2013-03-17, 02:24 | Link #12862 | |
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2013-03-17, 12:40 | Link #12863 | |||||
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This entire argument is largely based on interpretations, and your statements addressing this all-encompassing dependency that's only been occasionally mentioned are just as "substanceless" as you percieve mine to be. Quote:
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2013-03-17, 13:34 | Link #12865 |
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Join Date: Oct 2009
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This new volume better have Tsurubami Fukurou and the girls on the cover. Iihiko should appear on the cover of the 21th volume, because is the last of the arc.
Coincidence or not, as if Nisio carefully collects the chapters, volume 20 ends in chapter 176, so volume 21 will probably end in chapter 185. |
2013-03-17, 13:40 | Link #12866 | |
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I mean, don't get me wrong, but I feel as though people attribute alot of Kumagawa's character and actions and motives to her, when I think that's disservice to what I think he was doing. For instance, Kumagawa didn't advice Zenkichi to confess to Medaka because he knew Zen would reflect and do the exact opposite, free Medaka, so he himself would have a better shot. I don't think so. Kumagawa was merely helping someone who he considers family. He knew that Zen would need his advice when the time was right, not because Kuma himself still wanted a shot at Medaka, but because all he had left, with the failure of the Naked Apron Alliance, was to watch over Zen - as he himself said. While some people see that as a manipulation, so he can have "the love of his life" at all costs, I just see that as him backing up his friend in a time of need and reflection, he purposefuly gave Zen the wrong advice so that when the time came, Zen could make the right choice with all his options in mind. Sorry, I just don't view Kumagawa as this Medaka nut whose actively trying to get in her pants anymore.
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2013-03-17, 14:12 | Link #12867 | |
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2013-03-17, 15:03 | Link #12868 | ||||
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Age: 35
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Anyway, let me spell it out to you: a coherent explanation for Medaka's emotions in that scene involves: 1) a positive example of something Zenkichi displayed, and 2) an explanation of why Medaka's character should've cared. Physical attraction, as irrelevant as it was to the scene or meaningful character development in general, cannot hope to be applied as a notable factor in the long-term establishment of Medaka's feelings for Zenkichi. I'll also spell out the causal link for you explicitly. Medaka's principle character weakness, her driving motivation, is her desire not to be alone. When Zenkichi took away her purpose, he stripped away the mechanism Medaka had built up to deal with that. However, at the same time Zenkichi demonstrated his unfailing concern/dedication to Medaka's own well-being, i.e. his devotion to her. Out of gratitude/relief for that devotion, which would protect Medaka from her fundamental fear (loneliness) despite having just lost her all-important independent mechanism for fighting against it, all of Medaka's other emotions in that scene arose. This is the complete causal link. This is the direct cohesive explanation. All necessary factors are considered, as relevant and portrayed in that scene to Medaka's characterization. Explain to me how any alternative aspect of Medaka's core character (i.e. her loneliness? her ability? her love of battle? her perfect understanding? The overflowing love or rigid discipline she inherited from her parents? etc. Any established characteristic of Medaka at all.) might lead to an alternative interpretation. Please, attempt any non-subjective ("IMO"), non-superficial ("she was physically attracted to him!") explanation at all. Quote:
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For the record, victory is something which you take. Kumagawa's victory would be fundamentally different from Medaka x Zenkichi in terms of emotional dependency. Last edited by Sol Falling; 2013-03-17 at 15:26. |
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2013-03-17, 15:20 | Link #12869 | |
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Age: 35
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As far as Kumagawa considering Zen a 'bro' or 'family', however, I really have to wonder how delusional people can be. When is there any evidence of Kumagawa holding any particularly friendly feelings for Zenkichi? And where would such feelings come from, in terms of Kumagawa's motivations as a character? The characters in Medaka Box are not such a blank slate or so mysterious that you can simply project any feelings that you want onto them. |
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2013-03-17, 19:25 | Link #12871 | |||||||
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You initially asked me this: Quote:
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2013-03-17, 19:45 | Link #12872 | ||
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It's the fact that we find you to perceive that both of those loves are the de-facto forwarding reason for the two characters(well, Zenkichi's just abandoned that), which is why Zigs said what he said. When you say that Kumagawa's ultimate victory is and always will be Medaka's heart - that's what you are telling us. And we think it's hilariously wrong. Mostly because Chapter 185 already proved this wrong, by finally having Kumagawa win. Quote:
Is this guy serious, or is he just trolling?
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2013-03-17, 21:22 | Link #12874 | ||
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I'm still waiting for an answer to this:
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2013-03-17, 22:15 | Link #12875 | |||
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In regards to the new question you've raised, despite it's obvious divergence from your initial point, I've mentioned the clear lack of depth in their relationship numerous times, and the necessity for maturity. I understand that she's emotionally dependent on him, but I don't view it as an overwhelmingly detrimental force to be reckoned with that has clouded all of their interactions, nor has it appeared that she only admires him due to his presence in her life since before the 140th chapter. She doesn't really use that as the crutch she once did. Regardless, you only every asked for a singular element of her emotions that played a part in her outwardly physical affection towards Zen that was disconnected from her dependency. That, of course, is what I gave you. Quote:
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Last edited by zigantz22; 2013-03-17 at 22:25. |
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2013-03-18, 00:27 | Link #12876 | |||
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Do you now not see what an ass you have been making of yourself? "Boohoo, I can't handle the suggestion that Medaka and Zenkichi won't end up together. I'm going to throw up an argument based on my instinctual disagreement with such a theory, despite having zero logical backing for my objection. All I have to offer are subjective 'observations' and a groundless confidence that Nishio won't upset my expectations." What a joke, try actually thinking next time before getting on your self-righteous soapbox. Quote:
Kumagawa's character will not change until he actually achieves his ultimate victory. Until his character finishes changing, Kumagawa will not have finished his story. Your (again) naive and superficial interpretations of what Nishio's supposed intentions are is the only basis you have for calling Kumagawa's story over. When in fact, any cursory analytical overview of Kumagawa's character development would clearly tell you that his story is not finished. This is something even you have already understood instinctively. What I am telling you is that Nishio's adherence to proper literary writing is what is going to win out, not your preconceptions of what Nishio supposedly 'meant' in the story. |
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2013-03-18, 01:49 | Link #12877 | ||
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Honestly, I don’t even particularly love their relationship, especially Medaka’s occasionally detached part in it, but I’ve realized the inevitability of their relationship for quite some time. Not to mention, I stated that their relationship lacks depth, not that it’s altogether devoid of it. The dependency, in and of itself, is an element of depth, as well as Zenkichi’s previously held and thankfully dismissed adherence to his blind reliance to live for Medaka alone. Following their maturation, I expect they’ll have partially, if not completely, shed the flawed aspects of their love for one another, whilst realizing the positive aspects of said love. For one, it appears to be increasingly indicated throughout the story that Medaka has legitimately understood Zenkichi’s feelings and has reciprocated them out of a desire to be with him, which doesn’t, in this case, equate to mere dependency, but also to an appreciation of him as an individual. The only reason I ever mentioned her attraction to Zenkichi is because you desired to see any moment within the entire story that was even minutely disconnected from dependence within the emotions she was feeling at the time, and I offered you a clear example, and, predictably, you dismissed and nearly overlooked it altogether and told me to try again, despite it’s legitimacy. I don’t see how you can claim that physical attraction is bred from dependency, when thirteen or so years of considerable dependency had passed prior to that confession, and I hardly saw a glimpse of attraction on her part. Of course, that alone wouldn’t necessarily be able to sustain a relationship long-term, but, as long as she’s capable of that separate emotion, it seems pretty evident that she’s capable of others as well. Ones that are removed from the childish dependency that still resided within her. However, you seem dogmatically intent on manipulating every single gesture of affection into an unavoidable display of an emotion that is solely derived from her dependence on Zenkichi‘s presence in her life. Quote:
I simply don’t understand why, as a supposed Kumagawa fan, you’d be so welcoming to a development that diminishes his character’s worth so dreadfully. I mean, in what way would you actually want Kumagawa‘s character to change, aside from winning more frequently? Would you honestly want that change to be represented by him earning Medaka’s love and softening up into this romantically inclined individual. What a way to ruin his character, since, of course, according to you, his development into a romantic partner for Medaka is the only way to achieve "proper literary writing", and yet you honestly don't see any sort of a biased delusion creeping into that statement? If not, there's truly nothing I can say, since your perception of Kumagawa's growth is so laughably misguided. |
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2013-03-18, 19:42 | Link #12879 | ||
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Age: 35
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So it's 'naive' to attempt any objective analysis now? I have always been open to any alternative interpretations (in fact, spent the majority of this conversation asking for them), so long as there is any remotely arguable evidence to support it. If you've insisted all this time that things are 'open to interpretation', then why have you been unable to produce any objectively justified example of one?
In fact, your current position seems to imply that you've given up entirely on contesting any of my claims on objective literary grounds, leaving your only objection an assertion that claims based on them will be mistaken. You yourself acknowledge the lack of non-obstructive depth to Zenkichi and Medaka's relationship. You yourself acknowledge the travesty of framing Kumagawa's recent victory as the end of his character arc. By any measure, you (and anybody else who would attempt a logical argument) have already acknowledged my position that these elements of the story constitute shoddy writing. And yet, you have an issue with my statement that leaving them as they are would be a compromise of narrative integrity? Having already gone on record along with Wolfenstein in calling Kumagawa's 'resolution' last chapter a narrative travesty, what a load of hypocrisy. The only difference in our positions thus far is that you actually seem to prefer to believe in the persistence of these narrative failures, as opposed to considering the actual possibility that Nishio will correct them credibly. You insist that these narrative failures must be or become a constant in the story, as opposed to developing in a way which would lead to a coherent outcome. The absurdity and superficiality of having wasted time arguing such a nonsensical position is something I can only laugh at. I will admit, I have a personal investment in my belief that Nishio is a good writer, and that Medaka Box will turn out to be a decent, coherent story. Now can you, having spent this much time arguing with me, claim to have accomplished anything aside from proving a personal investment in your belief that Medaka Box will be an incoherent story? And for what reason? Fanboyism of Zen? What a joke. Quote:
As for the first claim, you're going to have to explain to me how Medaka's confession in ch. 140 demonstrates new attraction distinct or any greater than her previous confession in chapter 35. In both cases the confession was superficially based on Zenkichi being 'cool'. While in both cases Medaka was still firmly set in emotional dependency. In fact, what these examples do show is that Medaka's 'confessions' for Zen or expressions of romantic or 'physical' attraction occurs in moments when Zenkichi appears particularly dependable. Your second claim followed from the first. Do you have any issues with it being discredited? Quote:
Medaka's existence as a personality who generally exists far beyond the need of help from others presents an opportunity for Kumagawa to bring out his true personality. Namely, his challenging, ambitious, offense-oriented, desire-to-drag-down-others tendency. In fact, Medaka's existence as close to the only person who could withstand Kumagawa's degenerating personality, gives him the freedom to unleash as much as he wants of it. Simultaneously, according to Medaka's present weakness of being too deep down dependent on others, it is precisely Kumagawa's constant ability to challenge or drag down others which would encourage her to develop and strengthen her individuality. Understand: Kumagawa's final change in development was never meant to be about becoming 'softer' or more selfless. The actual endpoint of his character arc is about him regaining the selfishness and ambition of his original personality, the part which thirsted for his own sake for victory. Kumagawa's ultimate victory will be about finally fully overcoming his despair towards being able to achieve personal victory, a despair which was only superficially replaced and buried by the 'good guy' role of helping others he gained after his loss to Medaka. Accordingly, from this current point, Nishio going as far as to put Kumagawa and Medaka together would be equal to brilliant writing. I have never said this out of any shipping fanboyism (I like Kumagawa and Medaka individually; there has never been any personal need to see them put together). The conclusion that Kumagawa x Medaka should and has a reasonable chance to happen has always been the result of a simple, logical analysis of their characters. Last edited by Sol Falling; 2013-03-18 at 20:10. |
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action, comedy, harem, nishio, romance, shounen, student council |
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