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View Poll Results: Fate/Zero - Episode 11 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 87 | 50.88% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 54 | 31.58% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 14 | 8.19% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 7 | 4.09% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 3 | 1.75% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 3 | 1.75% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 1 | 0.58% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 2 | 1.17% | |
Voters: 171. You may not vote on this poll |
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2011-12-13, 02:11 | Link #241 | ||
Shadow of Effilisi
Join Date: Oct 2011
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I think the main point of Rider's speech is that he and his people had played their part and did what they could. So while he may grief for the outcome, he does not regret what he did. Quote:
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2011-12-13, 02:57 | Link #242 | |
Counter Force
Join Date: Nov 2007
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But why Rider can use it, even though he is not even a magus? That's because his soul and vision is so strong and dazzling, that his followers also take it as their own. They see what their King see, dream what their King dream. The shape of their souls become of their King's. The image becomes so vivid that Alexander can paint his image in his soul on reality because his servants also paint it at the same time. Quote of Alexander's explanation from the novel: Spoiler for Ionian Hetairoi:
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2011-12-13, 03:10 | Link #243 | |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Last edited by Iron Maw; 2011-12-13 at 04:16. |
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2011-12-13, 05:15 | Link #245 | |
Counter Force
Join Date: Nov 2007
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I don't know, why people always say that "Saber's way of kingship will make a country strong that continue after her" when her way of kingship led her country to ruin, ridden with civil war and her own countrymen killing each others. Sure, her way of governance is definitely not wrong, but she just takes it too extreme. She can be a protector of people by being a king, but she can't be a king and a martyr at the same time. They are completely different things. A king can't be alone. A king needs support from his followers, while his followers need inspiration and vision from their king. Saber can't give the latter, thus she lack the former (at least from half of her country).
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2011-12-13, 07:29 | Link #246 |
Kingslayer
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That was beautiful.
A very cliche' battle of morals, but written and delivered excellently. Never before have I seen a character that we've been shown to respect and admire as much as Rider take a viewpoint that is usually associated with a villain - to then further expand on the argument to the point where I fully agree with him. Saber got owned, hard. I'm starting to enjoy seeing Saber's naive and smug ideals get dragged through the dirt, and finally I see Rider as more than an ignorant brute. Now I can truly worship his GAR. When I had someone describe this episode to me, I was puzzled to hear that Archer would associate with these two in a casual manner, but after seeing it myself it does make sense, and having him there as well really added a lot more weight to the debate of Kingship, giving us a full spectrum from white to black ruling. We also learned that in a case of leadership, "Gray" will more likely agree with "Black" - makes sense! Looking forward to the next episode.
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2011-12-13, 07:35 | Link #247 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Last edited by Iron Maw; 2011-12-13 at 07:47. |
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2011-12-13, 08:16 | Link #249 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
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In my opinion three types of kinship was presented:
A king who lived as a saint, a king who lived as a man and a king who lived as an existence that trascends mankind.. Saber wanted to follow a path of righteousness but not many can reach happiness following that path, since is so unnatural to normal people, thats why her country fell apart. Theres a limit on how much people can feed on ideals. Rider wanted to live to their fullest, so that when he died he didnt have any regrets. Thats obvious that everyone wants to live to the fullest so thats why he earned an undying loyalty since his followers also made his wish their own. His early death caused his empire to crumble quickly but none can deny his feats. That desire to live to the fullest was manifested on his "conquer" Archer (ill try to not spoil about his identity for those who dont know it yet) lived as a tyrant but was such a brilliant and powerful existence so detached from humans, that people venerated him despite his whimsical nature. Saber was also a brilliant one but she was human and at the same time she didnt act like one, something that caused people to be wary of her, since she couldnt understand the hearts of her people |
2011-12-13, 08:28 | Link #250 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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His identity was disclosed in episode 3 by Tokiomi? It's not a spoiler...
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2011-12-13, 09:03 | Link #251 |
Ava courtesy of patchy
Join Date: Jan 2009
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How ironic is it that although Rider's noble phantasm is the materialization of his bond with his generals, the end of the real Alexander's dream was caused by mutiny from said general/friends. Not to mention that although he said he lead his people by giving them dreams, the real Alexander died from (allegedly) being poisoned by his own countryman.
Well, at least his countryman didn't start a civil war before he died so I guess his leadership and conquest mentality is indeed "better" than Arthur's in a way. |
2011-12-13, 09:30 | Link #252 | |||
You're Hot, Cupcake
Join Date: Aug 2008
Age: 42
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I still consider the Roman Empire to be the best legacy within that era because it had more longevity, greater annexation, longer-reaching influence, engineering marvels that were lost in the Dark Ages that took nearly a millenia to find again and a cultural significance that is still globally recognised today. Were any of its specific leaders better than Alexander? Perhaps not, but despite the infighting and bloodshed, the kingdom prospered for far longer. For an empire that started with Julius Caesar and lasted all the way to the Byzantine Empire losing in the final fall of Constantinople to the Ottoman Empite in 1453, that's a better legacy than Alexander's. No big disrespect to the guy but he made some key mistakes in the way he lived. Phillip ensured Alexander would be well equipped to be a leader since he was ten. Then after Phillip was assassinated, Alexander was ready to take over the reins of kingship. If Alexander had learned from what his father Phillip did, maybe Alexander would have left someone behind ready to take on the reins. But after taking Persia, he overdid it by going for India and having his army revolt, not to mention trying to merge too many Persian influences into his court. And that is a consequence of his belief of the king being superior to all and that everyone should follow his suggestions. Grandeur is great for a while but in the aftermath, it isn't what it's cracked up to be. Only took two years after his death for his empire to split. The Roman Empire is still the true mark of old world success for me. Quote:
As for Rider - I think there's two sides to that. Alexander had been tutored and bred to rule as he did. He lived for the moment and was very impulsive. Conquest and greed were crucial parts of him. He believed the king should be superior. So of course Saber's approach offends him. But the fact he went to the point to declare Saber unfit to be called a king was going too far. Alexander called himself the 'King of Kings' after conquering Persia and challenged Saber calling herself the 'King of Knights.' As for wanting to 'correct' Saber, that is a character flaw within Rider/Alexander. He was convinced his way was always the right way. (Queue Rider's grandiose speech at the start of Episode 5) And that is a fatal flaw to have. Look, overall as a person, I consider Rider superior to Archer, don't get me wrong there. But in terms of how they consider Saber, I think Archer wins that one. His contempt and disrespect for all of life is obvious. But I honestly believe Archer thinks Saber is an opponent that is a worthy challenge and a rare example of defiance and elusiveness in his otherwise boring, perfect existence whereas Rider thinks Saber was unfit to be king and has never really considered Saber as a legitimate challenger. For Rider to say right off the bat to Saber the first time they met 'Fight for me!' and then 'Yeah, wanted to see your castle, drink and figure out who's the worthy winner by kingship rants' - he seems rather sure of himself and that he will always win. Rider's manly nature is hilarious and admirable in some ways - and I love watching the guy - but all in all, he is rather full of himself and sure he will win the Grail War by default. And I'm sure it will cost him in the long run. Archer may be arrogant and cruel, but the guy makes plans via Kotomine and determining who are legitimate threats for him. Rider was the active one in that episode but Archer probably gained the most by keeping his cards close to his chest, getting to hear Saber and Rider detail their ideals in detail - as well as seeing Rider's Noble Phantasm. Most heroes usually disguise their Noble Phantasm to help them win but Rider is so sure of himself he produly proclaimed how his works. Archer gained the most from this episode and has plenty in the works to give himself multiple options. Ultimately, the episode was meant to show there is no one truly good way to rule a country or kingdom. Saber, Rider and Archer all had good points to their approaches but all had glaring flaws to them as well, which is what will ultimately determine their fates in this Grail War. No kingdom or empire lasts forever. However the legacy you leave behind can. And on a final note, I think Triple H would like to have a word with Rider and settle one-on-one who really deserves to be called the 'King of Kings'.
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Last edited by Last Sinner; 2011-12-13 at 09:52. |
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2011-12-13, 10:59 | Link #253 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
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No heirs?
Looks like everyone's forgetting about poor Alexander IV. It's understandable though. His entire life was mostly spent as a political pawn until one of the diadochi decided he'd be better off without the boy as a threat to his rule and had him killed. |
2011-12-13, 11:11 | Link #254 |
You're Hot, Cupcake
Join Date: Aug 2008
Age: 42
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Well, Alexander did have a son - but it wasn't born before Alexander died. Therein lied the problem. The people in power used the opportunity to put Alexander's half-brother in charge and take him out. For a child to be a viable heir in the immediate future, it needs to be of an age considered old enough to take the role or be advised/groomed for it.
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2011-12-13, 11:29 | Link #255 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Houston
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I think the thing is that you act like winning the Holy Grail War should be the overwhelming priority for the Servants. For most of them, it really isn't, and especially not for Rider - otherwise, he would have gone along with Waver's plan of letting Lancer and Saber fight. Remember his lines in Episode 4, "To win, but not destroy, to conquer, but not humiliate, those are the ideals of a king." And that's what he'll do. |
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2011-12-13, 11:50 | Link #256 |
Underweight Food Hoarder
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The only problem Alexander has for Saber is pride. She has no pride in her history of leading her country. She regrets her actions and wishes a qualified king to take her place. Where both Gilgamesh and Alexander think highly of themselves as accomplished Kings.
Nobody want's a king who always thinks of himself as a failure. |
2011-12-13, 13:17 | Link #257 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
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So he was viable, although it's pretty obvious by how quickly Perdiccas assumed control as regent that neither of the two kings were ever intended as anything more than figureheads. Arrhidaios had a mental disability, and Alex IV was an infant; neither were in any position to assert control over the successor generals. And Alex IV did eventually become the sole king once Arrhidaios was taken out, though he was still to young to do anything about it. And that didn't last long either, as Cassander came sweeping back into Macedon, held Alexander prisoner for a few years, then had him killed when it looked like the boy would actually become a threat to his power (and honestly, his death was probably appreciated by the other generals as well, who could now feel safe to assert their independent authority without the pretense of ruling in the boy king's name). |
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2011-12-13, 13:21 | Link #258 | |
Banned
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By the way, I also read some comparisons between Arthur and Alexander here... should I remind everyone that one is a historical figure and his kingdom did exist in reality, while the other just a character of legend without any substantiated archaeological evidence to even hint to a real world equivalent... so comparing the too is somewhat invalid |
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2011-12-13, 13:29 | Link #259 |
Shadow of Effilisi
Join Date: Oct 2011
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@Last Sinner
Why are you comparing Macedonia and Roman Empire? The former preceded the latter by 300 years. Hellenistic culture had long taken root in Syria and Egypt as Ptolemic Egypt and Seleucid Persia lasted hundreds of years. When Roman Empire took over, it absorbed Hellenistic culture into its own. In this way Alexander's conquest shaped the Roman culture, which was in turn spread across the world by the Romans. You are just admiring the tall building while neglecting its foundation. And you got Archer completely wrong. He sees Saber as a pretty thing to behold, but shows no little respect for her as a king. He repeatedly calls her a clown because he finds her ways amusing. As for Rider, I don't see him thinking that he will win by default in any way. He is confident but never lowers his guard, as shown in his brief encounter with Assassins in Caster's hideout. The anime does not explain it, but he is forced to use his strongest NP against the Assassins because he has no other way to protect Waver from so many Assassins. |
2011-12-13, 14:12 | Link #260 | ||
The Dark Knight
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: From the deepest abyss in the world, where you think?
Age: 38
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This is why Octavius who would become the first Emperor of Rome easily took control of Caesar's armies as Julius had named him as his heir in his will. Ghenghis Khan realized the same thing and named his third son as his heir before he himself was killed on his campaigns. Quote:
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