[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Judoh]

I don't want to suspect Natuhi and Krauss either I just wanted to explain what the circles are drawn with. Just because they were the first to mention what could be used to make them doesn't mean they were to first to think of it.

It could also be mackerel if you want to go really early on, but I doubt that's sticky enough to look like mucus or paint.

Edit: Kumasawa and Maria are my favorite circle artists though.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Spoiler for about the fake blood:

You think Kinzo had enough of those... fruits, I think they are... stored to make all that material used? I guess it's possible.

Originally Posted by TeeHee

[*]Rosa NEVER opened her envelope given to her by Beatrice, not even in front of her siblings. She held on to it.... and then she sneakily put the envelope in place per the threat/instruction of person X.

...Actually, although I never thought of that, I think that was supposed to be obvious. We do never see that letter again.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

You think Kinzo had enough of those... fruits, I think they are... stored to make all that material used? I guess it's possible.

Actually it's not a fruit it's a nut, and it's not edible your not supposed to swallow it or drink it. It's described as being used in a similar way to chewing tobacco or gum. It should be safe to store if it's kept dry.

Originally Posted by Teehee

[*]Rosa NEVER opened her envelope given to her by Beatrice, not even in front of her siblings. She held on to it.... and then she sneakily put the envelope in place per the threat/instruction of person X.

I was wondering about this envelope too.

I was also looking for alternate reasons why they went to the chapel in the first place.

Um.. do you beleive Shannon really found that memo that said "chapel" after the 1st twilight? Because they show a scene with her finding a memo, but Genji doesn't mention it to Rosa. In fact I don't think it was ever mentioned again after that. It wasn't mentioned by anyone, not even the meta characters. So If that's a fictional event than the reason for going to the chapel just seems strange. This could show that the servants knew the chapel was unlocked the whole time though. If that's true though what would possess Genji to go to the chapel and report to Rosa about the strange thing he found if there was no memo? Why would anyone go out in a typhoon for that anyway? Go out into the storm because of a memo? Doesn't that seem strange? It would be one thing if it was a threatening letter that Shannon found, or if they said in the story that memos like that have been left before and that would give us a reason for believing they'd check it out because it's urgent, but nothing like that ever happens. There's no foreshadowing for it in that episode. Besides wouldn't you search the mansion and the guesthouse first to see if they might have come back?

Episode 2 is supposed to be difficult right? Maybe this is why it's so hard. How can we make sense of who did the murders if we haven't even thought about other reasons for why the corpses were even found? Or even question what happened to make anyone find them? Isn't this important?

[luckyssol]

Ok, here’s my complete theory on episode 4:
Episode 4 Theory

Here a brief summary for those who don’t want to read it all:

Spoiler for ”Kill List”:

First Twilight
Shannon kills Genji
Kanon kills Hideyoshi
Shannon kills Rudolf
Kanon kills Eva
Shannon kills Natsuhi
Kanon kills Rosa

Second Twilight
Jessica kills George
Maria drinks poison

Fourth Twilight
Kyrie kills Kanon

Kyrie is suit Beatrice
Shannon is non-suit Beatrice

Fifth Twilight
Shannon kills Kyrie

Sixth Twilight
Shannon kills Krauss

Seventh Twilight
Jessica kills Gohda

Second Twilight
Jessica kills Kumasawa

Additional kills
Shannon kills Jessica
Shannon kills Nanjo
Shannon kills herself
Asumu kills Battler

Spoiler for ”Additional comments”:

Of course, there are many solutions of episode 3 and 4 but I wrote those solutions so that they are easy to understand. (hopefully )

My Asumu theory is not updated yet and is out of date but if you read the episode 4 solution you can see some of the changes I have planned.

As I wrote in both my solutions to those episodes, I believe that the mastermind threatens to kill Rudolf if Battler attends the family conference. It’s likely that Rudolf would tell Kyrie about this threat. Kyrie is the only adult I can see that would come up with a strategy that would involve faking a mass murder on the island to flush out the culprit who threatened Rudolf’s life. The ones committing the murders would try to take advantage of Kyrie’s strategy.

Having Rudolf decide whether or not to tell Kyrie about this on October 4th gives me the flexibility to include this strategy or not since it occurs during the game board’s time frame.

The main problems why I don’t see this strategy in every episode:
-Regarding episode 3, The individual keys were found inside envelopes alongside the corpses! Regardless of what blue truth Ronove used, red truth wins in my opinion.
-Regarding episode 4, I don’t see why everyone would be in on an elaborate act to fool Battler, Jessica, George, and Maria.

I will say though, that I will probably be forced to use this strategy if I write solutions for episodes 2, 5, and especially 6.

Please PM if you find type-o's

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Spoiler for about the fake blood:

Edit:I also have this one about 07151129 also

Spoiler for 07151129:

Ha, that's an interesting interpretation, but it is said that the areca nut juice is bright red, while the mysterious painting is dark red. Of course maybe the color darkens after being exposed for long to the air.

Also I wonder if the liquid of the areca nut can last for long period of times and if it can resist under the rain.

[Judoh]

The only problem I have with your first twilight Ssol is that for it to work Shannon and Kanon would have to be like mobsters trained by Al Capone. I don't see Kanon hiding shell casings. I don't see a motive for it either. That's a really extreme first twlight though. First six people are killed than the rest are drugged. I wonder if in your theory the epitaph would have any real relevance to the murders at all. I'm gonna read the whole thing, but DAMN. You have a wild imagination.

[Pinguma]

Originally Posted by Judoh

I was wondering about this envelope too.

I was also looking for alternate reasons why they went to the chapel in the first place.

Um.. do you beleive Shannon really found that memo that said "chapel" after the 1st twilight? Because they show a scene with her finding a memo, but Genji doesn't mention it to Rosa. In fact I don't think it was ever mentioned again after that. It wasn't mentioned by anyone, not even the meta characters. So If that's a fictional event than the reason for going to the chapel just seems strange. This could show that the servants knew the chapel was unlocked the whole time though. If that's true though what would possess Genji to go to the chapel and report to Rosa about the strange thing he found if there was no memo? Why would anyone go out in a typhoon for that anyway? Go out into the storm because of a memo? Doesn't that seem strange? It would be one thing if it was a threatening letter that Shannon found, or if they said in the story that memos like that have been left before and that would give us a reason for believing they'd check it out because it's urgent, but nothing like that ever happens. There's no foreshadowing for it in that episode. Besides wouldn't you search the mansion and the guesthouse first to see if they might have come back?

Episode 2 is supposed to be difficult right? Maybe this is why it's so hard. How can we make sense of who did the murders if we haven't even thought about other reasons for why the corpses were even found? Or even question what happened to make anyone find them? Isn't this important?

Shannon shows Rosa the memo to the chapel that she said she found, and Rosa questions whose handwriting it is as she does not recognise it to be from any of her siblings. The servants also say they went to her first since they could not find the others. At this point she checks the door and realises it locked. Genji says the chapel key is missing. Its said that Rosa feels incredibly uneasy and remembers what the witch said to Maria about 'opening it when the time is right' before rushing back and checking that the contents of the envelope were a key and rushing back, asking whether this was the key to the chapel.
Of course Battler does not observe this so it is questionable I guess, but he does mention that at dawn he thinks that 'Rosa came in and fished around for something in Maria's bag', before learning anything about the chapel or the murder.

(My idea of why - tweaked snip from idea of EP2 first twilight):
The adults went into the chapel because 'Beatrice' appeared before them at night when they were gathered, and led them there, as she was stating that she is the alchemy counseller to the Ushiromiya family. She was providing proof of her position. There is evidence to suggest this due to Battler discovering three gold bars on the chapel table the following day when it is stated that Krauss only ever found one. This 'Beatrice' already knows the location of the gold.
I thought that Rosa left early and hence why she wasn't killed, and this is also why she feels so uneasy about the whole chapel business.

I think it's more interesting to also question Kyrie. (Perhaps both Rosa and Kyrie too)

Spoiler for Kyrie:

(again snip from theory):
She seems to be the one who goes up to Rosa, talk about Maria and Ange together with her and causes Rosa to remember about Maria being outside. As a result, Rosa rushes out. The adults are confused and surprised by her actions:

Kyrie: "Oh, no. The sky is getting dark quickly. It's almost as though the people in this room have made the weather worse.
......There's already thunder. Oh? Was that one there...?
Rosa:"Huh?"
There really were small splashes of rain on the glass of the parlor window. ...It seemed as though the weather had gotten worse than expected.
......Just then, a silent thunderbolt struck inside Rosa's head, and she remembered her beloved child was in the rose garden.
etc.
......That's right, I.........told that kid, ...................just to stay there doing that forever didn't I...?
Rosa:"Oh, ......oh no...! Maria...!!"
Everyone looked back at Rosa when she let out a small scream.
Krauss:"...What, what happened?"
Rosa:"I, I'm sorry, I'm going outside for a second. I'll be right back!"
Rudolf:"......What the, what's going on with her, really...
Kyrie:"It's fine right? She'll be right back. ......More importantly, should we begin? Our main topic."
Eva:"That's right. We can keep talking about this without Rosa. Let's return to our discussion."
(Only Kyrie's sprite on screen at this time) Kyrie:"............"

Because of this, Rosa happens to just bump into Beatrice with Maria. Kyrie is also the only other adult to have claimed to have met this Beatrice when she steps outside the room for a bit.

About the "discord" letter, doesn't it only show up in the closed rooms when Maria is present? Both in EP1 and EP2. I have a feeling she's responsible...or it slips out her notebook or something...

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Ok, here’s my complete theory on episode 4:
Episode 4 Theory

Here a brief summary for those who don’t want to read it all:

Spoiler for ”Kill List”:

First Twilight
Shannon kills Genji
Kanon kills Hideyoshi
Shannon kills Rudolf
Kanon kills Eva
Shannon kills Natsuhi
Kanon kills Rosa

Second Twilight
Jessica kills George
Maria drinks poison

Fourth Twilight
Kyrie kills Kanon

Kyrie is suit Beatrice
Shannon is non-suit Beatrice

Fifth Twilight
Shannon kills Kyrie

Sixth Twilight
Shannon kills Krauss

Seventh Twilight
Jessica kills Gohda

Second Twilight
Jessica kills Kumasawa

Additional kills
Shannon kills Jessica
Shannon kills Nanjo
Shannon kills herself
Asumu kills Battler

Spoiler for ”Additional comments”:

Of course, there are many solutions of episode 3 and 4 but I wrote those solutions so that they are easy to understand. (hopefully )

My Asumu theory is not updated yet and is out of date but if you read the episode 4 solution you can see some of the changes I have planned.

As I wrote in both my solutions to those episodes, I believe that the mastermind threatens to kill Rudolf if Battler attends the family conference. It’s likely that Rudolf would tell Kyrie about this threat. Kyrie is the only adult I can see that would come up with a strategy that would involve faking a mass murder on the island to flush out the culprit who threatened Rudolf’s life. The ones committing the murders would try to take advantage of Kyrie’s strategy.

Having Rudolf decide whether or not to tell Kyrie about this on October 4th gives me the flexibility to include this strategy or not since it occurs during the game board’s time frame.

The main problems why I don’t see this strategy in every episode:
-Regarding episode 3, The individual keys were found inside envelopes alongside the corpses! Regardless of what blue truth Ronove used, red truth wins in my opinion.
-Regarding episode 4, I don’t see why everyone would be in on an elaborate act to fool Battler, Jessica, George, and Maria.

I will say though, that I will probably be forced to use this strategy if I write solutions for episodes 2, 5, and especially 6.

Please PM if you find type-o's

Here's the problem with the order of deaths.

Kanon is the 9th killed. Now Battler sees George, Kumasawa and Gohda dead before he gets to the mansion to meet the suit-Beato.

According to your theory, Kumasawa and Gohda don't die until after Battler meets Suit-Beato. But he already sees them hanging with a bullet in their heads in the shed before that. So Kumasawa, Gohda and George are all confirmed dead with Battler's sight by the time Battler gets to Suit-Beato.

[Renall]

As I recall, he merely sees them hanging. There is no reason to necessarily believe they have as yet been shot.

[luckyssol]

Originally Posted by Marion

Here's the problem with the order of deaths.

Kanon is the 9th killed. Now Battler sees George, Kumasawa and Gohda dead before he gets to the mansion to meet the suit-Beato.

According to your theory, Kumasawa and Gohda don't die until after Battler meets Suit-Beato. But he already sees them hanging with a bullet in their heads in the shed before that. So Kumasawa, Gohda and George are all confirmed dead with Battler's sight by the time Battler gets to Suit-Beato.

Renall is correct. When Battler opened the shed he found Gohda and Kumasawa hanging and their feet were firmly on the ground.

Originally Posted by Battler's thoughts from the episode 4, sometime after 6am when Battler opened the shed and found Gohda and Kumasawa for the second time:

Then, I faced Gohda-san and Kumasawa-san's corpses once more......

As a result, I learned of a new fact.

First, they had not died by being hung by the neck. Both of their feet were solidly on the floor.

......And on both of their foreheads were signs that they had been shot with a gun.

I think it's likely that they didn't die before midnight and the culprit came later on and finished them off.

[TDS]

I don't think maria was a second twilight death in Ep4... I know the death order is hard to discern but even ignoring the events laid out by fantasy, she was with Battler to near the end. There's no evidence either way, but personally I got the impression that when Maria and Battler left the guest house the killing was further along than that.

Furthermore it leaves a Huuuuge gap between the first and second killing of the second twilight, unless George was still alive when Jessica called.

[RockReborn]

Originally Posted by TDS

I don't think maria was a second twilight death in Ep4... I know the death order is hard to discern but even ignoring the events laid out by fantasy, she was with Battler to near the end. There's no evidence either way, but personally I got the impression that when Maria and Battler left the guest house the killing was further along than that.

Furthermore it leaves a Huuuuge gap between the first and second killing of the second twilight, unless George was still alive when Jessica called.

I agree. Also, didn't Kyrie call before Maria left? Even if Kyrie had been the culprit, wouldn't it be more likely that she had already killed a few people before making the call?

[Judoh]

Is there any rule saying that the twilight murders have to be in any particular order? Episode 4 is pretty chaotic I wonder if we could even really find a particular order for them to be in.

So for example as long as the people in those twlights die could something like the 5th 6th and 7th twilights happen before the 2nd? I don't think we really have to follow the epitaph in order for the murders, and I don't think the culprit necessarily does follow that order in every episode.

[Renall]

There is no reason to believe the order is as the game record says and indeed there is evidence that it is not the case in ep2. Of all the game records, I would be especially suspicious of ep4's. That said, it isn't impossible for it to have happened in that order, necessarily.

[ameskitty]

Ryu implied in an interview pre-EP6 that there was some significance or pattern to the twilights (something like "those who know the answer should be able to predict how EP5 pans out"), but given current opinions on the endgame "answer" and some hints given in EP6 I don't think that's what he was talking about anymore.

Makes you wonder why it's so...off sometimes, though.

[sn0w75]

It's been a little while since I played ep 5, but I was so sure about this theory when I played it, that I went back and double checked.

In the Witch's Trial, they say that no one left the dining hall until 1:00 AM. However, this gives absolutely no alibi to Kanon/Shanon, who entered the dining hall at some point, right? They were free to commit murder before they entered the dining hall, right?
I can't remember the time they entered the dining hall though. If they entered at a time the murder couldn't have occured (according to the witch's trial at least) then my theory fails.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by sn0w75

It's been a little while since I played ep 5, but I was so sure about this theory when I played it, that I went back and double checked.

In the Witch's Trial, they say that no one left the dining hall until 1:00 AM. However, this gives absolutely no alibi to Kanon/Shanon, who entered the dining hall at some point, right? They were free to commit murder before they entered the dining hall, right?
I can't remember the time they entered the dining hall though. If they entered at a time the murder couldn't have occured (according to the witch's trial at least) then my theory fails.

Well everyone in the guest room in the morning weren't really dead, according to the contradictions in red text, so that entire trial might as well be thrown out as far as the murders of those people.

[RockReborn]

On a different note, is it possible for Beato to not enjoy the murders (IIRC Virgilia said this in red in EP5) and still have revenge as a motive? If it's not, and we assume that Beatrice is indeed the main culprit, then I have some speculation on the purpose of the bomb, or whatever it is that ends the game at midnight on the second day.
My train of thought went like this:

Spoiler for my take on the bomb's role:

1. Is Beatrice aware of the bomb/explosion/game-ending event?
Based on the end of EP4 and Beatrice's final riddle, I think it is safe to assume that she knows what happens at the end of each game.

2. So, if her grand scheme is to kill the family, why not set the bomb to go off in the middle of the first night after she stows herself away in the Kuwadorian and simply kill them all instantly in one go?
My interpretation of this is that the bomb serves as a time limit for whatever riddle Beatrice is trying to get Battler to solve. After that point, she gives up on him, allowing everyone still alive--and quite possibly herself--to be killed by the bomb. Her reaction is not one of victory, but of disappointment.

I may just be reinforcing the obvious, but I think that from this, we can rule out the motives of revenge and the gold.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Marion

Well everyone in the guest room in the morning weren't really dead, according to the contradictions in red text, so that entire trial might as well be thrown out as far as the murders of those people.

Based on Virgilia's corpse inspection, we can narrow down the time of death to between 7am and 12:30pm on October 5th. Was there any time during that period when the survivors split up, other than to get the tools to break into Kinzo's study?

[Marion]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Based on Virgilia's corpse inspection, we can narrow down the time of death to between 7am and 12:30pm on October 5th. Was there any time during that period when the survivors split up, other than to get the tools to break into Kinzo's study?

At around 8am they all go to Kinzo's study. But before that they check Krauss's room and find him gone as well.

If the murders were to occur it would need to be during the time everyone was in Kinzo's study. That means the most likely murderers are the victims themselves.