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[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Autumn Demon

Suppose the Quran burning does get canceled, would it be a victory for tolerance or a defeat for free speech?

The Christian pastor is an idiot for believing Islam causes more harm than any other religion. But it's troubling that an active military general would ask a citizen not to burn a book in a country where freedom of speech and religion are supposed to be a sacred rights. And I'd be willing to bet more Bibles have been burnt by atheists in America than Qurans by Christians. (Whenever missionaries showed up at my high school many of the Bibles they handed out would end up in the trash.)

It wouldn't be a defeat for free speech because it wasn't even struck down by law, people commenting against it never actually got the power to stop it, only voicing opposition. So in that case they didn't exert their will over the pastor, in the end it was the pastor's choice to stop/suspend it regardless of opposition. It's not a defeat for free speech that way.

On the other hand it ain't a victory for tolerance either because this is almost obviously a late excuse for him to cover his own ass against mounting concerns and public opinion, not because he's seen just how misanthropic his actions are.

[Autumn Demon]

Government is not the only force that can abridge freedoms of speech. A free society, too, should not condemn the actions of private individuals that harm no one. The same logic politicians and military officials are using to make would-be Quran burners feel guilty about revenge attacks by extremists can be used to support censorship of drawings of Muhammad. A person who burns a Quran is guilty of no crime; the Supreme Court would agree. The media needs to stop giving these people so much coverage.

And if this Christian goes through with burning Qurans, I hope an equal number of Bibles and Torahs are burnt as well (they're all the same, word for word in many parts).

[sa547]

Originally Posted by Vexx

The comments under the Peter Payne article are hilarious....

The comments quickly veered off into a full-scale debate fest, with troll comments included.

@sidenote: for some who don't know, Payne's the man operating J-list.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Autumn Demon

Government is not the only force that can abridge freedoms of speech. A free society, too, should not condemn the actions of private individuals that harm no one. The same logic politicians and military officials are using to make would-be Quran burners feel guilty about revenge attacks by extremists can be used to support censorship of drawings of Muhammad. A person who burns a Quran is guilty of no crime; the Supreme Court would agree. The media needs to stop giving these people so much coverage.

And if this Christian goes through with burning Qurans, I hope an equal number of Bibles and Torahs are burnt as well (they're all the same, word for word in many parts).

Practicallly, a free society won't condemn the actions as much because most people simply won't care, i.e NIMBY=NMP (Not In My Backyard=Not My Problem) mentality. It is only the select few that makes noise, which the media picks up to generate profit, and pass the message down.

Of course, the 50% rule of information passing applies.

Originally Posted by sa547

@sidenote: for some who don't know, Payne's the man operating J-list.

Where did you get that from?

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Where did you get that from?

I get his j-list email newsletter... but didn't make the connection to the article. Heh.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

That is taking the freedom of speech into the wrong concept. Remember that whatever information that comes out of the mouth HAS to go through the cerebal cortex FIRST, thus one is free to say anything as long as it passes through the brain.

No, it doesn't. As I often say in such debates, freedom of speech has to apply to those you really wish would shut up, or there's no point. Yes, it'd be better if everyone was smart. But trying to define and ban idiocy's a sucker's game.

The pastor never thought of the other religious leaders and their specific communities, so that isn't exactly the freedom of speech in the First Amendment,

Sure, he did, and yes, it is. It just happens that his conclusion was "suck it". As is his First Amendment given right.

where it prohibits the making of any law 'respecting an establishment of religion', impeding the free exercise of religion, infringing on the freedom of speech, infringing on the freedom of the press, interfering with the right to peaceably assemble or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances.

He's not impending religion. There is no shortage of Quran and they can always print more.

[Slick_rick]

I don't understand this debate on freedom of speech. How is anyone impeding this pastor's ability to say what he wants? I don't see it. In fact others are just exercising their freedom of speech to tell him than he's a jackass and stupid for doing this. No one is suggesting sending in swat teams to take him down if he attempts to do it. He has every right to burn a Quran, if he actually bought and pay for it of course, but others can certainly tell him that doing so it pointless, going to cause more trouble than help anything, and the act of a idiotic bigot. Those are certainly the opinion many have and have a right to express. They certainly also have the right to try to persuade him to not go through with it either.

Lets get something clear cause I see a lot of people making this mistake about the first amendment. It does not in anyway grant you the ability to say whatever you want while avoiding avoiding facing criticism or consequences from those words or acts. In fact it is used for the complete opposite. It is to make sure the government does not take away your right from criticizing it or anything you feel is wrong or your dislike as long as you do it peacefully.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

I don't understand this debate on freedom of speech. How is anyone impeding this pastor's ability to say what he wants? I don't see it. In fact others are just exercising their freedom of speech to tell him than he's a jackass and stupid for doing this. No one is suggesting sending in swat teams to take him down if he attempts to do it. He has every right to burn a Quran, if he actually bought and pay for it of course, but others can certainly tell him that doing so it pointless, going to cause more trouble than help anything, and the act of a idiotic bigot. Those are certainly the opinion many have and have a right to express. They certainly also have the right to try to persuade him to not go through with it either.

Lets get something clear cause I see a lot of people making this mistake about the first amendment. It does not in anyway grant you the ability to say whatever you want while avoiding avoiding facing criticism or consequences from those words or acts. In fact it is used for the complete opposite. It is to make sure the government does not take away your right from criticizing it or anything you feel is wrong or your dislike as long as you do it peacefully.

There you go, bringing nasty facts into an emotional swirl-fest

[sa547]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Where did you get that from?

Payne's J-List Twitter.

And, for the last two cents, it's mighty amazing and disappointing that it takes one pastor to rouse up the whole planet, just as a lone, hostage-taking ex-cop almost toppled down a government and invited war.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by sa547

Payne's J-List Twitter.

And, for the last two cents, it's mighty amazing and disappointing that it takes one pastor to rouse up the whole planet, just as a lone, hostage-taking ex-cop almost toppled down a government and invited war.

The power of one individual, as a detonator for the crowds.

[MrTerrorist]

More than 230,000 Japanese centenarians 'missing'


Ugghhh....... 230,000 mummies.......

[sa547]

Originally Posted by MrTerrorist

More than 230,000 Japanese centenarians 'missing'


Ugghhh....... 230,000 mummies.......

Seems that it's the only red-tape thing in Japan that computerization had forgotten.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by MrTerrorist

More than 230,000 Japanese centenarians 'missing'


Ugghhh....... 230,000 mummies.......

More like inertial bureaucratic snafu on a large scale. The US and other countries have this problem to some extent (often fraud by the surviving family members who want the pension/socialsecurity to continue). Some percentage have died and the rest have inaccurate records because no one ever followed up. Whats really embarrassing is that Japanese don't have quite as many hyper-elderly people as they thought and now their entire census functionality is being questioned at the international level.

[Tiberium Wolf]

Originally Posted by MrTerrorist

More than 230,000 Japanese centenarians 'missing'


Ugghhh....... 230,000 mummies.......

I guess if they solve this then Japan economic problem is solved. I think if they don't search just for the 100ish ppl and a little bit below that number will rise a lot.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Tiberium Wolf

I guess if they solve this then Japan economic problem is solved. I think if they don't search just for the 100ish ppl and a little bit below that number will rise a lot.

Japan supposedly faces the same problem as Singapore and a few other SEA countries - aging population. The undocumented deaths of the centenarians could push opposing wing political parties to reduce the pension payouts to the elderly and increasing the financial load of the shrinking younger generation, in which a proportion are NEETs or hikkis.

Besides, Japanese work ethic is an overkill where the workers are expected and supposed to slog their ass off to feed themselves. Increasing taxes won't solve the problem, another kind of solution is needed to maintain the tax rate, redocument the dead to reallocate the parliament's yearly pension budget AND boost economic growth out of stagnation.

However, there might be a possibility that it may help in Japanese's economic problem, by cutting the national budget the government can go on a financial diet (pun unintended).

[Tiberium Wolf]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Japan supposedly faces the same problem as Singapore and a few other SEA countries - aging population. The undocumented deaths of the centenarians could push opposing wing political parties to reduce the pension payouts to the elderly and increasing the financial load of the shrinking younger generation, in which a proportion are NEETs or hikkis.

Besides, Japanese work ethic is an overkill where the workers are expected and supposed to slog their ass off to feed themselves. Increasing taxes won't solve the problem, another kind of solution is needed to maintain the tax rate, redocument the dead to reallocate the parliament's yearly pension budget AND boost economic growth out of stagnation.

However, there might be a possibility that it may help in Japanese's economic problem, by cutting the national budget the government can go on a financial diet (pun unintended).

I was talking about more of if there is 230.000 100ish ppl missing and if they start searching for example from 80ish up instead the number must be much greater. Now they need to figure out which ones are alive or not. Look at the other case in the US where there was a employee playing hooky for 12 or so years. Gov pays and never checks who they are paying for and that happens everywhere.

Anyway I think reform structure in most countries is nearly dead. Ppl get to live more and then the active population can't finance them all.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Japan supposedly faces the same problem as Singapore and a few other SEA countries - aging population.

Or possibly massive pension fraud.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Or possibly massive pension fraud.

If only it is that easy to carry that out here, I wouldn't have to worry about my future job. I have two parents to feed in 5 years time, and possibly a third one if both of them decide to divorce and my dad decides to remarry.

Then throw in tax, CPF contribution, etc, heck I don't even have enough to buy anime figurines, my own home and a grand piano.

Originally Posted by Tiberium Wolf

Anyway I think reform structure in most countries is nearly dead. Ppl get to live more and then the active population can't finance them all.

I guess it is a problem of not having an immediate solution to problems. Most of the old people don't want to work anymore, but throughout their worklife they :

1. Didn't have children.
2. Didn't put money into investments.
3. Didn't save enough to last them for at least 40 years.

Almost all the oldies want to retire at 50-60, and none of them had really saved enough for themselves or their children. The real issue lies with family planning I think.

Sometimes I wonder how do people like Vexx and Seiji maintain happy families at their age where many people fail to do so. And I do envy their children and them.

OTOH :

Anti-Islam pastor called controlling, "mad"

(Reuters) - The Florida Christian preacher who has received world fame and condemnation by threatening to burn a pile of Korans demands strict obedience and unpaid labor from his tiny flock and sells used furniture out of his sanctuary, those who know him say.

He was ejected from a church he headed in Germany by his own followers. Even his daughter says she believes he has lost his mind in his fanatical crusade against Islam.

Terry Jones, a previously obscure 58-year-old fundamentalist pastor with slicked-back gray hair and a shaggy mustache, has gained a global pulpit with his proposed burning of Korans, the Islamic holy book.

His estranged daughter, Emma Jones, called the church a cult that forced obedience through "mental violence" and threats of God's punishment. She said he ignored her emails urging him not to burn Korans.

"I think he has gone mad," she told Germany's Spiegel Online.

President Barack Obama seemed unwilling to bolster Jones' sudden fame when he referred to him in a news conference on Friday as "the individual down in Florida" without mentioning his name.

But Obama said Koran-burning could badly damage the United States abroad and endanger the lives of Americans.

Jones' nondenominational Dove World Outreach Center in Gainesville, Florida, has only a few dozen members.

And until the former hotel manager launched "International Burn a Koran Day" -- which is now on hold -- he was relatively unknown except to his Gainesville neighbors and his former congregation in Cologne, Germany.

His detractors describe a controlling man who preached that working for his obscure church was the only route to salvation and that leaving would bring damnation.

Dove World members live in properties owned by the church or by Jones and his wife Sylvia, and work 40 hours a week as volunteers packing and selling used furniture and merchandise with anti-Islam slogans over the Internet, the Gainesville Sun newspaper said.

Dove World last year lost part of the tax-exempt status that U.S. churches enjoy when the local appraiser determined that part of the property was used as a for-profit business and was therefore subject to taxation.

"DELUSIONAL PERSONALITY"

The church in Gainesville also ran an academy where a half dozen live-in students underwent a three-year program aimed at breaking their pride and teaching them "to humble themselves not only under God's mighty hand but under the hand of man as well," the Gainesville Sun in a report last year quoted Sylvia Jones as saying.

The newspaper in a 2009 report posted an academy rule book, which it said was outdated, that described the school's strict regime.

Students had to follow orders, ask permission to speak, submit to weekly weigh-ins and room inspections, and avoid sweets, alcohol and restaurants, it said. They were forbidden to have romantic relationships or phone or visit family or friends, even if it meant missing weddings and funerals.

Since 2001, Jones had divided his time between Florida and Germany. Parishioners ousted Jones in 2008 from the Christian Community of Cologne, the church he ran in Germany, where he lived for decades. He was booted out because of his radicalism and suspicion of financial abuses, Spiegel Online said.

Andrew Schafer, a Protestant Church official responsible for monitoring sects in the Cologne region, said Jones seemed to have a "delusional personality" and brainwashed his flock.

Its members, who numbered between 800 and 1,000, were required to work in his food bank charities, he said.

Jones seemed to consider Cologne "a city of Hell that was founded by Nero's mother," and thought Germany was "a key country for the supposed Christian revival of Europe," Schafer told Spiegel Online.

Jones demonized homosexuals -- including the gay mayor of Gainesville -- and increasingly targeted Islam in his sermons, preaching that Muslims were trying to take over the United States and impose Sharia law.

Children in his Florida congregation were sent to school wearing T-shirts that proclaimed "Islam is of the Devil," until school officials banned the shirts.

Jones' son, Luke Jones, told reporters the group's aim in burning Korans was "to confront a religion which we believe is leading people to hell."

"Think of me as crazy. Think of us as crazy. That's up to you."

Luke Jones and at least one other church follower have taken to wearing holstered handguns on their hips after death threats against them.

Florida pastor's daughter says "he needs help"

(Reuters) - The estranged daughter of a U.S. pastor who has threatened to burn copies of the Koran believes he has gone mad and needs help, she said in a German media interview conducted on Friday.

Emma Jones, who lives in Germany, told Spiegel Online she had e-mailed her father urging him to drop his plan to burn copies of the Islamic holy book, writing: "Dad, leave it be!"

He did not reply, she said.

Facing an outpouring of concern from U.S. leaders and anger from Muslims worldwide, Pastor Terry Jones, of Gainesville, Florida, said on Friday he no longer planned to burn the Koran on the anniversary of the September 11 attacks.

But Jones appeared to leave open the possibility he could change his mind if a proposed meeting fails to take place on Saturday in New York with Muslim leaders planning to build an Islamic center and mosque near the site of the September 11 attacks.

"My father is not one to give up," said Emma Jones, 30. "As a daughter, I see the good-natured core inside him. But I think he needs help."

"I think he has gone mad," she added.

She described how a Christian community her father spent years building in Cologne, Germany was at first Bible-orientated but later changed. After leaving the community aged 17, Emma Jones said she returned in 2005 to find it had become sect-like.

"I saw that my father preached and did things that I didn't find biblical at all. He demanded total allegiance to himself and his second wife," she said. His first wife, her mother, died in 1996.

"That was real religious delusion I saw," she added. "Typical evidence of a sect."

Emma Jones said the community kicked out her father in 2008, when he returned to the United States.

"I really hope he comes to his senses," she said.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

OTOH :

Anti-Islam pastor called controlling, "mad"



Florida pastor's daughter says "he needs help"

Not really surprising, giving the guy, probably closer of the talibans than of his fellows citizens.

[Vexx]

Practically, the only difference between extremists of any faith is whether they think they'll be held accountable if they commit violence.