[Manga] Naruto Chapter 560 Discussion

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

I think the more reasonable answer is that Madara survived his fight with Hashirama, walking away badly injured having completed his goal of acquiring a sample of Hashirama's dna. In the years that followed, he would have had plenty of time to genetically engineer that giant Hashirama-plant as well as White Zetsu.

Since Madara had/has the Rinnegan, it's possible he could have simply used Izanagi to create Zetsu (and later Tobi).

And yes, old age seems like a sufficient theory for how Madara died.

[JustRob]

Originally Posted by Shiryuu

That's retarded. You said yourself that only the 2nd and Oro knew impure world. There would be no reason for Madara to suspect Tobi of anything since he doesn't know how to use that jutsu. Kabuto also isn't his assistant. They're just allied.


Seriously? Did you even read the past chapters? Madara only knows upto when Nagato was still a child.

Then he still knows who Tobi is.

[octaviahawk]

Ok. I'm going to have a vapid, rabid fangirl moment. You might want to avert your eyes, ye who are faint of heart.

OMG! OMG! Ok, I used to think Itachi was hands-down-the-hottest-ninja in the manga...but this week, I have been proved wrong. It's official: MADARA IS THE SMEXY-EST MAN ALIVE...er...I mean, dead-but-revived-alive. OMG! SO HOT!

*swoons* sorry Itachi. I really am.

*clears throat* getting back to the actual manga, man. Madara is bad ass. I'm really going to enjoy all the ass-kicking he is going to do, it's going to be totally sweet.

On a side note, I'm hoping that the canon doesn't completely mess up the fanfic I'm writing...oh lordy lord, and I'm almost at the end of it too!

(dears gods, I am an epic dork. someone please save me...)

Anyway, great chapter! Gah!

[JustRob]

Well I agree on that. I used to think Tobi was more badass, but with his change of mask and with Madara's epic hairstyle that surpasses even Super Saiyan 3, he gets first place on the list of badasses.

[Kallen4life]

Madara is just wearing this constant I'm-stronger-then-you-and-gonna-fuck-you-up-bad look

LIKE A BOSS



if Madara meant HIM as Orochi - why the hell would he be asking who Edo Tensei'd him - he'd think it was Orochi .. the only reason Orochi has any kind of connection to this whole thing (& to Madara) at all is that he knew ET .. otherwise he's dead & gone .. Tobi makes more sense

[Cael]

I thought the way to awaken the Rinnegan was to combine Uchiha eyes with a Senju body. Madara stole Hashirama's DNA during their fight. Sounds to me like that's how he was able to awaken the Rinnegan shortly before his death.

Sharingan > MS > EMS > EMS + Senju = Rinnegan

Kabuto could have used any number of things to improve Madara's body; using a senju host, using Yamato, using Zetsu... any of which would be an upgrade from his original body + Senju DNA, since a full blown Senju body would be superior.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

I think many people had already guessed that the Stone Monument contained instructions on how to evolve the Sharingan to MS then EMS and then Rinnegan. Possibly there is a final stage in the evolution that involves the collection of Tailed-Beasts.

This chapter answered the question I had from last week, which was 'where is Madara's rinnegan?' According to Tobi, Madara was the second 6-path sage, so it is expected that he would possess the Rinnegan. Also, Tobi claims that Nagato got his Rinnegan from Madara. This implies that Madara's eyes became Nagato's Rinnegan, and that Tobi did not have Madara's eyes at all. Who is the owner of Tobi's warping Sharingan?

Another question that needs to be answered is 'when did Madara die?'

If you say that Madara died shortly after his battle with Hashirama, then you are left with a dilemma because Madara knows both Nagato and HIM (aka Tobi). Without some sort of time trickery, or something along the lines of cryogenic freezing, Nagato isn't old enough to have been born before the VoTE fight.

I think the more reasonable answer is that Madara survived his fight with Hashirama, walking away badly injured having completed his goal of acquiring a sample of Hashirama's dna. In the years that followed, he would have had plenty of time to genetically engineer that giant Hashirama-plant as well as White Zetsu.

How did Madara die then? Well, by the time Nagato was born, Madara would have been an old man. He could have died of old age. Or, Madara's death could have been a necessary step in awakening the Rinnegan (otherwise, it's only coincidence that he died shortly after awakening it). If this is true, then Madara would have to create some plan to resurrect himself. This is where Tobi comes in. Tobi could be a creation of both Madara and Zetsu that was entrusted with the task of carrying out Madara's goals until he could be rezzed. Tobi seems to have Madara's memories, but the body is different.

It's not clear why Madara's awakened Rinnegan was given to Nagato, however. Why didn't he give it to Tobi instead?

Yeah pretty much.
Madara's youth can also be explained now with Kabuto explaining he "improved" Madara. He resuscitated him in his physical prime AND with the power he had unlocked later in his life before his impending death made him plan for the creation of the 3rd Sage in order to be resurrected.
As using Nagato to nurture the Rinnengan instead of using Tobi, I suppose it wasn't possible with the whole "shell of his former self" going on. Only a Rikudou Sennin at the height of his power could bring him back from the dead and whatever is Tobi, he didn't have what it took.

[Alchemist007]

So beating Madara should be a harder precursor to the punk Sasuke if he only has MS.

[Sinaura]

Originally Posted by qwertyuiopz

3rd hokage was holding his own agaisnt both 1st and 2nd hokage

how exactly did the 1st beat madara?

My theory on this is that the 3rd was the most badass shinobi to ever live since the Sage. He fought evenly against them at the tender age of 70 something. The guy's a beast.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Hunter

As using Nagato to nurture the Rinnengan instead of using Tobi, I suppose it wasn't possible with the whole "shell of his former self" going on. Only a Rikudou Sennin at the height of his power could bring him back from the dead and whatever is Tobi, he didn't have what it took.

It seems to me that the clones Zetsu creates are much weaker than the original, despite looking like perfect copies. Tobi's body is Zetsu's creation, so it obviously is nowhere near the power of either Madara's or Hashirama's body, despite it is most likely the combination of the genetic material of both Madara and Hashirama. Examples of Zetsu's weakness are the Kisame clone, the clones he made in this war and of course Tobi himself. So i think that the eyes simply didn't work well in Tobi's body, maybe did work to some lesser extent since the body has the DNA that is needed, but assuming that the resurrection of people is an advanced jutsu, it could not be made by Tobi.

This also means that an Uzumaki body is good enough for the eyes, similarily as an Uchiha body is needed for a fully functional sharingan eye (for example Kakashi can't use the eyes properly, he is either limited or he risks to die). And this is why my theory was that the Sage of 6 paths was an Uzumaki himself, however his rinnegan was a unique genetic mutation that no other Uzumaki had. But his Uzumaki body was a very good container for the rinnegan, so even if Uzumaki people like Naruto have nothing to do with the rinnegan ifself, but the body is ideal to contain it. The various forms and states of the sharingan are simply degenerated forms of the rinnegan, and those among the Uchiha who had inherited more of the original rinnegan mutation are closer to the rinnegan: they are able to awaken the MS. When they combine two MS DNA: the MS user's eyes implanted into another MS's user's body, which means two somewhat degenerated set of rinnegan-DNA, they get one step closer to the rinnegan, that is EMS. But the last step needs the DNA of the Senju or the original Uzumaki DNA.

Of course this whole thing could go in a much less scientific way, a simple story similar to the one of Goku and the saiyans:
A legendary super-saiyan who awakened the power = a legendary sage who awakened the rinnegan
rinnegan - Uzumaki = super - Saiyan (Uchiha and Senju simply descendants of Uzumaki)
Naruto = Goku
Sasuke = Vegeta
9 demons = dragon balls
Tobi = Freeza ( killed the Uchiha and Uzumaki clans )
Kabuto = Dr.Gero
??? = Cell ( the next main evil guy after Tobi/Madara is defeated, Kabuto's creation )


Going with the first idea means that Naruto will never have rinnegan, but going with the second means that Naruto can awaken the rinnegan eventually.
It would also mean that Sasuke can have the rinnegan too.

But i prefer the 1st idea, where neither Sasuke nor Naruto can have the rinnegan. In that case whatever powerups they will get it will be more unique to them, not just another rinnegan user. For Naruto i think the powerup was already hinted: the markings on his body seem to be something that is unfinished, he didn't yet combine sage mode and kyuubi mode, and he did tame only half of the kyuubi. For Sasuke it's hard to tell, i don't see what could be beyond EMS, other than rinnegan.

[AvalonCode]

This starting to get confusing now. Maybe we are being trolled. It would be funny if the guy under the mask was in fact "Obito". Man that would Fail on so many lvl's. Im willing to bet that Tobi is either the 1st, 2nd or 4th Hokage. Besides when is Kishi gonna res Minato and Kushina anyway? If Orochi has the DNA from as far back as Madara and Hashi then I know that he has DNA from The 3rd and 4th Hokage. I really wanna know who's under that mask now!!

[JustRob]

Firstly, the 4th fought Tobi, so no he's not the guy under the mask. And I'm pretty sure the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Hokages souls have been sealed by the Sealing Technique, which means they can never be revived again.

[Shining Celebi]

Originally Posted by Sinaura

My theory on this is that the 3rd was the most badass shinobi to ever live since the Sage. He fought evenly against them at the tender age of 70 something. The guy's a beast.

Well, he was called the "god of shinobi," after all. The problem is that over time Kishimoto has made more and more powerful characters more and more powerful, so when we look back to the time of Part 1, Sarutobi seems rather pathetic.

Remember when Zabuza was fearsome, Itachi told Kisame the best option against the Sannin was to retreat, and Orochimaru was so powerful he made Kakashi shake in fear? All these characters are just fodder now.

[d3monlord]

the meteor thing that madara summoned..i think is the body of juubi that's been sealed by the Sage of the Six paths. The Moon....

[james0246]

So, does Sasuke going after Zetsu mean he is trying to acquire some Senjuu DNA to create the Rinnegan?

Originally Posted by d3monlord

the meteor thing that madara summoned..i think is the body of juubi that's been sealed by the Sage of the Six paths. The Moon....

That was my guess as well. (It would certainly advance the story for the Jyuubi to appear.)

[SeanQ]

Originally Posted by james0246

So, does Sasuke going after Zetsu mean he is trying to acquire some Senjuu DNA to create the Rinnegan?



That was my guess as well. (It would certainly advance the story for the Jyuubi to appear.)

Sasuke knows nothing about the Rinnegan...and he's just practicing on them Zetsus.

[d3monlord]

madara want to become one with the juubi and become a god himself... anyway.. who created the juubi?? do you know about this??

[james0246]

Originally Posted by SeanQ

Sasuke knows nothing about the Rinnegan...and he's just practicing on them Zetsus.

He did read at least one of the Uchiha tablets, so who's to say what he knows or doesn't know.

[d3monlord]

sasuke doesn't know.. all the information was said to him by itachi and tobi.. but not the whole thing..

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by d3monlord

madara want to become one with the juubi and become a god himself... anyway.. who created the juubi?? do you know about this??

Nothing is known about it's origin, so we can freely create our theories
I think it's the product of one of the sage of 6th path's experiments that has gone terribly bad
That guy created the ninja world and the jutsus they use (for example the sealing jutsu), so i assume he had experimented a lot and not just magically pulled out all those jutsu out of his ass. And of course when somebody is experimenting there are some accidents.

Originally Posted by james0246

He did read at least one of the Uchiha tablets, so who's to say what he knows or doesn't know.

He had only a sharingan, so he couldn't read the most important parts. On the other hand he is gone crazy lately and with that he lost his old smart self, the one that thinks ahead and plans for the future, it seems currently he has been reduced to a nearly mindless killing machine. I do not expect him betraying Tobi before he fights against Naruto.