[Manga] Chapter 378 Discussion

[shankss]

Spoiler for wtf:

When did those ninjas invent the survailence camera? damn their tech knows no limits!

[Zoe]

Originally Posted by shankss

When did those ninjas invent the survailence camera? damn their tech knows no limits!

Did you miss the Forest of Death portion where they busted out a VCR?

[Quzor]

Originally Posted by Zoe

Did you miss the Forest of Death portion where they busted out a VCR?

A VCR and a surveillance camera!

[TooPurePureBoy]

Ya Kishi has said in interviews he wasn't adversed to using Technology in his shinobi universe, but he just wanted to stay away from using modern weaponry, that's all.

[Monkey D. Luffy]

Chapter was alright I hope Jiraiya doesn't think he actually has Pein for the finish. Even though this might be the end of the fight but I don't see a flat out winner coming out yet.

[Naotaka]

You've put it into the wrong context, Byakkugan has to use Kaiten to defend against his/her blindspot (as we've seen so far), while someone wih the rin'nengan doesn't neccesarily have to summon a giant panda. Kishi is trying to show it's superiority to the Hyuuga technique by:

1. Saying it uses no chakra
2.Saying it does not needed seals (hence, no time lapse)
3.Saying it has no blind spot.

I agree, but i think you misunderstood something. The Kaiten's purspose is not to not have a blind spot, rather it's an ultimate defense ability. It's used to protect Neji from multiple attacks, in most cases. Very rarilly if ever have I seen him use it to just block normal attacks. In my opinion it would be suffice to say, that Neji could just as easily dodge an attack when he sees it coming. Hence not wasting any chakra either. The reason I brought up the panda summon, was because that is Pain's way of quickly blocking a barrage of attacks.

We also have to put into context that this is only one of the rin'nengan's techniques and that he has a few more with that dojutsu of his. (I'm guessing this is more of a defensive technique than an offensive one.)

Oh don't get me wrong, I never said that this was the only thing the Rin'engan has to offer, just when compared to the Byakugan's perspective abilities, I don't necessarily think it's better.

the rinnegan, in terms of line of sight, is far far more superior than the byakugan.

2 scenarios:

1st - open ground with no obstacles. the difference here is not that huge since byakugan will only be missing a tiny line of sight compared to the rinnegan.

2nd - buildings ( with a lot of corners ). the byakugan's sight is limited to a single hallway. the rinnegan on the other hand can cover multiple hallways.

The first point I may agree with. The second point, umm no. The Byakugan sees through objects it is not effected at all by corners.

However I will give you different scenarios where the Byakugan is far superior to the Rin'engan.

1) You have a mass number of shadow cloans. If your surrounded by cloans, your vision is obstracted, the Byakugan is not obstracted by large numbers because it can see through objects

2) You have fake illusion cloans. However the normal eye can't tell the difference at first, the Byakugan can see through them, because it realises there is no chakra circulating in the illusions body like there is in a normal body or a shadow cloan.

3) You are in a multiple hall way scenerio or a forest or what not, you only have so many bodies to look out for people in hidding. Most likelly not enough to see them all. Where as the Byakugan can see through walls and hence see everything in it's radious.

You remember when Neji was quickly able to find the seals in a forest, so that they could open up the Akatski, lair, since it was protected by a barrier. It would take people a hell of a lot longer then that to find those seals, with out the Byakugan.

I realise, the Rin'engan has other abilities. It let Pain master all 6 elements, letting him learn any ninjitsu that has ever been thrown at him, which is more then I can say for the Byakugan. However Kishimoto fails hard in trying to explain why the Rin'engan is better the the Byakugan when we're talking about line of sight and vision in general. Yet I still strongly belive that is what he was trying to prove.

[zepkox]

I realise, the Rin'engan has other abilities. It let Pain master all 6 elements, letting him learn any ninjitsu that has ever been thrown at him, which is more then I can say for the Byakugan. However Kishimoto fails hard in trying to explain why the Rin'engan is better the the Byakugan when we're talking about line of sight and vision in general. Yet I still strongly belive that is what he was trying to prove.

Yea I agree with you on that. Considering the other abilities Rinnegan offers, it's proven itself to be one powerful doujutsu.
But Kishi has yet to expound on how it is more superior than Byakugan sight-wise.
Byakugan can:
1. See 360 degrees
2. See through things
3. See the flow of chakra
Whereas Rinnegan so far is only explained to act like surveillance cameras.
And we all know in the ninja world, technology is out-ruled. Look, they use eagles to deliver messages. What happened to wireless internet services?

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Naotaka

I agree, but i think you misunderstood something. The Kaiten's purspose is not to not have a blind spot, rather it's an ultimate defense ability. It's used to protect Neji from multiple attacks, in most cases. Very rarilly if ever have I seen him use it to just block normal attacks. In my opinion it would be suffice to say, that Neji could just as easily dodge an attack when he sees it coming. Hence not wasting any chakra either. The reason I brought up the panda summon, was because that is Pain's way of quickly blocking a barrage of attacks.

Someone with Byakugan can dodge almost any attack. But for attacks aimed at their blind spot, only Kaiten is guaranteed to work since it deflects attacks all over their body. It is the only technique that completely defends the blind spot. When Neji fought Kidomaru, once he ran low on chakra and couldn't perform Kaiten to deflect the kunai, he was at a serious disadvantage. He continued to dodge the some of the kunai, but the ones aimed at his blind spot hit.

But Pein's bodies cover each other's blind spots through the shared vision. And if one gets attacked on their blind side, Pein isn't limited to one option of attack. He can summon defense, use the one body to absorb ninjutsu or simply react with taijutsu. He's been shown to use all three.

I realise, the Rin'engan has other abilities. It let Pain master all 6 elements, letting him learn any ninjitsu that has ever been thrown at him, which is more then I can say for the Byakugan. However Kishimoto fails hard in trying to explain why the Rin'engan is better the the Byakugan when we're talking about line of sight and vision in general. Yet I still strongly belive that is what he was trying to prove.

He didn't say it was better in terms of sight, only that it offers an advantage the Byakugan doesn't. It was only compared to Byakugan because they offer a similar power. Byakugan has its advantages, but there's need to point them out in the story, since we already know its powers. However, it was key to point out Rinnegan's advantage to understand Jiraiya's strategy.

[ChojinLocke]

A. In terms of insight the Byakugan is unrivalled. Byakugan can see the chakra flow and the Rinnegan so far cant do that. Oh wait a minute..Pain felt Jiraya within his rain...nevermind..I give this point to Byakugan.

B. In terms of sight range the rinnegan wins. 1) Rinnegan has no blind spot 2) Rinnegan has a larger potential field of sight (I can be in Europe, USA, Australia sight wise all at the same time if one of my bodies is there and im playing chess in Africa) 3) Rinnegan's sight range is not static. If the target I am oberving moves to a distant location I can have one of my bodies follow him and I can see him - targetting.

[Naotaka]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Someone with Byakugan can dodge almost any attack. But for attacks aimed at their blind spot, only Kaiten is guaranteed to work since it deflects attacks all over their body. It is the only technique that completely defends the blind spot. When Neji fought Kidomaru, once he ran low on chakra and couldn't perform Kaiten to deflect the kunai, he was at a serious disadvantage. He continued to dodge the some of the kunai, but the ones aimed at his blind spot hit.

But Pein's bodies cover each other's blind spots through the shared vision. And if one gets attacked on their blind side, Pein isn't limited to one option of attack. He can summon defense, use the one body to absorb ninjutsu or simply react with taijutsu. He's been shown to use all three.



He didn't say it was better in terms of sight, only that it offers an advantage the Byakugan doesn't. It was only compared to Byakugan because they offer a similar power. Byakugan has its advantages, but there's need to point them out in the story, since we already know its powers. However, it was key to point out Rinnegan's advantage to understand Jiraiya's strategy.

I don't really agree with point 1. Simply because when you move, the last area you couldn't see, will now be seen because the blind spot has shifted. Hence all you have to do is move.

The reason it didn't work against the member of the sound 4, was because once he figured out the spot on Neji, he used chakra to guide the arrow arround as needed, to constently move along with the blind spot, so that at no time in Neji's movements could it be seen. In a case like this, I admit the Rin'engan would be superior.

Also if you remember the reason Neji stopped, useing the Kaiten, was because he realised the more he used it the more Kidomaru, realised of his blind spot, once Neji actually got hit by a kunai. Hence Neji quickly shifted his tactics. I suppose you are right in the respect that the Kaiten uses large amounts of chakra, so it would be hard to use it consistently, but that's not why Neji stopped useing it in the first place.

As far as your second point. Weather or not, he is saying that the Rin'engan is better then the Byakugan. I've always thought that when you compare something you decide which is better and worse in what aspects. The whole point of comparing is to show the differences in terms of quality. Compare two different hockey players with each other, compare two different sport cars with each other, compare two different what ever. You're always going to point out what one has that is better then the other. Here they are comparing two different eye techniques to each other.

If Kishimoto wanted to just point out the strategy that Jiraiya was forming, it could of been done with out comparing the Rin'engan to the Byakugan, at least in my opinion. I see what your saying, and I completly understand. I just don't agree at all, and probablly won't regardless of how many times you restate, that comparing something does not mean trying to prove which is better.

[Naotaka]

Originally Posted by ChojinLocke

A. In terms of insight the Byakugan is unrivalled. Byakugan can see the chakra flow and the Rinnegan so far cant do that. Oh wait a minute..Pain felt Jiraya within his rain...nevermind..I give this point to Byakugan.

B. In terms of sight range the rinnegan wins. 1) Rinnegan has no blind spot 2) Rinnegan has a larger potential field of sight (I can be in Europe, USA, Australia sight wise all at the same time if one of my bodies is there and im playing chess in Africa) 3) Rinnegan's sight range is not static. If the target I am oberving moves to a distant location I can have one of my bodies follow him and I can see him - targetting.

The Rin'engan's range might be unrivalled. I won't argue that. However, it does have a blind spot. When all 3 were facing Jaraiya, all 3 of them at first were looking at Jaraiya. Since they could not see their back sides that was their blind side. The only way to avoid that is to split yourself up so that each body sees the other bodies, and nothing obstracts that view. That can be easier said then done, depending on your surroundings.

Also say your fighting someone from the hidden village of the mist. Who creates mist everywhere with the Rin'engan your range just got severlly limited, with the Byakugan, you'd have no problems with it.

[tatami]

people... do not miscalculate rinnegans power.

its not yet been revealed fully. the 3 person camera thing may be about pains ability , not all rinnegan users ability or even rinnegans ability.we just know that pein is using bodies and can see with all of them.

[Hiking_Bear]

I don't think 360 vision is the true power of the Rinnegan, but more like a bonus. Since each of the Pains specializes in certain attacks and there are 6 Pains in total, it would make sense that each Pain specializes in an element. The Pain that we originally saw was Water, and the summoning one is probably Earth. I think we'll see Pain merge these bodies to allow himself to use multiple elements simultaneously. So, he'd be able to use Mokuton and a ton of other abilities.

[Black-Cat-Sama]

Originally Posted by Naotaka

I agree, but i think you misunderstood something. The Kaiten's purspose is not to not have a blind spot, rather it's an ultimate defense ability. It's used to protect Neji from multiple attacks, in most cases. Very rarilly if ever have I seen him use it to just block normal attacks. In my opinion it would be suffice to say, that Neji could just as easily dodge an attack when he sees it coming. Hence not wasting any chakra either. The reason I brought up the panda summon, was because that is Pain's way of quickly blocking a barrage of attacks.



Oh don't get me wrong, I never said that this was the only thing the Rin'engan has to offer, just when compared to the Byakugan's perspective abilities, I don't necessarily think it's better.



The first point I may agree with. The second point, umm no. The Byakugan sees through objects it is not effected at all by corners.

However I will give you different scenarios where the Byakugan is far superior to the Rin'engan.

1) You have a mass number of shadow cloans. If your surrounded by cloans, your vision is obstracted, the Byakugan is not obstracted by large numbers because it can see through objects

2) You have fake illusion cloans. However the normal eye can't tell the difference at first, the Byakugan can see through them, because it realises there is no chakra circulating in the illusions body like there is in a normal body or a shadow cloan.

3) You are in a multiple hall way scenerio or a forest or what not, you only have so many bodies to look out for people in hidding. Most likelly not enough to see them all. Where as the Byakugan can see through walls and hence see everything in it's radious.

You remember when Neji was quickly able to find the seals in a forest, so that they could open up the Akatski, lair, since it was protected by a barrier. It would take people a hell of a lot longer then that to find those seals, with out the Byakugan.

I realise, the Rin'engan has other abilities. It let Pain master all 6 elements, letting him learn any ninjitsu that has ever been thrown at him, which is more then I can say for the Byakugan. However Kishimoto fails hard in trying to explain why the Rin'engan is better the the Byakugan when we're talking about line of sight and vision in general. Yet I still strongly belive that is what he was trying to prove.

Yeah you can see through objects but if they're clones all ull see is the chakra lining which will still be a lot to see through and u cant look through what ur lookign through. If the rinne'gan has more tha one guy with it form what we know, it'll be over the byakugan in anything. but as of t he moment we know to little of it so discussion closedddddd

[Naotaka]

Originally Posted by Black-Cat-Sama

Yeah you can see through objects but if they're clones all ull see is the chakra lining which will still be a lot to see through and u cant look through what ur lookign through. If the rinne'gan has more tha one guy with it form what we know, it'll be over the byakugan in anything. but as of t he moment we know to little of it so discussion closedddddd

I'm not sure where you're going with this since my original point was. That the Byakugan can see through all illusion cloans something that the Rin'engan couldn't see through because it doesn't see the chakra out line, going through the body. The only thing the Byakugan isn't able to do is tell apart a shadow cloan from a real one, because both are actual physical bodies, and not illusions. Both have chakra going through them as well.

[Spideyknight]

The problem here is that Kishi has stated the Rinnegan is supposed to be the most powerful Dojutsu. However, Kishi has SSJ4'd the Sharingan (which the Byakugan was supposed to be on par with, so much for that) so that's going to be a difficult thing to prove. Especially considering Kishi's penchant for leeps in logic or outright holes.

Has anyone noticed that Pein does everything without hand seals? That's a pretty useful ability of the Rinnegan right there.

[Naotaka]

Originally Posted by Spideyknight

The problem here is that Kishi has stated the Rinnegan is supposed to be the most powerful Dojutsu. However, Kishi has SSJ4'd the Sharingan (which the Byakugan was supposed to be on par with, so much for that) so that's going to be a difficult thing to prove. Especially considering Kishi's penchant for leeps in logic or outright holes.

Has anyone noticed that Pein does everything without hand seals? That's a pretty useful ability of the Rinnegan right there.

I agree with you completly minus the fact that Pein doesn't use hand seals. Heck I'll even post you the pages.

Well apperently I'm told I can't post, manga pages due to copy right issues or something, so feel free to double check the last two pages of chapter 376, & the first page of 374, and you can clearly see Pein useing hand seals.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Naotaka

I don't really agree with point 1. Simply because when you move, the last area you couldn't see, will now be seen because the blind spot has shifted. Hence all you have to do is move.

Even the Byakugan user constantly moves and shifts the blind spot, it still exists. Moving might make it much harder to hit, but if the attacks are fast enough and/or coming from several directions, the blind spot can be exploited and the attacks cannot be avoided. So if the Byakugan user is in this situation, Kaiten is the only option.

Spoiler for manga explanation:

As far as your second point. Weather or not, he is saying that the Rin'engan is better then the Byakugan. I've always thought that when you compare something you decide which is better and worse in what aspects. The whole point of comparing is to show the differences in terms of quality. Compare two different hockey players with each other, compare two different sport cars with each other, compare two different what ever. You're always going to point out what one has that is better then the other. Here they are comparing two different eye techniques to each other.

Ok, opinion is opinion. But one last time I'll point out that when Byakugan was first introduced, it was directly compared to the Sharingan and was said to better in terms of insight. Despite direct comparaison it's quite obvious that Byakugan was never meant to be superior to Sharingan. It was simply explained that Byakugan was superior in that certain aspect.

Rinnegan's already stated to be most powerful of the three doujutsu. But that doesn't mean the author is trying to say it's superior in every aspect.

[Naotaka]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Even the Byakugan user constantly moves and shifts the blind spot, it still exists. Moving might make it much harder to hit, but if the attacks are fast enough and/or coming from several directions, the blind spot can be exploited and the attacks cannot be avoided. So if the Byakugan user is in this situation, Kaiten is the only option.

Spoiler for manga explanation:

Ok, opinion is opinion. But one last time I'll point out that when Byakugan was first introduced, it was directly compared to the Sharingan and was said to better in terms of insight. Despite direct comparaison it's quite obvious that Byakugan was never meant to be superior to Sharingan. It was simply explained that Byakugan was superior in that certain aspect.

Rinnegan's already stated to be most powerful of the three doujutsu. But that doesn't mean the author is trying to say it's superior in every aspect.

1) I see the point you're aiming for. However, in the same respect, the Rin'engan's view is not with out it's down sides either. Blind spots can be created and exploited, just the same. When you look at the big picture, Both Pein & Neji are put into a position when attacked to do one of three things. Dodge, use a ninjitsu to block / parry the incoming attacks, or get hit. How the exploits are created, to take advantage of the blind spots vary but, you can't get around the fact that both have them, and both must deal with them in a simular fashion be it a Kaiten or a different ninjitsu technique to block / parry a barrage of attacks.

2) If your saying, that Kishimoto failed to prove another point he stated earlier I completly agree with you, 500%. The sharingan, has just become so overpowered it's not even funny.

[bdragonomega]

Hahaha, high tech Neji can just wear a portable camera at his blindspot and connect the output to some goggles or glasses or something... he may not be seeing throught that blindspot with the byakugan, but at least he can see it. Well if they're high tech enough, he can hook them up with a zoom, night vision, and some infared features.