2010-08-20, 22:51 | Link #2621 | |
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Although, I've never been too clear what is going on there, because that scene comes after the interlude where Shinji forces Sakura to make another book, which means that, by all right, Rider should be under his control by then, not Sakura's. |
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2010-08-20, 22:53 | Link #2622 | |
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2010-08-20, 23:04 | Link #2623 |
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Join Date: Mar 2010
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Well, yeah, but even if her explicit orders were only to protect him at the temple, it's clear what the intent was, and Rider was never really one who was bothered with following her orders to the letter (hell, she'll quite happily openly ignore an order if she thinks it's in Sakura's best interests to do so).
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2010-08-21, 00:16 | Link #2624 |
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Join Date: Aug 2009
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On my first play-through of Heaven's Feel (wasn't spoiled on anything except servant identities) I shared similar opinions of Sakura, especially after getting a vibe that Sakura was happy about Saber dying when it was clear Saber liked Sakura.
The 9th day has some of the best scenes in the VN for Shirou, Ilya and Sakura, so I didn't dwell on hating her for too long. |
2010-08-21, 00:36 | Link #2625 | |
Onii-chan~
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2010-08-21, 09:04 | Link #2626 | |
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2010-08-21, 12:57 | Link #2627 | ||||
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Of course, without having spoilered the end of HF, you wouldn't know that, so I suppose that in that case it could come off as being rather bad (since she's glad to see that Saber has disappeared (although, she'd have no way to know she was dead) just because being associated with her seems to result in Shirou getting hurt). In reality, though, it's just yet another piece of clever foreshadowing by Nasu.... Quote:
Even ignoring the fact that "Sakura doesn't matter outside of HF" is complete bollocks, we're talking about HF here, so she quite clearly does matter. Quote:
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2010-08-21, 14:03 | Link #2628 |
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But that's where I get confused, who is Rider's Master supposed to be at this point? The default answer is Shinji because he brought her back and had a second book, and I didn't see any hints that Sakura currently has Rider under her full control. However, Rider was way too powerful to still have Shinji as her Master, and I can't imagine Shinji having the intent for Shirou to safely return home.
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2010-08-21, 14:45 | Link #2629 | |
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The book is a really nice plot device to keep her being a master a secret until HF, if I don't say so myself.
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2010-08-21, 14:55 | Link #2630 | |
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I suppose what DragoZERO said is plausible, though. Perhaps Shinji is asleep and, thus, Rider has reverted to Sakura's control. Alternately, perhaps Sakura can also give orders to Rider, and Shinji didn't see fit to over-ride them (assuming that he can). But, then, that doesn't fit well with what happens in the school fight scene, unless Shinji tricked Sakura into going with him and, then, with a knife to her neck could prevent her from destroying the book. |
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2010-08-22, 13:37 | Link #2631 |
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I suppose it's just a plot hole to accept. It certainly doesn't take away from the fact that Rider is still awesome as heck for kicking Assassin's butt all around the temple. It's just a little confusing when you really start thinking about it and realize that it's never clear who her Master truly is at this point.
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2010-08-23, 02:40 | Link #2632 | |||
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Edit: Gah, I wanted to respond to some other people's posts but I'm already pages and pages behind, and this post is already big....well, whatever.
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Now, from a third person perspective we could say his actions actually fits a form of his UBW ideal. That, rather than taking a sure path to save the most by sacrificing the few, his "save as many as possible" ideal could operate by trying to save everyone including Sakura. Shirou's a guy who jumps in front of Saber to try and protect her from Berserker, and confronts Gil to save Ilya--making an effort against all odds to try and save everyone is just like him. The Mind of Steel choice always puzzled me anyways. Shirou didn't need to dump his ideals there, unless he knew that Sakura was the cause of the Shadow and that the Shadow was devouring people. ...Though I do remember a comment about Shirou sensing Sakura in the Shadow when he had seen it but he had been in denial about the link. If he had thought Sakura caused the Shadow all along--which would be very unusually astute--then maybe he knew of the Shadow's killings and felt forced to choose. Doesn't seem plausible at all though. Quote:
When I think about it, I didn't find Zouken to be a great villain either. He felt rather anti-climactic. I'm sure acquiring True Assassin and summoning the Shadow was his masterstroke, since it let him dominate much of the Grail War. Too bad it wasn't shown--it would have made him much more ominous, imo. Quote:
Last edited by Grey; 2010-08-23 at 02:52. |
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2010-08-23, 09:49 | Link #2633 | ||||||||||
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 39
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No, Shirou thinks that he's dropped his ideal, because he has a fundamental misunderstanding of what that ideal really is.
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Shirou in MoS was simply being cautious. Kotomine had assured him that Sakura would go insane and kill people, so he felt that his 'ideal' required him to kill her, just like Kiritsugu had felt that his ideal required him to kill the woman he thought of as a mother when she was on a plane with some Dead Apostles. HF Shirou decided to go "fuck that" and wanted to save everyone, which is the pure form of the ideal, but which is also quite clearly not possible in reality. Quote:
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There are other issues too. If Zouken were dead, I'd imagine Sakura would quite plausibly take Rider back, especially if she found out what Shinji was doing with her. The whole "Archer's arm" thing wouldn't work without us finding out the truth about him (and his identity is a major spoiler for UBW). Sakura, once freed of Zouken, would likely be a lot more pro-active in pursuing Shirou and, more generally, in getting involved with the war. There are too many things that would need to be changed to play HF and UBW in different orders, and IMO it would just be outright depressing to see Sakura left out in the cold after what we know she went through in HF. |
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2010-08-23, 10:37 | Link #2634 | ||||
"Hey, Isaac?"
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The Shadow went around without any sort of mind, character, or dialogue making the biggest badasses in the game look like jokes, and... it didn't really work. Came off as more annoying than dramatic, most of the time. Quote:
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Don't worry, be happy. Quote:
Last edited by Moczo; 2010-08-23 at 12:12. |
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2010-08-23, 13:53 | Link #2635 |
Mad Scientist #0000
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We debated it at Beast's Lair and even in this thread many times: Sakura's fate in any other route than HF is very-very ambiguous. Few facts:
-Both in UBW and Fate Rin and Shirou are off to London. They know nothing about Sakura and probably only visit her rarely. -Zouken wasn't dealt with in Fate and UBW and still alive. -Zouken has complete control over Sakura and can kill her any time -Zouken seeks immortality and the Heaven's Feel. The dismantlement of the Grail is likely to infuriate him. -Zouken loves the suffering of people, the pain of his decaying body turned him into a total sadist. -Whenever Shinji got really nice or not in UBW is unknown. Shirou isn't an accurate judge of people. -Sakura has all rights to believe both Shirou and Rin completely abandoned her once they set off to London. So you get the picture. Unless some miracle happens, Sakura ends up really bad. And we know miracles normally don't happen in the Nasuverse. The scale of miracle is proportional to the protagonist's heroic willpower. |
2010-08-23, 14:08 | Link #2636 | |||||||||
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Age: 39
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As for UBW, whilst they are indeed in London, I'd imagine that Shirou would, at some point, chew Rin out over her attitude to her sister and attempt to reconcile them, so she's not lost all hope there either. Quote:
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In terms of sadism, Zouken is much like the average person. He enjoys seeing people he hates suffer and prefers to make people he likes do reasonably well. It's just that he's purely selfish and will hurt anyone it takes to achieve his goal. Because he saw making Sakura suffer as the best way to get the Grail (partially because it's the only way she could learn his magic, and partially because of the connection he gave her to Angra Mainyu), then that's what he did, but if treating her like a princess had been the best way for him to get the Grail, then she would have lived the life of a princess, because he tortured her solely because it was necessary for him to force her to obey him, teach her his magic and train her body to cope with Angra Mainyu. If Zouken were truly sadistic, then Shinji would have died long ago. At very least, his goal >> everything else. So, therefore, he will gladly abandon Sakura in a second if that is the best way to achieve it. Having said that, his current set-up is pretty cosy, and he's not going to abandon his pet project and remove his soul worm from its safe hiding place just because Rin might be watching him a bit more closely. And, if he was going to, he'd likely take her body anyway. Leaving her alive and free is just too risky, because she is likely to tell someone about him, and it's always an extra body, which saves him hunting one down. Quote:
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2010-08-23, 14:16 | Link #2637 |
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Age: 38
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Possibly because HF is the only route that does any worthwhile flash-forward? Fate does what, a few days or couple of weeks at most? UBW (T) does a month and a half, while UBW (G) does a few hours. HF (T) gives us two years, and HF (N) gives us about 50-70 years. So really, we don't get any really detailed information on what happens in the future for anyone outside of HF.
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2010-08-23, 14:30 | Link #2638 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 39
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Whilst we indeed do not know what happens to anyone post UBW or Fate (or, indeed, to Shirou and Sakura more than two years after HF True), we can take a decent guess. With Sakura, we have no idea, because her situation is simply entirely ignored. |
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fate/stay night, visual novel |
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