[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 3 Banquet of the golden witch

[Sterling01]

Or just to add to the possibilities Maria could be a child conceived from rape

[vandakiara]

that would explain why rosa doesn't really like her... because it reminds her of the rape...

*reading too much 'bitter virgin'*

but it makes sense that way doesn't it? rosa tells everyone maria's father ran off or something to hide the fact she had been raped cuz she feels embarassed. still she decides to have the child but there are times when she remembers the inicident and starts hitting maria... I think that when she does that, she's probably thinking about the anger she feels towards Maria's father...

[ClockWorkAngel]

Rosa is a bad mother, it's not that she hates Maria, but there's alot of personality flaws in her.

She was the youngest of Kinzo's children. She was always belittled and to this day she had very little authority not to mention that she doesn't seem to be doing the Ushiromiya name any justice (You could not compare her business with those of the other siblings).

Maria could become a vent to all her hardships, not to mention that in her she sees the similar anguish she had suffered, belittled and lonely.

And not having a husband doesn't help either.

[Rias]

Also the fact that Maria has Savant Syndrome doesn't help their relationship at all.

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by Rias

Also the fact that Maria has Savant Syndrome doesn't help their relationship at all.

Let's hope Maria turns out to be a prodigious savant

[chronotrig]

Also the fact that Maria has Savant Syndrome doesn't help their relationship at all.

Spoiler for rosa:

And the fact that Maria loves the person Rosa killed more than she loves Rosa...

[Sterling01]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Spoiler for rosa:

And the fact that Maria loves the person Rosa killed more than she loves Rosa...

Actually considering Ep 2's epilogue I'm not sure if that's the case

[Nadeor]

Spoiler for Off-topic on what you guys are discussing:

So I came to this thought about how to 'kill' the golden witch, like it was mentioned in the tips of EP1, that Beatrice taunts whoever can think of a way to 'kill' her

I'd say that it goes like this:

Beatrice = The Golden Witch = Lived for 1000+ years = use SeirenGoroshi !!
(*Seirengoroshi = One Thousand Years of Pain/Death*!)

So yeah, go ahead Battler, what'ya waiting for? =v=

[orange541]

Originally Posted by vandakiara

that would explain why rosa doesn't really like her... because it reminds her of the rape...

*reading too much 'bitter virgin'*

but it makes sense that way doesn't it? rosa tells everyone maria's father ran off or something to hide the fact she had been raped cuz she feels embarassed. still she decides to have the child but there are times when she remembers the inicident and starts hitting maria... I think that when she does that, she's probably thinking about the anger she feels towards Maria's father...

She does love Maria, deeply.

Everyone can tell that from EP2, and EP3 also

She is just an inexperienced mother with little patience.

[Klashikari]

That is something quite relative.
Considering she is always "trying" to love Maria, I'm quite unsure about that.

Furthermore, if you add the fact she is rather feeling guilty as a "mother", instead of truely liking Maria as a girl, it isn't exactly helping the matter at all.
She might have consideration mixed with her inexperience and short temper, but that isn't exactly prove she "loves" Maria, let alone deeply.

[theacefrehley]

More about Rosa;

In the last of episode 1;

「……戦人くんだって気付いてるんじゃないかい。
…真里亞ちゃんの本当の父親はずいぶん昔に蒸発してるんだ。
…叔母さんはそれを、海外出張とか言って誤魔化しているけど、ね。」

「…………右代宮家では、楼座さんたちに関わる話はタブーとされているところがあります。」

「叔母さんは再婚だって考えたと思うよ。
……でも、真里亞ちゃんの存在が枷になって、非常に難しかったんじゃないかと思うんだ。
…………だって叔母さんは時折、…ものすごく感情的に真里亞ちゃんに当たっていたから。」



So, the guy disappeared long ago and Rosa said to Maria he went on a 'business trip', and since they are talking about 'second marriage', it means Rosa was married with him.

[Rias]

Originally Posted by theacefrehley

More about Rosa;

In the last of episode 1;

「……戦人くんだって気付いてるんじゃないかい。
…真里亞ちゃんの本当の父親はずいぶん昔に蒸発してるんだ。
…叔母さんはそれを、海外出張とか言って誤魔化しているけど、ね。」

「…………右代宮家では、楼座さんたちに関わる話はタブーとされているところがあります。」

「叔母さんは再婚だって考えたと思うよ。
……でも、真里亞ちゃんの存在が枷になって、非常に難しかったんじゃないかと思うんだ。
…………だって叔母さんは時折、…ものすごく感情的に真里亞ちゃんに当たっていたから。」



So, the guy disappeared long ago and Rosa said to Maria he went on a 'business trip', and since they are talking about 'second marriage', it means Rosa was married with him.

They can still be two seperate person. Maria's father who was "vapourized", and someone whom she married before and seperated.

[chronotrig]

Spoiler for theory:

Okay, this is just a crazy thought, but has any character ever seen anything supernatural until right before they die?

We know that supernatural stuff happens after people die. The biggest hint is the first tea party, the first time in Umineko when we see something supernatural, and it's happening to people who are obviously already dead.

What if all of the supernatural scenes in ep2 and ep3 happened to people after they died? Off the top of my head, I can't think of anyone who has seen something supernatural, and then been seen alive by someone else, except for Rosa in the first part of ep2 and the people who survived seeing zombie Kanon.

In other words, how we see these people die and the actual murders have nothing to do with each other. In Battler-land, you can die as often as you want.

That way, we not only have a real murder mystery that isn't full of supernatural stuff, but it also means that those scenes aren't completely pointless. Those people might have actually experienced them in something like an afterlife, which we saw way back in Minagoroshi hen.

[Rias]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Spoiler for theory:

Okay, this is just a crazy thought, but has any character ever seen anything supernatural until right before they die?

We know that supernatural stuff happens after people die. The biggest hint is the first tea party, the first time in Umineko when we see something supernatural, and it's happening to people who are obviously already dead.

What if all of the supernatural scenes in ep2 and ep3 happened to people after they died? Off the top of my head, I can't think of anyone who has seen something supernatural, and then been seen alive by someone else, except for Rosa in the first part of ep2 and the people who survived seeing zombie Kanon.

In other words, how we see these people die and the actual murders have nothing to do with each other. In Battler-land, you can die as often as you want.

That way, we not only have a real murder mystery that isn't full of supernatural stuff, but it also means that those scenes aren't completely pointless. Those people might have actually experienced them in something like an afterlife, which we saw way back in Minagoroshi hen.

Rosa in ep2...where Beatrice fixed the Halloween candy.
Shannon in ep2...where Beatrice appears and disappears in midair.
Shannon and Kanon in ep2...where Beatice gives them both the butterfly mark.
Ginzo and Kanon in ep2...Kanon can see Beatrice but Ginzo doesn't.

[chronotrig]

Spoiler for more:

But all of those could easily be tricks. And because we don't really know Kanon's and Shannon's past and especially their upbringing(they could have been raised to be crazy by crazy Kinzo), I'm not sure they even count.

That leaves just when Rosa and/or Maria watch Beatrice's first appearance in ep2 and ep3. That's one trick per game, and at the very beginning, to set the stage and get the characters thinking that magic exists. Also, the bits of magic used in those two scenes are identical to each other and the one Waru-kyrie used in Beatrice's first flashback, but different from other magic used in the game(fixing rather than breaking, glowing gold object replaces the original).

It's a little shaky, but maybe it's better than assuming that the magic scenes didn't happen at all, or saying that someone somehow acted out those elaborate sword-fighting scenes for some reason. And it would mean that the answer for everything isn't 'hallucinations' again...

[Rias]

Spoiler:

Anything can be easily be tricks; that's what the anti-fantasy side claims. Candy can be a trick, the seal on the letter can be a trick, the pentagrams can be tricks too.

Besides, there's no need to go for the "hallucination" explanation. It's as what Battler said in ep3: "I don't see the aftermath of the magical battle".

[k//eternal]

That IS a lot fewer tricks to have to deal with, though. Might be a good line of thinking there.

[Nadeor]

Who's up for some Umineko real-live action logicals?
I got this from a chinese forum: ACGOL
Credits to pan120678 for the setup and question

It's like solving a question and fighting against Beatrice
Through the question, you may request for recital in red
I've tried, and yet not so much occured to me
So I've decided to turn to you guys for help
The author of this question did not give out the answers yet, and probably will later
So you guys have a chance as well
I'll re-post the recital request of you guys' to the original post in chinese after translation
So what'ya say? Up for it?
================================================== =========
The setup is as follows:

Characters: Jessica, Kanon and Battler

-Jessica was found dead in a room(Doesn't matter which room)
-In the room there were also Kanon and Battler
-Jessica's death seems likely to be the result of her chest cut open
-Kanon holds a blood-dripping cleaver in his hand

Now for what the guys over there had requested for recital

Here's what's been accepted to be announced in red:

Spoiler for Accepted for red recital:

-The Red Words are all absolutely true(just like in game)
-The Room is a chamber
-Battler is not the murderer nor the Accomplice
-Kanon and Battler are still alive before the murder had happened
-Kanon and Battler are still alive after the murder had happened
-Kanon and Battler are still alive as we are solving this mystery
-The blood on Kanon's Cleaver is Jessica's
-The hole on Jessica's chest was cut open by a cleaver.
-The one assaulted Jessica was neither Kanon Nor Battler
-Upon knowing Jessica's dead, Battler feels sad
-Upon knowing Jessica's dead, Kanon feels sad
-When the chamber had formed, Battler and was in there
(Note the 'and' there, I'm not sure why it's there, but it's in there in the original post, could be a hint or could be a word game)

-Jessica was killed because a cleaver had cut open her chest
-the Kanon in the room is the real Kanon himself
-There are no places such as trap doors or anywhere to hide in the room
-This murder was a planned murder
-Jessica is not in love with either Battler or Kanon.
-The only one's who are in the room are; Jessica (Dead), Kanon (Alive), and Battler (Alive)
-The windows and the door are locked
-Once the windows and the door are locked there are ABSOLUTELY no way to open it from outside
-Once the windows and the door are locked no traps or anything similar can be activated or used
-The murderer killed the victim in conscious
-The culprit killed the victim in conscious
-If there are any others who had entered the room, one of the three will have noticed
-While this whole thing happened, Battler's mental condition remains Normal
-While this whole thing happened, Kanon's mental condition remains Normal
(That means no hallucinations or Hinamizawa syndromes those kinds of stuff)
-The Culprit is among the known characters
-Those which I did not recital in red, doesn't have to be unreal
-Jessica was not killed accidentally
-The true murderer meant to kill Jessica
-Jessica was killed because of the wound on her chest, not because of some other hidden reasons.
-'Known Characters' meant Jessica, Kanon and Battler
-Once Jessica was wounded she was killed immediately, there is ABSOLUTELY no time to leave any pre-death message or hints to the others.
-The definition of 'Murderer' is the one who had killed Jessica with a cleaver
-If one had listened to the 'commands' of the murderer/culprit and had done it, no matter one's self is willing or not, he/she/it/whatsover had became an Accomplice
-When the murderer is commiting the murder, the murderer is in rage.
-The murder weapon Cleaver is undere Kanon's watch at all time

Now for the one's which the author refuses to recital in red:

Spoiler for Refused:

-Jessica is killed by someone else
-Jessica knows someone is about to kill her
-Battler had witnessed the event of Jessica been assaulted and killed
-Kanon had witnessed the event of Jessica been assaulted and killed
-Jessica had commited suicide
-Kanon is the one who had assaulted Jessica
-Jessica herself had no will to be killed or to kill herself
-Jessica tried to resist prior to her death
-The chamber was formed prior to the event
-The chamber was formed post to the event
-There is only one murderer
-Someone else had planned a conspiracy besides the one which belongs in the event
-None of the 3 will notice if someone had entered the room
-At least one of the 3 had witnessed the whole process of the murder
-None of the 3 had witnessed the whole process of the murder
-The Murderer exists on the island, in those who we known already and not yet have known
-Define: Murderer and Accomplice
-Define: Chamber
-Battler is not the murderer, killer, culprit or any form of a participant, he had to maximum witnessed the event
-Kanon attacked Jessica
-Kanon killed Jessica (Whoever asked these 2 is a retard)
-Prior to the event, among Jessica and the Murderer/Culprit, no forms of misunderstanding had ever occured
-When Jessica was dead, she knows and knows for sure who had killed her
-(Hint from the author, this one doesn't belong in the refused recital part:

"Why don't I recite any request related to whether Jessica knows who killed her or not?")

-More than one cleaver exists in the room
-There are other murder weapons exists besides the cleaver which we had already known
-Jessica's direct death (The wound on her chest) is resulted by "Kanon's Cleaver"
-Jessica's mental state is not normal when she was killed
-Jessica was sleeping when she was killed
-Jessica was not conscious when she was killed

That's all for now, good luck on trying'to solve it ^_^

[Elvin]

The murderer... IS YOU!!! *points at Nadeor*
I say it was suicide.
Although the true "murderer" of Jessica was the person who made the question in the first place, pan120678. Hannin wa... omae da!

[Kets]

Hmm, is it expicitly said that that particuilar cleaver was the one that stabbed Jessica?