Macross Delta - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll

[Dash_Hunter]

Good episode, we had character development, a new song, a good battle scene and the obligatory monster scene.

Finally one of the 6 knights died (Cassim ;_; ) but none of Delta was responsible for it lol, it's kind of weird and funny how Hayate was so worried about Cassim crashing but Cassim was about to kill Hayate if his body would have hold up a bit longer.

Mirage was good in this episode too, so why is everyone angry about it? is it because it wasn't precious Freyja and Hayate alone resolving their problem? come on! Freyja didn't know how to fix their problem, nor did Hayate, they were thinking quitting was their only option, Mirage promised to help and she did.
And no, I don't think their sychronization problem is resolved, Mirage helped this time, but they need to think about a permanent solution.

Originally Posted by dmaxzero

This is something that has bothered me since day one. Hayate prowess is not from skill but mahou shoujo powers. It makes all the achievements the show throws at you so lackluster. To me at the very least.

It has bothered me too since Hayate's exam, if you think about it all of Hayate's biggest achievements as a pilot (except his kill in ep. 6) are because of Freyja's boost.
At this point I would say that Hayate is the worst main character in Macross when it comes to piloting skills, Alto, Gamlin (because Basara would just sing to him ), Hikaru and Shin would destroy him in a 1 vs. 1 fight without any Idol interferance, not to mention Isamu because that would be overkill.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Dash_Hunter

Finally one of the 6 knights died (Cassim ;_; ) but none of Delta was responsible for it.

While I was sad about his death, because he's my favorite Windermerian besides Freyja, I'm glad he died in such beautiful way. His death and last moments were beautiful. All he thought about was protecting his planet's apple fields because it meant his son would have a future. It's really driving a point that he was still a farmer underneath and what he did was out of love, instead of revenge or hatred. Or greed/ambition in other characters' cases.

Spoiler for shirokishi manga:

Worst of all this month's character of Keith's manga. Cassim prefers to plant apples over joining the (pretty righteous) revolt against the NUNS. So yeah, he was just an apple farmer deep down, until the independence war ended.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Thess

Spoiler for oh kay?:

Cassim is an Aerial Knight. He's honorable sort who wouldn't shoot down disarmed enemies like that. So he didn't. What you're proposing is even worse. They are in enemy territory, they cannot afford to damage their VFs.

Again, I don't get any of your points. So we'll agree to disagree.

It's not painted in the light you're describing.

Spoiler for Cassim vs. Hayate:

Cassim literally goes in for the kill regardless of his mental state. Maybe if he'd allowed one of the Delta Squadron like -- oh yes, Mirage is in the area and had been since she sensed him [Hayate] going Var prior -- I'd believe in your view. However, Cassim does not allow Delta Squadron a chance and goes in for the kill even though a) Mirage is right by him and b) Hayate is technically not harming anyone in the scene so there is still time to save him.

Originally Posted by Thess

It's not rushed at all, but it was foreshadowed two episodes ago? No, it was about trust. I guess it'll be clear to you when the subs are out.

Again, not really.

Spoiler for "Promise me, if I go Var again you'll do me in.":

He did trust Mirage; however, more in the context of having her promise to "shoot him down" or "kill him" if he goes berserk like last time. And she promises, too.

And, she didn't follow through with her promise in this episode. After all, if not for her voice and Freyja singing to reach him in this moment, he could continue on his rampage. Again, it's not like I wish for him to die (I'm really happy she does help him live); it's only how it plays out which is a little too one-sided for Mirage caring for him more than Hayate cares for her.

(I also find it super ironic that he shows this by moving to shoot her and does not go even near Freyja or the others. )

Originally Posted by Thess

Edit: I can't believe I'm defending Mirage.

Me neither.

And I like defending Cassim even if he isn't one of my favorites in Delta (not even close to Messar) because I believe his end is very noble.

[BetoJR]

Jeez, Mirage actually does something and people still complain? Girl can't win.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Jeez, Mirage actually does something and people still complain? Girl can't win.

Hey, I'm not complaining!

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Jeez, Mirage actually does something and people still complain? Girl can't win.

All I'll say to this is hopefully next episode (because it's previewed like such) Mirage will be developing outside of the love triangle.

Because, at this point, although I know a dozen people on here wish for him to fall for her, I'd like her to develop towards accomplishing her original goals (or at least come close). I mean, Hayate and Freyja have both accomplished theirs (or most of them), meanwhile, I'm waiting for Mirage in this area. Right now, her falling in love with Hayate has distracted her from her original dream... which, is my major issue with Mirage.

I know I said comparing Frontier and Delta is a bad idea; however, at least all three leads in Frontier had dreams and did something to achieve those dreams. How is Mirage achieving her initial dream? How is she becoming an ace pilot or building towards one? If she is, none of this is shown on screen. And I know this is a writing issue and I believe it's her downfall as a character. Her role is a "love interest" and no writer in the series believes she should even come close to achieving an ace pilot status. And it pisses me off because... I want so bad to like her. She had a good personality and it's all scrapped for a love triangle slot...

And now, on the writing in Delta, I ironically wish this series could be written by Yoshino (even if I disagreed with Frontier's TV end and Guilty Crown's second half is a train wreck).

[Thess]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Right now, her falling in love with Hayate has distracted her from her original dream... which, is my major issue with Mirage.

She seems to be piloting just fine in the preview?

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Jeez, Mirage actually does something and people still complain? Girl can't win.

I am not complaining because it was foreseeable. What I haven't foreseen is that Mirage has shown timeclipping when she dodged Hayates shot.

Big Wow was the SLAP! Yes, THE Slap!

And I got my first part of a Jenius fighting scene with her tag team partner Hayate. > Taaaaaak, here we go...

All in all to be said. Delta wasn 't meant to be a singer pilot duo but a trio. And maybe an Harem ending?

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

I know I said comparing Frontier and Delta is a bad idea; however, at least all three leads in Frontier had dreams and did something to achieve those dreams. How is Mirage achieving her initial dream? How is she becoming an ace pilot or building towards one? If she is, none of this is shown on screen. And I know this is a writing issue and I believe it's her downfall as a character. Her role is a "love interest" and no writer in the series believes she should even come close to achieving an ace pilot status. And it pisses me off because... I want so bad to like her. She had a good personality and it's all scrapped for a love triangle slot...

And now, on the writing in Delta, I ironically wish this series could be written by Yoshino (even if I disagreed with Frontier's TV end and Guilty Crown's second half is a train wreck).

Of the spoken trio Mirage has already fulfilled her dream. She became a soldier and pilot like her ancestors. What has been missing her is someone to care for and being cared. Although Hayate and Mirage kept quarreling, they were always familiar to each other, even going that far that Hayate dreamed that his mom has been scolding him.

Actually she is already an ace pilot and what only misses her is the "heart". With Hayate she has it now unlocked.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Thess

She seems to be piloting just fine in the preview?

More like she and Freyja will have a little time to finally become friends...

Which is a secondary issue on the writing for Delta.
Her friendship with Freyja is coming out of nowhere, honestly. In fact, when she calls both of them "important friends," I had a second where I literally paused said episode and proceeded to recall where Mirage and Freyja really developed a bond of friendship outside of episode 13 and 14 (discounting their original meeting because she did not really know her then). If I'm supposed to care for this "feel good" love triangle, at least if all three could come off as close friends, I'd be a little less annoyed by underdeveloped plot issues (because at least its characters could be a little three-dimensional). For instance, Hayate and Freyja are good friends, and Hayate and Mirage are comrades, (both sides equally for the role of love interest, too); but Mirage and Freyja do not really have scenes where either is shown talking like we received on Frontier with Sheryl and Ranka (hell, even the movies had less screen time and a friendship blossomed for them). It's a little depressing, really. Freyja has friendships with Hayate, Mikumo, Makina, Reina, Kaname, and Chuck based on screen time with each (she knows a bit about each of these characters to a point where she'll give her life for all of them); however, until episode 13 and 14, no relationship formed with Mirage and if not for Hayate, their comradery could not exist even outside of she's a Delta member who'll protect Walkure. Then episode 19 rolls around, and she complains to Hayate (who is unconscious) about not knowing how to confront Freyja, and all I do is face palm because this is her opportunity to learn how. Then episode 20 comes and once she admits both are "irreplaceable friends" (regardless on if the "I love you" is for Hayate or not), I'm with Freyja on being confused. And in this episode, she is once again speaking about something she personally has no idea about (it's an area she is not a part of because she doesn't resonate with Freyja or need her music to fly like Hayate); it's not calling her a meddler, I do believe her heart is in the right place; but at this point, I believe it's important for the original members of this relationship (Hayate and Freyja, plus Mikumo who encouraged it) to fix their issues on their own. And I believe if she'd intervened in this episode only (and not in episode 20), I'd be a little more accepting of her help in this episode because she allowed them time to resolve their issues on their own by talking to each other (especially because no plot points happen for like a week in episode 20 and 21 so there is time for both to discuss their issues accordingly). In this episode, Mirage shows how little faith she has in Hayate and Freyja overcoming their obstacles (especially since last episode she said "why can't you resolve this on your own?").

This is also a reason for hope in the next episode: Hayate will be burying Cassim and Mirage and Freyja can build up this friendship I hope for.

However, at this point, it's likely a dying art: hoping for something in Delta.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Then episode 20 comes and once she admits both are "irreplaceable friends" (regardless on if the "I love you" is for Hayate or not)

It was addressed to both but honestly? We all know who she really meant with this words.

And if I am correct. Exact was: "And you're both important comrades to me. You're irreplaceable... and I love you."

It wasn't "you're - BOTH - irreplaceable.."

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

It was addressed to both but honestly? We all know who she really meant with this words.

And if I am correct. Exact was: "And you're both important comrades to me. You're irreplaceable... and I love you."

It wasn't "you're - BOTH - irreplaceable.."

And again, she is still addressing both because she never calls out one or the other when saying "I love you." In fact, she is continuing her first sentence by saying "you're irreplaceable" because again, she never addresses one or the other in more significance in her sentences. Therefore, it's justified why Freyja is confused and I sympathize with her on it.

[Father Hentai]

Look the scenes again. I won't discuss this a second time because it gets tired to convince you shippers about the love triangle between them. If you don't want to believe it, so be it. Since you ship with Freyja, I can write the shit out of each episode you will always find a reason to find negative points about rival character. And like other you haven't understood that the relationship was more a bromance than a romance. it's also one sided. but you won't even see this in your shipping. This said. Good night.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Look the scenes again.

We discussed this in the episode 20 thread prior and everyone agreed she is saying it to Hayate; however, viewer interpretation aside, her verb usage in Japanese and because she begins by telling them about how both are important to her (not specifically saying which one), the characters in said scene are reacting entirely different: Hayate is conflicted (and/or confused) and Freyja downright gasps in confusion.

You can argue viewer interpretation of said scene all you like, fact is: neither Hayate nor Freyja really grasped her confession in this scene, and I argue Freyja is as confused as Hayate is (even if he doesn't sound out his).

[Ura-dora]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

For instance, Hayate and Freyja are good friends, and Hayate and Mirage are comrades, (both sides equally for the role of love interest, too); but Mirage and Freyja do not really have scenes where either is shown talking like we received on Frontier with Sheryl and Ranka

I'm no fan of Mirage, however I think the love triangle aspect of the show, and your bias for Freyja, are compromising your judgment. Most of the things you've listed have been done, and some unneeded. For starters the label "good friends" and "comrades" can be reversed for either girls. At the end of the day Freyja is a member of Walkure, who is protected by her pilot (comrades), and Mirage has a very strong bond with Hayate (good friends). Freyja and Mirage are friends. They might not have a big sister/little sister vibe Sheryl and Ranka had, however their bond is there. Mirage and Freyja have interacted with each other on numerous occasions, along with interacting with each other around Hayate. The dialogue and interactions between Freyja and Mirage are always natural and flow well. You don't have to have a siblings relationship, or a best friend relationship, to have a good friend you both love and cherish. Again, I think a lot of people are half-watching the series and not focusing on what is there. Only what they think should be. For interactions with Freyja and Mirage I suggest watching episode 1, 3,4 ,5 ,7 ,13 ,14,15 ,19, and 20, without any biased thoughts.

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Freyja has friendships with Hayate, Mikumo, Makina, Reina, Kaname, and Chuck based on screen time with each (she knows a bit about each of these characters to a point where she'll give her life for all of them); however, until episode 13 and 14, no relationship formed with Mirage and if not for Hayate, their comradery could not exist even outside of she's a Delta member who'll protect Walkure.

What? The same thing I stated above applies here. Mirage has a very good bond with the members of Chaos. If you doubt this I suggest re-watching the episodes. Also Freyja is the NEW member of Chaos, its obvious they have to show her bonding with the rest of the members. I'm surprised you find this issue with Mirage, and not Hayate.

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Then episode 19 rolls around, and she complains to Hayate (who is unconscious) about not knowing how to confront Freyja, and all I do is face palm because this is her opportunity to learn how. Then episode 20 comes and once she admits both are "irreplaceable friends" (regardless on if the "I love you" is for Hayate or not), I'm with Freyja on being confused.

Biased opinion once again. She doesn't know what to do or say to comfort her at the moment. This doesn't mean they are aren't friends. There are times when a friend is grieving or in pain and you simple do not know what to do or say to comfort them. That doesn't mean you don't love that friend, or find them to be replaceable.

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

This is also a reason for hope in the next episode: Hayate will be burying Cassim and Mirage and Freyja can build up this friendship I hope for.

Again. That's your main issue. You want what you want, and not whats there. Friendships and relationships vary in a wide range. Some develop without you even noticing. Not all friendships are formed the way you want them to, nor is anyones feelings for another the way you want it to be.

Also, there is something you should remember. There is a fine line between friendship and comradeship.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Ura-dora

Also, there is something you should remember. There is a fine line between friendship and comradeship.

Comradeship can be ordered and ends when duty ends. That's neither the fact between Mirage and Hayate.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

More like she and Freyja will have a little time to finally become friends...

Eh, I was referring to the part she and Hayate seem to master a synchronized flying in the preview?

I think you're being a tad overdefensive over Mirage. I've said this in the past, just because a bond is important or the focus, it doesn't mean it'll be romantic. In Frontier, the most important relationship wasn't Alto/a girl, it was Sheryl's and Ranka's relationship (also the trio dynamics, but my point Kawamori said, iirc, he wanted to focus on those two's relationships above all, and called it a deep understanding that surpassed their relationship as rivals in love and song, etc, etc). And well, they weren't a romantic relationship, right? Frankly speaking, I thought the romance stuff cheapened the nice bond between Freyja and Hayate. Mirage is being developed in a triangle-centric way is either because she's either a throwaway character or, well, the love interest (or used for a random plot device like happened to Zessica in Evol, and I didn't see Mirage as relevant to the plot to warrant this so!). That has always been my stance. I just wished for her to be an interesting character too, but the writing has been terrible in general after episode 13.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Gravitas Free Zone

Spoiler for Episode 22:

Keith and the rest of the Knights are back at Alfheim with Chuck, which would ordinarily be really bad for Chuck. Keith is obviously very distracted by recent revelations. That doesn't totally cover why he fails to fight, but it's notable as a change.

Spoiler for Where the knights are at the end of this episode...:

Chuck's fine.

Keith, Bogue and Herman are on Randall (sp?) fighting Larrazábal and the other decoy forces, Theo is on Alfheim with Chuck, and Cassim and Xao followed Walküre and the rest of Delta to Windermere.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Originally Posted by karice67

Spoiler for Where the knights are at the end of this episode...:

Chuck's fine.

Keith, Bogue and Herman are on Randall (sp?) fighting Larrazábal and the other decoy forces, Theo is on Alfheim with Chuck, and Cassim and Xao followed Walküre and the rest of Delta to Windermere.

Thanks for the clarification. Without translation, the entire situation was a bit of a mess. (When you only see a tiny sliver of each planet for a few seconds, it's easy to forget who's where.)

[ReddyRedWolf]

Mikumo is aiming for the Imouto route!

What happened between Cassim and Hayate furthers my theory it was the Windermereans own telepathic hostile intentions causes Var in other people. Hayate was keeping in control till he made contact with Cassim. If so the Aerial Knights are partly to blame for the loss of Carlisle. Their own hate for foreigners destroyed their people. History may repeat itself.

Voldorians kicking Windermerean ass. What now that they are immune to tour mind hax?

[charles883]

My main theory was that their rune is main reason their lifespan short. Also most likely protoculture try to create a race can link mind using rune while enhanced their spatial awareness. However they found out the thing that make them powerful also shorten lifespan thus abandon experiment. Other words, Windermere are failed experiment. I wonder if my theory true and Windermere found out about it, are they willing to abandon their rune power to increase lifespan or not?

Spoiler for Spoiler:

Also RIP Cassim