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Old 2013-03-03, 17:49   Link #12561
DawnEmperor
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[QUOTE=Kurusu-Shirudo;4576346]More than him I hate the series as a whole.

"Ichigo, your mother is a quincy!!!111"

I kind of get annoyed by him since he seems to mainly go between moping(I couldn't protect!) or blood knight, where it gets hard for me to really sympathize with him; the former because he really doesn't address the people he's trying to protect, or how they feel. I know he's the Jerk with the Heart of Gold but sometimes I just find him too prideful(alright enough about Bleach).


Quote:
It's supposed to be viewed this way by the reader. Nisio purposely made Medaka the kind of main she's to make a contrast with her and Zenkichi, nothing else.
Nothing else what? They're not just there to contrast each other, even if that's why they're co-protagonists
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Old 2013-03-03, 18:13   Link #12562
Knighto
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My head hurts from reading that messed up english.

And I liked this and every arc, just in case you want to know.
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Old 2013-03-03, 18:55   Link #12563
Wolfenstein
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While making Medaka terrible does seem to have been the author's intention, and that definitely serves as an explanation, it will not always serve as an excuse or justification, as a user in another forum once posted.

While making her dislikeable does serve to make the characters around her, mainly Heat with whom she currently clashes with most as seen in their ways of dealing with the Ultimate Destroyer, feel more dynamic and interesting and relatable, it's unknown if Nishio knows the amount of disdain that this has bred for Medaka in the fanbase. No-one wants to follow a story about a character who is unrelatable, boring, who can do anything through virtue of her overpowering, Mary Sue personality(her skill).

And I'll admit, while even the next chapter does preview with "What is Zenkichi up to now", meaning obviously Nishio intends, yet again, to contrast recent events, It wasn't worth it for some readers from the start because they had to follow an unlikeable protagonist, but for some people, it was.

For me? Hm. I kinda identify with the "not worth it" group, because it is pretty grating to read sometimes.

Not that it's a bad gimmick, one has to recognize it's usefulness and effect, but I think the story would be fine without it.
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Old 2013-03-03, 21:14   Link #12564
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
While making her dislikeable does serve to make the characters around her, mainly Heat with whom she currently clashes with most as seen in their ways of dealing with the Ultimate Destroyer, feel more dynamic and interesting and relatable, it's unknown if Nishio knows the amount of disdain that this has bred for Medaka in the fanbase. No-one wants to follow a story about a character who is unrelatable, boring, who can do anything through virtue of her overpowering, Mary Sue personality(her skill).
Why should Nisio care what a vocal minority of fans think about Medaka again? He has his own ideas and plans for Medaka's character and he's gone through with them well, in my opinion at least. He can't go around changing the manga every time some fans complain, or he'd drive himself into destitution.
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Old 2013-03-03, 22:26   Link #12565
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Oh, don't misunderstand.

Nishio knows exactly what his intentions were for the Medaka character, he knows the kind of beast he has created, it's just not clear if he understands the depth of the contempt he wanted to create. It's pretty clear through the manga that he intended for Medaka to be terrible/disliked, just look at the most recent poll. He uses her as a vortex for shounen tropes and people's frustrations with them as a method of contrast to her peers, her side characters.
"Side-characters" is a term I use loosely, though, because they're really the meat and fat of the manga, as far as content goes.
And through use of that contrast, Nishio makes his side-characters look and seem more dynamic and interesting. Yes, it's sort of cheap, but it's a trick that works to great effect.

The question he has to ask himself, though, is if it was worth it, or still is. For some, it never was, but for others, the trick still plays to great use. It's Nishio's "Status Quo", if you will. Current events clearly are either building up to another contrast event, or the actual elimination of that plot device altoguether. Namely, killing off Medaka. I, for one, would enjoy seeing what a story like that would play out. Maybe it's a chance for Nishio to put even more effort into his characters, good as they already are, now that he might not have that almighty vortex of shounen Mary-Sueness to aid him.

And yes, I'm mostly parafrasing people off other forums(mostly NF), I'm not a plagiarist! But I really have to give credit where credit is due when someone catches on to something.
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Old 2013-03-03, 22:36   Link #12566
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Oh, don't misunderstand.

Nishio knows exactly what his intentions were for the Medaka character, he knows the kind of beast he has created, it's just not clear if he understands the depth of the contempt he wanted to create. It's pretty clear through the manga that he intended for Medaka to be terrible/disliked, just look at the most recent poll. He uses her as a vortex for shounen tropes and people's frustrations with them as a method of contrast to her peers, her side characters.
"Side-characters" is a term I use loosely, though, because they're really the meat and fat of the manga, as far as content goes.
And through use of that contrast, Nishio makes his side-characters look and seem more dynamic and interesting. Yes, it's sort of cheap, but it's a trick that works to great effect.

The question he has to ask himself, though, is if it was worth it, or still is. For some, it never was, but for others, the trick still plays to great use. It's Nishio's "Status Quo", if you will. Current events clearly are either building up to another contrast event, or the actual elimination of that plot device altoguether. Namely, killing off Medaka. I, for one, would enjoy seeing what a story like that would play out. Maybe it's a chance for Nishio to put even more effort into his characters, good as they already are, now that he might not have that almighty vortex of shounen Mary-Sueness to aid him.

And yes, I'm mostly parafrasing people off other forums(mostly NF), I'm not a plagiarist! But I really have to give credit where credit is due when someone catches on to something.
You're free to your opinion, but I don't think Medaka was created for people to hate her, I think she was created for people to question her, to question why exactly she is the way that she is, and how she affects the people around her with that distorted way of life she had.

I seriously doubt the only thing he intended people to hold Medaka in the sort of seething contempt you have of her, certainly we aren't intended to always agree with her, but we're supposed to think why we don't agree with her, not to blindly hate her.
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Old 2013-03-03, 23:00   Link #12567
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Wolfenstein, I honestly think that likability is an iffy factor to judge upon. I know you feel that the way the series plays with tropes doesn't change the fact that certain characters may be presented as unlikable, but it's a matter of cogs in the overall story. I guess in the end we do have to separate our character preferences and plot preferences with the execution of the story and the way it makes us think.
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Old 2013-03-03, 23:08   Link #12568
taichi-kun
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Very disappointed with medaka,she didn't say her last good bye to zen and was flirting with kumagawa.What a Bitch,she should remain dead haha

I'm getting tired of this manga,the moon stuff was just stupid.

Sorry medaka fans,but that's my opinion.
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Old 2013-03-04, 07:34   Link #12569
Wolfenstein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
Wolfenstein, I honestly think that likability is an iffy factor to judge upon. I know you feel that the way the series plays with tropes doesn't change the fact that certain characters may be presented as unlikable, but it's a matter of cogs in the overall story. I guess in the end we do have to separate our character preferences and plot preferences with the execution of the story and the way it makes us think.
I don't know, bro. Obviously, there will always be people who enjoy Medaka's character for her traits...

But...I've never seen such a collected opinion on the fact that a character was meant to be terrible in a single fanbase.

I mean, she's definitely not supposed to be the character you cheer for. Let's type in "Medaka Box character popularity poll" on google and see what the first non-jump result yields us:

46 - Misogi(understandable)
27 - Heat(understandable)
6 - Medaka(understandable?)
5 - Others

http://forums.mangafox.me/threads/27...opularity-poll

That's a...pretty glaring disparity there. Even worst counting the fact the poor gal already lost top-three position in Japan. Maybe this was Nishio's plan. I mean, certainly could be given how his use of the character dosen't actually change much at all from the beguinning of the manga where she explicitly and undoubtedly was made the Mother of all Sue's, to later be deconstructed in the Election year(though admittedly, with very little results shown).
Maybe he's rectifying a mistake or just concluding his plan now. After all, this ending was incredibly out-of-the-blue and rushed.

What I mean is: to most, the side-characters are what makes and breaks the manga. People read Medaka Box for Misogi and Heat(the majority at least), for Naze, for Shiranui, for Tsurubami, for Ajimu, for Emukae, for Kei, and most importantly, for Nienami. I'm sure some people read the Manga singlulary for it's seeming protagonist, though, not saying those don't exist.
You kinda see what I'm getting at, don't you? She's, at the very least, not the kind of protagonist designed to be more relatable/likeable than her supporting cast.

To me, It's more like Medaka's cog, her usefulness, is that she elevates the characters near her. I can recognize and respect that she does, indeed, have a use to the story, but it's a sort of gimmicky form of story-telling that I think was never really nescessary.

Sure, it's just a hypothesis. but you must admit: it's pretty darn interesting one, when you think about it.
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Old 2013-03-04, 08:35   Link #12570
silvercover
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using MF heh...

anyways, to tldr you're post, you mean that is he maybe going a bit too far with making medaka dislikable?
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Old 2013-03-04, 08:39   Link #12571
Wolfenstein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silvercover View Post
using MF heh...

anyways, to tldr you're post, you mean that is he maybe going a bit too far with making medaka dislikable?
I just typed "Medaka Box character popularity poll" on google and used the first result. What's wrong with that place?

And somewhat. I understand why he does it, but I don't think it's nescessary. Anymore. At the very least, I'm sure we all wonder what the manga's story would be like without her.
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Old 2013-03-04, 08:43   Link #12572
ccie20012
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Medaka (as is portrayed) is very heterogeneous throughout the manga.
There is an arc (call them romcom arc's) - where she's cute and nice girl.
For example the top of this: Jet Black Bride Arc.

IMHO:
A character ruined for the sake of shounen trolling.
Or trolling romcom fans (if you look on the other side).
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Old 2013-03-04, 09:04   Link #12573
silvercover
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
I just typed "Medaka Box character popularity poll" on google and used the first result. What's wrong with that place?
nothing really. just that im from MF and the medaka box forums is where I can be found other than the arena section.

but its also that that one is pretty old. and that from looking at the other poll in there, majority of the people want medakaXzenkichi.
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Old 2013-03-04, 09:13   Link #12574
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Well, you catch the drift.

People don't really enjoy the manga's protagonist alot. Mostly, they do enjoy Misogi. Secondly, I'd guess would either be Ajimu or Zenkichi, or Naze. Then you'd get to the other interesting characters, like Bami, Emukae, Shiranui, Kei, among others.

I don't think it's a coincidence that I first liked Zen, then I liked Misogi. I think that's a desired effect.
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Old 2013-03-04, 09:32   Link #12575
ccie20012
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In my opinion the root of "problem" in mix of genres.
In terms of a romantic comedy, this arc is superfluous.
In general, history was completed on previous arc.
Promise to marry each other - is usually the final of stories.
Further continue nowhere - only afterwords ... It has been many years ... happy family and a lot of children.

Although one possible option: promise ... all good ... internal problems ... break (drama) ... reunion
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Old 2013-03-04, 09:41   Link #12576
Wolfenstein
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To be honest...I don't get the vibe that Medaka actually loved Heat at any point. Which begs the question as to why she would lead him on like that, but at this point, I doubt it's supposed to be consistant.
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Old 2013-03-04, 09:56   Link #12577
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
I don't know, bro. Obviously, there will always be people who enjoy Medaka's character for her traits...

But...I've never seen such a collected opinion on the fact that a character was meant to be terrible in a single fanbase.

I mean, she's definitely not supposed to be the character you cheer for. Let's type in "Medaka Box character popularity poll" on google and see what the first non-jump result yields us:

46 - Misogi(understandable)
27 - Heat(understandable)
6 - Medaka(understandable?)
5 - Others

http://forums.mangafox.me/threads/27...opularity-poll

That's a...pretty glaring disparity there. Even worst counting the fact the poor gal already lost top-three position in Japan. Maybe this was Nishio's plan. I mean, certainly could be given how his use of the character dosen't actually change much at all from the beguinning of the manga where she explicitly and undoubtedly was made the Mother of all Sue's, to later be deconstructed in the Election year(though admittedly, with very little results shown).
Maybe he's rectifying a mistake or just concluding his plan now. After all, this ending was incredibly out-of-the-blue and rushed.

What I mean is: to most, the side-characters are what makes and breaks the manga. People read Medaka Box for Misogi and Heat(the majority at least), for Naze, for Shiranui, for Tsurubami, for Ajimu, for Emukae, for Kei, and most importantly, for Nienami. I'm sure some people read the Manga singlulary for it's seeming protagonist, though, not saying those don't exist.
You kinda see what I'm getting at, don't you? She's, at the very least, not the kind of protagonist designed to be more relatable/likeable than her supporting cast.

To me, It's more like Medaka's cog, her usefulness, is that she elevates the characters near her. I can recognize and respect that she does, indeed, have a use to the story, but it's a sort of gimmicky form of story-telling that I think was never really nescessary.

Sure, it's just a hypothesis. but you must admit: it's pretty darn interesting one, when you think about it.
What you see as a "collective opinion" is nothing but the result of confirmation bias and the insular circle-jerking developed by a simultaneously large and ignorant audience.

It's one thing to simply personally not like Medaka, but to claim that no one is meant to like Medaka because she was 'intentionally' written to be unlikeable is an impressively delusional act of mistaking opinion for fact.

Rather than taking "popularity polls" and the western fanbase as your point of reference, any analysis of Nishio's 'intentions' would be much better served by an overview of Nishio's other works themselves.

Now, Medaka herself is a more flawed and human character than many of these other characters. However, her essential role and archetype, that of an overpoweringly strong/invincible female character, is one Nishio has used many times over. You talk about "shounen tropes" and say that Medaka is meant to be hated - but then, let me ask, all of these other characters: Jun Aikawa, Yasuri Nanami, Kiss-shot Heart-under-blade, Mizukara Risuka -- to speak only of characters from Nishio's english-translated works, all of whom are just as overpowered and overpowering as Medaka -- were they meant to be hated as well? No?

The only difference between Medaka Box and those other series is that in the other stories there don't exist such bland and underwhelming male protagonists as Zenkichi for shounen-kiddies to self-insert into, leading to blind-resentment being built up once they realize that Medaka Box will not pander to their fantasies (the standard shounen setup of having a guy somehow be the strongest and most powerful character who beats up on bad guys, and then has girls tripping over themselves to chase after him).

The plain fact is just that Medaka Box in specific, and Nishio's works in general are simply conceptually above the level that the average shounen-kiddie/Shounen Jump reader can appreciate. That is not to say that Medaka Box is without faults, because there are plenty of places where Nishio's dumbing down of Medaka Box to attempt to match shounen standards has made things awkward. However, at the end of the day all of the seething resentment in the west towards Medaka herself ultimately comes down to a inability of swathes of the Medaka Box 'fandom' to grasp the fundamental nature of this series and its characters.

Medaka is meant to be an actual character whose principle story is about becoming (seen as) human. Her core conflict is about how her overwhelming ability isolates her from other humans, and how (like Iihiko) the principle desire of people in this sort of situation is simply to connect with others and achieve communication. Medaka has an entirely meaningful character arc on her own, more important than either Zenkichi's or Kumagawa's matter of factly, and her conflict in fact represents the core subject of development in the story. It's precisely because of this that the developments of the latest chapter, despite being ridiculously rushed from several perspectives, could in fact potentially signify the ending of the series.

(This is also the reason for Medaka's historically poor performance in Jump in Japan. From the start, Medaka Box has mostly been held up by a core base of fans of Nishio's works in general, who were responsible for the volume sales and participated in discussions via forums like 2ch but did not participate in any great degree in Jump's popularity/ranking system proper. Although Kumagawa did add some mainstream appeal to the series by finally bringing in an actually interesting principle male character, Medaka nevertheless has never truly caught the main shounen audience as far as Jump is concerned. Kumagawa's introduction also brought a bump in the volume sales at the time representing increased interest from Nishio's core audience, but the stagnation/decline of the volume sales (corresponding to the lack of growth for Medaka Box amongst even Nishio's core audience) is the reason the manga is in some level of actual trouble right now.)
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Old 2013-03-04, 10:15   Link #12578
Wolfenstein
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
What you see as a "collective opinion" is nothing but the result of confirmation bias and the insular circle-jerking developed by a simultaneously large and ignorant audience.
Have you ever thought that that might be the effect that the author wanted to cause by making the protagonist so unlikeable?
After all, it strenghtens the readers to everyone around the protagonist. Sounds pretty effective.

We can talk all day about Medaka's character, but the truth of the matter is, she kinda has that effect on the fanbase.

I, for one, think it was totally intentional. Though, it is just a hypothesis.
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Old 2013-03-04, 10:29   Link #12579
Sol Falling
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Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Have you ever thought that that might be the effect that the author wanted to cause by making the protagonist so unlikeable?
After all, it strenghtens the readers to everyone around the protagonist. Sounds pretty effective.

We can talk all day about Medaka's character, but the truth of the matter is, she kinda has that effect on the fanbase.

I, for one, think it was totally intentional. Though, it is just a hypothesis.
As I said, the 'fanbase' you are talking about is limited to the shounen-kiddies who primarily only read Jump manga. On the western side, in terms of exposure to Nishio even people who have more breadth in their tastes have probably only been exposed to the *Monogatari series. Fundamentally most of these people would be lacking the background/perspective necessary to understand the actual intentions of Medaka Box's narrative.

I don't disagree that the way Nishio situated Medaka and Zenkichi within the story might have been an intentional troll, though. Not to say that he wanted for Medaka to be disliked, but that he intended to make the story frustrating for anybody who expected Zenkichi to act/have a position like any traditional shounen protagonist. Despite the fact that Ajimu offered and Zenkichi explicitly declined the chance at such a position, this is seemingly still what many Zenkichi fans are looking for, which is the root of why they hate Medaka.
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Old 2013-03-04, 10:39   Link #12580
ccie20012
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@Sol Falling
Kiss-shot Heart-under-blade and Medaka is very different. Medaka (especially in the last arc) is the archetype/stereotype fool in love MC. The power here is not to blame. Kiss-shot looks very feminine/kawai/moe (behaves like a normal girl). Therefore she beloved by fans.

Not necessarily be both protagonist and a fool in love. It's only Nishino choice.
As example very different character: Hakaze Kusaribe from Zetsuen no Tempest.
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