Learning Japanese

[nikorai]

mendokusa
Thanks for providing additional info on historical kana. I should say that the modern writing is much less confusing (=user-friendly).
Also, your explanation about the use of "verb+object" is just awesome.

[mokopi]

Hi there~!

I've been learning japanese in a private language school for perhaps near to 2 years (inclusive of self learning before which) already and may be considered to be at the stage of JLPT3 (tho' I still feel I'm not adequate enuff for that level). Even so, my japanese seems to be very limited to the sentences pattern taught... like I can only form sentences with the sentence patterns I've learnt and combining them etc...

From what I've read from this forum so far, I see japanese sentences that are not of the normal sentence pattern perhaps... with the addition of slangs and short forms and maybe dialects.

My question here is I'm curious with seemingly pro ppl like Vexx... Mystique... LibreLibri... and perhaps more from what I see... how do you guys go about learning this language and how long does it it take you to reach this level that you are now? Cos I feel like I'm not progressing at all... lol...

Just curious to know how long and often you guys practice, in what ways and how long to have reach this standard of today

[nikorai]

Uh, I've never heard that Vexx-san was an expert in Japanese. As experienced as he is I've never seen him talking in Japanese here. And I have to note that we have a number of native speakers here. And you know, like it or not but competing with natives is pretty hard no matter how long you study the language, especially when it comes to Japanese.

Other than that, I think that there's nothing wrong in learning patterns and combining them. I personally find doing back-translations excercises a very effective way to learn a language. In language classes such excercises are normally combined with conversation and that gives the best results.
As for me, I made various attempts to learn Japanese for the last 5 years. It's almost entirely self-studies and I'm terrible at the language but I think it's better than nothing, after all. And I really want to think that I went away from lvl 3 and made just a few steps toward level 2 actually.　２級を目指しています。

I should say that Japanese for me is a hobby. My native language is Russian (because I'm Russian myself. It's logical, huh?) and I studied English and French at the uni. I'm much better at these languages than Japanese because of lots of practice. Normally you have like 10 classes a week at the uni. And it's like that for 5 years so sooner or later you start to speak fluently and you get to speak almost on any topic. So, it's all about time and effort you put into your studies.

[mendokusa]

practice makes perfect.習うより慣れろ

normally japanese have learned 1945 japanese kanji for 9 years(from 6 age to 15 age).
if you do your best,maybe you will be faster than that.

when you wanna use japanese,you would write here in japanese.
then if need,I'd tell you took mistake or unnatural writing.

漢練箱（kanji practice box）
part2
part3
↑German explanation for training japanese kanji.

[Mystique]

Originally Posted by mokopi

Hi there~!

I've been learning japanese in a private language school for perhaps near to 2 years (inclusive of self learning before which) already and may be considered to be at the stage of JLPT3 (tho' I still feel I'm not adequate enuff for that level). Even so, my japanese seems to be very limited to the sentences pattern taught... like I can only form sentences with the sentence patterns I've learnt and combining them etc...

From what I've read from this forum so far, I see japanese sentences that are not of the normal sentence pattern perhaps... with the addition of slangs and short forms and maybe dialects.

My question here is I'm curious with seemingly pro ppl like Vexx... Mystique... LibreLibri... and perhaps more from what I see... how do you guys go about learning this language and how long does it it take you to reach this level that you are now? Cos I feel like I'm not progressing at all... lol...

Just curious to know how long and often you guys practice, in what ways and how long to have reach this standard of today

I think that's all it is with me:
"Seemingly" xD
Aohige and a few others here are levels way above mine, so I'm happy to stick in the "upper intermediate" group.
In Libri's case, he's a Japanese native who has studied abroad, so he's well bi-lingual, I'm still trudging up that road to get there someday

Anyways to answer your question:

In my case, it's through pure blood, sweat and tears and mass braincell suicide to be honest, I'm not gifted with languages
For me, I decided to take on Japanese from scratch aged 19 which English being the only language I could speak.
(Thus don't have a bilingual brain as a kid).
This was done at uni, so while they taught us from step 1, the pace was intense.
Very very very intense.
If we didn't keep up, we were gonna fall behind, fail modules and not be allowed to study abroad in Japan in our 3rd year. Fortunately for me, I excel within a classroom environment, so I did quite well over the years.
So we learnt and were tested on a weekly basis on kana and kanji and listening from the second week onwards (first week was to tell us that we had a test next week, lol).
Saying that, my learning of Japanese has been under a fairly strict, fast paced environment and even more so when I studied at uni in Tokyo as part of my course (we had some old school strict ass Japanese teachers there).

Alike you, I have the same problem, at present, I think it's almost safe to say that my speaking is the weakest skillset now.
Classroom is great and sure we can learn and memorise the grammar points and vocab, but how do we use them seamingly naturally so that it flows almost as good as a native.

For that, you need to speak to natives and surround yourself in the environment of them.
Some of the best Japanese gaijin speakers i've come across have never been in a classroom but they merely copied.
They looked up words they didn't understand, copied entire sentences and phrases for certain situations and mimiced linguist nuances that the natives used or what they've heard/seen from TV or drama and built up from there.
They asked friends if they're making mistakes and keep note of corrections, but they always try to speak and keep on picking up what they hear.

Alike a child, you absorb what's around you and thus your speech starts to become smoother and flows better. With use of good idioms, it then doesn't become so textbook stiff and 'grammatically correct', but you'd need some exposure outside of the classroom to get that extra element to what you know.

For me, reading/writing tends to be my strengths, so I'm somewhat of a kanji geek and I can break down and explain stuff on this forum, but by no means am I an expert.
I still struggle with speaking in a 'natural, flowing' sense, it is limited by certain sentence patterns or lack of vocab, so I have to resort to basic stuff, despite mentally knowing a hell of a lot more.

I finished uni stuffs in ‘06 and remained in the UK for a further 2 years before returning back to Tokyo last year. Since then, my brain has been assaulted with deja vu things that I learnt as a student after my 2 year break of not studying the language, and with kanji being around me and watching lots of J-dramas and hearing the natives here, I’m somewhat picking up things again and sharpening my receptive skills.
For study, I self study kanji and grammar from my textbooks by myself, hence probably why speaking is now my weakest skillset.

As for improvement?
Keep practicing and don't analyse it.
Don't set a time by it (well not for speech), don't nit pick it, just go with it.
(I say this from personal experience)
You'll see how you’ve progressed when you look back a few months, but you’ll never see it while you’re actively studying, especially during intermediate stage.
Naturally, if you keep at it often, you'll learn and know more than you did before, it's that kinda persistence that reaps its rewards in time.
Some people are naturally gifted to get it within months or a year.
Others (like me) take many many years and are just 'so so'.

It is frustrating, but all you can do is to keep at it and don't forget to enjoy it
Look towards VOIP programs or websites where you can language exchange and help each other out, those are usually good ways to interact with natives if you can’t afford the trip over here for mini spell.

[mokopi]

Thank you Nikoraiさん, Mendokusaさん and Mystique さん for the valuable feedback

@Mystique さん
What you shared is awe-inspiring. I'm even more motivated now to continue to strive on learning this language even though it is really tough ^^

@Nikoraiさん
Haha, sry~ I wasn't even sure myself who's the expert here but some comments on the thread were pretty vivid. Perhaps that's why I quoted them But surely enough, they are way way way better than I am, that's for sure. And thanks for sharing your experiences. It was really motivating

@Mendokusaさん
うん～！一所懸命練習します！頑張ります！

Thank you so much, hahaha, this thread is really awesome. I'm so glad that I stumbled upon this site.

As of now and in the future, I will need guidance from all of you~!
よろしくお願いします～！ORZ

[Vexx]

I'm always most depressed by the amount of backtracking I have to do (relearning the same material). I feel like I have the grammar absolutely nailed. The protocol, etiquette, and verb endings under good control. But the vocabulary itself wanders away constantly as does the kanji. :P (sigh)

[nikorai]

Um, perhaps I spoke my mind a bit above about Vexx-san's Japanese. It's that he's notoriously known for spelling 'hajimimashite' in place of 'hajimemashite'. But please, no hard feelings!　 傷つけるつもりはなかったんです。許してください。
誰にでも間違いはあるさ。
Also, I should note that my health is pretty bad at the moment (possibly an operation will be needed) and I can kick the bucket at any time, so I won’t bother you guys much here anyway. 心臓の問題がありますから。眼も悪いです。今は治療中です。

mokopi

返事ありがとうございます。
ちょっと日本語で書いてみます。
実に、日本語を独学するのはとても難しいです。日本語翻訳学部に入ればよかったと思います。でも、進学した 時に日本語に興味になるとは知りませんでした。３年生のときに偶然日本語を勉強し始めました。また、フラン ス語も大好きです。大学でこれを学ぶいい機会を得ました。それもいいと思います。残念ながら、今は練習のチ ャンスは少ないです。

Mystiqueさんはラッキーですね。大学で日本語を勉強したり、日本に行ったりすることはいいことです 。日本に住むなんて、凄いですね。

[Mystique]

Originally Posted by nikorai

Um, perhaps I spoke my mind a bit above about Vexx-san's Japanese. It's that he's notoriously known for spelling 'hajimimashite' in place of 'hajimemashite'. But please, no hard feelings!　 傷つけるつもりはなかったんです。許してください。
誰にでも間違いはあるさ。
Also, I should note that my health is pretty bad at the moment (possibly an operation will be needed) and I can kick the bucket at any time, so I won’t bother you guys much here anyway. 心臓の問題がありますから。眼も悪いです。今は治療中です。

mokopi

返事ありがとうございます。
ちょっと日本語で書いてみます。
実に、日本語を独学するのはとても難しいです。日本語翻訳学部に入ればよかったと思います。でも、進学した 時に日本語に興味になるとは知りませんでした。３年生のときに偶然日本語を勉強し始めました。また、フラン ス語も大好きです。大学でこれを学ぶいい機会を得ました。それもいいと思います。残念ながら、今は練習のチ ャンスは少ないです。

Mystiqueさんはラッキーですね。大学で日本語を勉強したり、日本に行ったりすることはいいことです 。日本に住むなんて、凄いですね。

Lucky to come across the opportunity in a good UK university perhaps (Japanese culture practically non existant in the UK earlier this decade)
I'm just making use of what I have, but by no means am I having a 'fun' time with this, nor have I ended up where I am purely outta "luck".
Life isn't easy.
If you truly want something, you gotta go Naruto style and persue it with everything you got.

Good luck with the operation though
Thinking you're gonna keel over and die, will lessen your chances of survivng it, methinks the Docs will do their best to make the op a success but your survival and/or recovery depends purely on your will.
If that's gone, then yeah, you may be pushing up the dasies sooner rather than later, so perhaps as scared as you may be, be brave and hope for the best *hugs*

Typically, if you're directly addressing pple outside of their profile walls or PMs, english is encouraged.
Or a translation or romaji, but kana/kanji does alienate a majority of the board, so keep that in mind

[mendokusa]

でも、進学した 時に日本語に興味になるとは知りませんでした。

「~にni」が一つの文に隣接して３つもあると違和感があります。
there are three part of "~ni" on one sentence,so I think unnatural.

～はha～がga～にni～をwo～するsuru。

は、が、に、を、は一つの文に一つづつがわかりやすい。
It is plain to be one each of "~ha,~ga,~ni,~wo" on one sentence.

また、「興味になる」は
also,"kyoumi ni naru(be interested)" is
（物事thing）は（人human）の興味になる。
のように主語が（物事）になるので主語の部分を省略できない。
because subject is thing , can't miss that.
主語を（人）にするには
how to make subject human.
（人）は（物事）に興味を持つ(have)
（人）は（物事）に興味がある(be)
（人）は（物事）に興味が沸く(boil)

（１）～とは知りませんでした。
I didn't know that~.
（２）～とはわかりませんでした。
I didn't understand that~.
（３）～とは思いませんでした。
I didn't feel that~.
（１）when there is no memory in your brain
記憶にないとき
（２）when you didn't know how to do
やり方がわからないとき
（３）when you know thing beyond expectation
予想外なとき

進学して日本語に興味を持つとは思いませんでした。
that's natural.

whenever you want,I give you opportunity for japanese training.

[Rita]

Isn't no also: Ya, or yada?
And, aren't these from a book, I think it was Survival Japanese?

[Mystique]

Originally Posted by Rita

Isn't no also: Ya, or yada?
And, aren't these from a book, I think it was Survival Japanese?

It's not a direct 'no' but rather a refusal
否否 【いやいや】 (int) (uk) reluctantly, by no means, unwillingly, (P)

So you get 'iya' or 'iya da' or 'iya desu'
Depending on the level of politeness that you want.

It is also one of the most overused phrases in the damn language, esp by brats.
I swear half of the toddlers in Japan's first words have gotta be 'iyaaaaadaaaaaa~'
><

[nikorai]

Mystique
Thanks a lot for the encouragement. You're very kind.
Though I should say that the date for my operation is not set yet, so I'll be hanging around here for now.

mendokusa
Yeah, my try to use Japanese wasn't the best. But thanks a lot for the detailed explanation.

So, it's 'ha' 'ga' 'ni' 'wo'.
I should write it out in large bold font somewhere.

進学して日本語に興味を持つとは思いませんでした。

Now that I look at it I wonder why I didn't figure it out myself. In English you can say 'I didn't know that I would learn..." or "I didn't THINK that I would learn..." with practically the same meaning while the translation into Japanese is quite distinctive. Sorry, my bad.
I'll try to do better next time.

[mokopi]

Originally Posted by nikorai

Also, I should note that my health is pretty bad at the moment (possibly an operation will be needed) and I can kick the bucket at any time, so I won’t bother you guys much here anyway. 心臓の問題がありますから。眼も悪いです。今は治療中です。

お大事に～！D8
Take care~!

Nikoraiさんは二十四歳しかのに…
In spite of Nikorai san being only 24 years old...

死なないでください　D8

Nikoraiさんのために　お神様にNikoraiさんの体は元気になて行って祈って　しかりしてくださ い～！
I will pray for better health to God for Nikorai san, so pls hang in there!

[mokopi]

Originally Posted by Mystique

If you truly want something, you gotta go Naruto style and persue it with everything you got.

そうですね。しかし　Naruto は何時でも　何でも　一所懸命です。時々には　彼は人間じゃないかな　と思っています。
Isn't it.　But as for Naruto, no matter when and no matter what, he does to the utmost.　Sometimes I think he ain't human.

確かに、誰にもNaruto の戦いの精神がほしいですね。
Surely, anyone will want to have his fighting spirit, isn't it 8D

Naruto のように難しいですね～
I think it is difficult to be like Naruto.

On a random note, I am unable to tell at times whether I'd used the correct sentence pattern for the correct occassion, or, could I tell whether I'd combined the different sentence patterns together correctly.

[mendokusa]

mokopi

I'm think so too,but i feel that grammar unnatural.

二十四歳しかのに…

~しか - ない　~is number, - is verb.

"24 years old" is not number,but is state.
24years is number.
24年しか生きてないのに。

not use the expression ,but can be expressible.
まだ24歳なのに。

時々には　彼は人間じゃないかな　と思っています。

彼は人間じゃないかな is natural.

時々is adjunct,≒たまには

時々~~と思っています。
this expression is used when ~~'s ture is no problem.
else 時々~~と思ってしまいます。 is used.

~してしまう　when have mistake or error.

[nikorai]

mokopi

励ましてくれてありがとう。
Thanks for the encouragement.

この若さでまだ死にたくない。たから、死なないように頑張るんだ。

At a side note, I assume that mendokusa-san will have a lot of work if he were to check your Japanese.

[mokopi]

Originally Posted by nikorai

mokopi
At a side note, I assume that mendokusa-san will have a lot of work if he were to check your Japanese.

Ahahahaha 6^_^'' Just as what I am seeing now...

mendokusaさん

説明することは解かり易いですよ！
Your explanation is easy to understand!

Now I see where I've gone wrong. Will try not to repeat the mistake again

ありがとう～！

Nikoraiさんのために　お神様にNikoraiさんの体は元気になて行って祈って　しかりしてくださ い～！
I will pray for better health to God for Nikorai san, so pls hang in there!

Then, is this sentence even grammatically correct? I'm so not confident of myself sometimes D8

[nikorai]

mokopi
The first one should rather　be
あなたの説明は分かりやすいです。

Then, is this sentence even grammatically correct?

I personally have problems building complex sentences, so I would simply split that one in two.

ご健康をお祈り申し上げます。is extremely formal

I think that it should be something like
nikoraiの健康を祈ってるよ。しっかりして!
(not sure about using the tense and endings)

But let's wait for the corrections from the native speaker.

[mendokusa]

ここにいるみんなに健康を！
everyone there is here,give you good health.

この若さでまだ死にたくない。たから、死なないように頑張るんだ。

first sentence is only for myself(subject),but i feel second sentence for yourself.
for me
この若さでまだ死にたくない。だから、死なないように頑張っているんだ。（or頑張る。）
for you
その若さでまだ死んではいけない。だから死なないように頑張るんだ。（or頑張れ。）

nikoraiの健康を祈ってるよ。しっかりして!

It's better to be さんbehind name for doing honor to you.
nikoraiさんの健康を祈っているよ。
use family name,be 氏si　behind family name for more honor to you
nikorai氏の健康を祈っているよ。
氏is used on newspaper.
when say to someone's face ,normally use さん.