" and that was enough. I've known people in real life for whom it was like that too.

[SilverSyko]

Originally Posted by Quadratic

But that's the point, nearly 2 years living in a VR world, what is (still) "real" and what's a game?

That would work only if it wasn't totally obvious the virtual world wasn't real, and in this case, it's not. Everyone in the game is aware that none of what they are currently experiencing is real, their bodies are only programmed to recognize it as so thanks to their helmets. The only exceptions that probably think otherwise are the ones who went insane after Kayaba made his announcement back at the beginning. (AKA PK guild members)

Keep in mind that the first floor is basically a world on its own -- a world of people keeping themselves isolated from the rest of the game and just waiting it out. So it doesn't surprise me that some lowlifes took advantage of the people there, and also that people on that floor wouldn't necessarily "treat it like an MMO". It's a different world down there.

No I don't really agree. I'd say the people who are on the first floor are people who aren't incredibly avid gamers, therefore they largely should be the ones to "treat is as an MMO" more than anyone else, because that's all it is to them.

Evodently, you have never heard of or played EVE Online, where players do this kind of shit on much larger scales on a frequent basis. (Hell, there are even players running 419 scams in EVE!)

I don't play MMO's so I don't know about the "scene" as well as people who do would, but I have learnt a lot about them thanks to various other media, so I figure I'm knowledgeable enough to make my own judgement calls.

The mechanics are a game, but the people are people. If people want to extort money from others and think they have the ability to, then they will.

If they weren't army soldiers extorting virtual money, out of them I'd probably be able to accept it. What is that going to accomplish? Getting them better items to protect people? Then why are they extorting money from folks if they're trying to protect everyone?

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

If they weren't army soldiers extorting virtual money, out of them I'd probably be able to accept it. What is that going to accomplish? Getting them better items to protect people? Then why are they extorting money from folks if they're trying to protect everyone?

As if people don't pay real money to buy game money every day. That's a huge industry, really. In the end, the only thing that matters is value. If you live completely in a game, and game money is gonna let you buy game luxuries for your game life, why wouldn't you want game money? It has real value.

And they call themselves the Army but it's pretty obvious that they're just a bunch of thugs. Who cares what they call themselves?

[Rakshasa]

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

That would work only if it wasn't totally obvious the virtual world wasn't real, and in this case, it's not. Everyone in the game is aware that none of what they are currently experiencing is real, their bodies are only programmed to recognize it as so thanks to their helmets. The only exceptions that probably think otherwise are the ones who went insane after Kayaba made his announcement back at the beginning. (AKA PK guild members)

No I don't really agree. I'd say the people who are on the first floor are people who aren't incredibly avid gamers, therefore they largely should be the ones to "treat is as an MMO" more than anyone else, because that's all it is to them.

You seem to underestimate the ability of the human mind to delude itself, seeming instead to go for the 'humans are rational' fallacy that plagued the natural philosophers of our time.

It seems pretty obvious that the non-avid gamers would be quicker to accept SAO as a real world considering that they're not on the front lines, dealing with stats and game mechanics.

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

I don't play MMO's so I don't know about the "scene" as well as people who do would, but I have learnt a lot about them thanks to various other media, so I figure I'm knowledgeable enough to make my own judgement calls.

If they weren't army soldiers extorting virtual money, out of them I'd probably be able to accept it. What is that going to accomplish? Getting them better items to protect people? Then why are they extorting money from folks if they're trying to protect everyone?

If you know nothing about MMO's, then who are you to comment on what would and wouldn't happen in one?

Basically the comparison to EVE Online is probably the best one, as that is also a free-for-all game with the same kinds of safe / unsafe zones and heavy (but non-perma) death penalties. The kinds of social structures, money / resource collection schemes and scams, stratification of players and such give true insight into how humans act and organize.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

No I don't really agree. I'd say the people who are on the first floor are people who aren't incredibly avid gamers, therefore they largely should be the ones to "treat is as an MMO" more than anyone else, because that's all it is to them.

So... I don't really understand what you're expecting. These are people who generally haven't gone out to explore the world, and are staying back on the first floor scared. Thugs argue that they're the ones bringing the game closer to an end, and "all they ask" is for a bit of "financial support" in exchange. This is a classic case of bullies preying on the weak, and the people who never venture out in the game are weak. Even if they can't do damage to people in the town, they can still make their lives miserable through this sort of "non-physical" harassment. What are the affected players going to do; call a GM?

What exactly about this whole thing seems unrealistic to you?

[Somnus]

Being a romance buff, we've reached my favourite part of the series, and it was adapted perfectly I'd say. I pretty much had a huge grin plastered on my face the entire time. This is definitely not a series where you would expect a rare instance "post-couple established" development, let alone this early. Though I do have to agree that being a .hack fan really makes you think of Aura when you look at Yui (white dress and all).

All in all, after you factor in my huge bias and undying love for this part of the LN I couldn't give it anything less than 10/10.


I'd also like to reply to some earlier posts:

Originally Posted by Wintersun

i hate yui... retarded kid

My love for SAO aside, this is a really lame attitude to have. Period. Of course, I'm not really here to lecture you on personality traits that rub me the wrong way, but it would do you good to take two seconds out of your life to consider that there are reasons that things are the way they are. Whether it's a plot that's not fully fleshed out, or a person's circumstance; thoughtfulness, respect and understanding go a long way.

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

And again, my biggest problem with this series is just how incredibly inconsistent the game's realism is. I know I keep saying that but it's just getting REALLY silly now. This episode had hardly any indications they were inside a game at all, and as soon as those army men came in demanding taxes be paid, that just cut it for me. It's a goddamn MMO guys, treat it like one.

Anyway, hopefully this is just a bump on the road for me. I don't expect those realism inconsistencies to be fixed anytime soon, but at least there's a lot of time to get back to what I actually find entertaining about this show.

Hate to call you out on this, and repeat what some have pointed out already, but there are plenty of MMOs that are built for these types of things, or have similar experiences built-in. Surely some have them more fleshed out than others, but SAO is supposed to be the latest and greatest in MMO technology, and there's no reason to believe that certain aspects of life simulation wouldn't be included in this.

As for the tax thing, again, that's no stranger to MMOs (or life, really). The weak get bullied by the strong, and when you've been in this "game" for 2 years straight, it's no longer just a game. It's your life. Lastly, to further drive that point home (and possibly differs based on subs source), but even someone like Asuna is starting to say "if we get out."

[miroku2192]

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

That would work only if it wasn't totally obvious the virtual world wasn't real, and in this case, it's not. Everyone in the game is aware that none of what they are currently experiencing is real, their bodies are only programmed to recognize it as so thanks to their helmets. The only exceptions that probably think otherwise are the ones who went insane after Kayaba made his announcement back at the beginning. (AKA PK guild members)



No I don't really agree. I'd say the people who are on the first floor are people who aren't incredibly avid gamers, therefore they largely should be the ones to "treat is as an MMO" more than anyone else, because that's all it is to them.



I don't play MMO's so I don't know about the "scene" as well as people who do would, but I have learnt a lot about them thanks to various other media, so I figure I'm knowledgeable enough to make my own judgement calls.



If they weren't army soldiers extorting virtual money, out of them I'd probably be able to accept it. What is that going to accomplish? Getting them better items to protect people? Then why are they extorting money from folks if they're trying to protect everyone?

Try spending 2 years immersed in a game. You pretty much have all your senses with the exception of pain it seems. You live day and night in this world. Even if you "know" it's a virtual world, 2 years is a long time, and it's bound to make you question where and what reality is anymore. Add on to the fact that dying in this "virtual world" supposedly equates to death in your so called "real world". In that sense, this "virtual" world is just as real as the "real world". Stop acting like a know-it-all and actually put yourself into their position and think about it. Not as easy to be so level-headed.

Not avid gamers, risk-adverse, call 'em what you want. But they're most likely afraid to die too, and so, even if they try to treat this like an MMO, why should they? It's not just a game. Your life is on the line.

As for your problem with the soldiers. Oh Fuc*ing come on bro, are you serious? You telling me theres no corruption in our government? No corruption in our army? This is a world where being an "army member" isn't the same as being in the army in your so-called "real world". Even IN our real world, we have racism + corruption in the army, what's to stop people in the game from power tripping and bullying people?

[zaz122]

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

That would work only if it wasn't totally obvious the virtual world wasn't real, and in this case, it's not. Everyone in the game is aware that none of what they are currently experiencing is real, their bodies are only programmed to recognize it as so thanks to their helmets.

But isn't that the point though? After two years of living in this "game" people have started to accept it as a legitimate reality. Even though they are just polygons and data, they have realized that what they experience in game, is no less real from what they would experience "in real life" (I personally hate this term.)

[Endless Soul]

Admittedly, when they were walking along the path in the woods (Well, Kirito was doing the walking actually) I was totally expecting them to be pounced by some monster. Thankfully I was wrong about that.

6,000 players left in the game, with about 2,000 hanging around in the Town of Beginnings. I noticed that it seemed to be mostly older players, such as the fishermen.

I don't know what to make of Yui at all.

Endless "Angry Asuna" Soul

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by Endless Soul

Admittedly, when they were walking along the path in the woods (Well, Kirito was doing the walking actually) I was totally expecting them to be pounced by some monster. Thankfully I was wrong about that.

Would a monster at this level even be able to hurt them? They could probably have ignored it and kept walking.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Endless Soul

6,000 players left in the game, with about 2,000 hanging around in the Town of Beginnings. I noticed that it seemed to be mostly older players, such as the fishermen.

Well, the fishermen were on the same floor as Kirito & Asuna's cottage (floor 22, IIRC). The Town of Beginnings seemed oddly barren, save for the NPCs and the people they saved. Perhaps they're trying to imply this is because the Army has terrorized the town, so people generally stay indoors?

[Kamui04]

Originally Posted by Clarste

The mechanics are a game, but the people are people. If people want to extort money from others and think they have the ability to, then they will. The fact that they're calling them taxes is interesting, since it implies that they think of themselves as a legitimate government, but I'm sure we'll see more of the Army in the future. So there's time to explain it.

After what Asuna did to those guy I'm sure we'll see more of them. But it isn't strange that they feel themselves as a legitimate government, since there aren't GMs around keeping order, so someone had to fill the role. Just like how the japanese Yakuza originated, criminals filling in the role of guardians and keeping order in the places where the government didn't reach and at the same time extorting protection money from the people. But in the end like people say all politicians are nothing more than rats in a suit.