Cultural reactions to sexual portrayals in anime

[speedyexpress48]

Personally, I don't think that 99% of anime characters are realistic portals of any real person, and I also don't really see the "risk" in someone browsing or buying lolicon...sure, there's the guy who gets caught with lolicon and real CP once in a while, but the chance of a lolicon becoming a pedophile who hurts kids is the same as the chance of a random FPS player going out and killing people; both could happen to the mentally unstable, but those people could be easily set off by almost anything.

Also, the OP asserts that Europeans are automatically okay with this type of thing while Americans are automatically prudish and hate this type of thing. Yeah, uh...pornography is taken a LOT more seriously in England and some other European countries than in the US from what I have seen, and lolicon is absolutely illegal in many parts of Europe while the very specific "drawings do not count as child porn" part of the law exists in several US states (including the OP's home state of California). Yes, some European guys might have written about the "we are more mature" part because of outdated and incorrect stereotypes, and yes, there are MANY regions in the US that are a lot more conservative than many regions in Europe, but there are many very conservative regions in Europe as well...and there are many regions of the US that don't give much of a shit.

Hell, since the OP lives in LA...go into any Barnes And Noble, buy a manga that has a pretty explicit and sexual loli cover (yes, you can find one in there, who would have thought?) with the warning "Explicit Content" on it, and see if anyone really bats an eye (they probably won't even bother to check for ID; they never do that here, and I doubt that some random Denver suburb is more sexually liberal than Los Angeles, where the majority of porn in America is made in and where people don't give a shit about .) Nevermind any anime convention or specialized anime shop.

Of course, if you hate fanservice, fine with me. A lot of it is crap in my opinion. But don't write off an entire continent and an entire group because one fanservice scene offended you; you'll be surprised by how little your own fellow anime fans here in America care about it.

[Lyocol]

Teenage boys and young men have been sexualized too and I'm surprised that nobody seems to be noticed it. Maybe because we are discussing about "male gaze" issues and we forgot about "female gaze" one. Women are visual creatures too and more importantly they are good of hiding that. Unlike men who always proud of what they are seeing. So in other words women don't hate porn. They only hate men's porn. Just look on how many pornographic novels(yes it is a legit genre) that are made by and for women in your nearest libraries and book stores, not in porn stores which where men's porn can only be found.

Male exploitation by and for women isn't new, even in anime and manga. Stuffs like Gravitation, Ai no Kusabi and Yami no Matsuei have been around since 90's while Seikon no Qwaser, Vampire Bund and Queen's Blade are only becoming mainstream in recent years for comparison.

[Joyce_Steele]

You're not alone Lyocol. As a woman myself I agree that women as just as perverted as men are. The only reasons why people tend to ignore male exploitation in this thread because most forumers are males and it also quite obvious most of them never saw something what Lyocol said.

[SeijiSensei]

For me, at least, my focus on female characters is because this thread began with a discussion of lolis. Plus "male exploitation" is simply a lot less common in anime than is "female exploitation." There seems to be more shounen-ai and yaoi material in manga than in anime. In my case, too, I think I focus on exploitation of girls because I raised one and am thus more sensitive to portrayals of females in popular media.

[hyl]

Originally Posted by Lyocol

Teenage boys and young men have been sexualized too and I'm surprised that nobody seems to be noticed it. Maybe because we are discussing about "male gaze" issues and we forgot about "female gaze" one. Women are visual creatures too and more importantly they are good of hiding that. Unlike men who always proud of what they are seeing. So in other words women don't hate porn. They only hate men's porn. Just look on how many pornographic novels(yes it is a legit genre) that are made by and for women in your nearest libraries and book stores, not in porn stores which where men's porn can only be found.

I fail to see the relation between "Women are visual creatures" and pornographic novels and while we are talking about novels, there are far more pornographic novels for men than for women.

Originally Posted by Lyocol

Male exploitation by and for women isn't new, even in anime and manga. Stuffs like Gravitation, Ai no Kusabi and Yami no Matsuei have been around since 90's while Seikon no Qwaser, Vampire Bund and Queen's Blade are only becoming mainstream in recent years for comparison.

Interesting that you are using older examples when it comes to fanservice series for females , while you are only use recent examples for fanservice series for males. Seriously, aren't we forgetting much older series such as Urusei Yatsura, Dragon Ball (the original had plenty of fanservice at the beginning), Ranma 1/2 , Lupin III and a whole lot of more?

The thing is that women are generally more often objectified than men either in real life or in fiction, so of course you will see more things written/drawn for men than for women

[aohige]

Shooting, stabbing, and torture is A-OK in daytime TV.
Showing Skin? Absolutely not.

American values!

[Ithekro]

The Frontier life mixed with Puritan values I suppose. Death and such was life and eventually glamoried...partly to get people to move out west. Nudity however was a no-no. Even more so when the Americans took on some Victorian values in the late 19th century. It took a long, long time for it to be acceptible for women to show any skin other than their faces, maybe part of her neck, and her hands...sometimes even their arms.

[Kirarakim]

I have nothing against nudity and sex in fiction. I do have something against the objectifying of women that comes along with fan service.

And while it is true that men can be objectified too as others have already pointed out it's not on the same level at all as the objectifying of women. There are also far more positive portrayals of men of all ages in fiction than there are of women.

I also don't like violence porn but that is a separate issue.

[Tyabann]

You know.
What I'm wondering is whether it's possible for a character to be fanservicey as well as well-written... or are those mutually exclusive things?
In other words, is fanservice always objectification, even if the character has agency and a strong, independent personality?

[hyl]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

You know.
What I'm wondering is whether it's possible for a character to be fanservicey as well as well-written... or are those mutually exclusive things?
In other words, is fanservice always objectification, even if the character has agency and a strong, independent personality?

Some characters in eroges have both qualities

[Archon_Wing]

They are never mutually exclusive; a good example is Motoko Kusanagi

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

You know.
What I'm wondering is whether it's possible for a character to be fanservicey as well as well-written... or are those mutually exclusive things?
In other words, is fanservice always objectification, even if the character has agency and a strong, independent personality?

Yes of course a character can be both but that doesn't mean it doesn't demean the character in some ways.

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Yes of course a character can be both but that doesn't mean it doesn't demean the character in some ways.

Like the Nanoha series?

[Archon_Wing]

That's a very mixed bag.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

They are never mutually exclusive; a good example is Motoko Kusanagi

Although the portrayal of the major is so different in the anime from her manga self.
I kinda wish her fun-loving, humorous, and bisexual nature from the manga was represented a bit more in the anime.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Nudity (except the non-explicit kind) could make a show adult but not mature. And I say could because I wager some ecchi series are made for the teenagers who just discovered hormones. At any rate I wouldn't take one culture's higher or lower tolerance for certain content as a testament to its maturity or lack thereof since it's all relative; what's a big deal in one culture could be casual in another and vice-verse.

[speedyexpress48]

I would just include the explicit kind in there as well; it might be "adult" but you'll have a hard time calling 95% of them mature.