(L+CR) Overlord Season 3

[Ultragunner]

^ well yeah. Perhaps I worded my post a bit incorrectly . Ainz would usually abstain from causing unnecessary bloodshed, he is more likely to prefer to stay out of trouble if not possible.

IMO, as much as we love him, Ainz is actually not that bright *cough*ordinary Japanese salesman*cough* , he doesn't really think most things through and often just goes with the flow. The plan was probably cooked up by Demi, and Ainz was like "Ok...coo"
Plus he is now undead and unable to feel normal sympathy for others, so it was easy for him to accept using people as mere tools

[Randrak42]

They are trespassers who willingly chose to risk their lives in exchange for a possible reward. He asked them the reason and they clearly showed him that it was really only for the money. They are merely looters that underestimated the dungeon and ended up dying. That is all.

It's in how he treats the Elven Slave Girls that will really define Ainz' moral, since they were indeed trespassers, but did so against their will.

I'm not saying Ainz is pure evil or pure good... because it's way more complicated than that. He is neither.

[TheForsaken]

Originally Posted by Ultragunner

"innocent" is a bit much tho. Sure, most of the workers are probably decent human beings (except that guy with the elves, fck'hm! ).
From Ainz' perspective, these people are just a greedy bunch who have come to pillage his home. There is no real malice in it (as in they are not trying to hurt Nazarick), but it is what it is.

There are already a lot of innocent people murdered by Ainz, and I don't even count the ones killed by Demi.
The lizardmen are the most obvious examples.
Or just two episodes ago, Ainz unleashed a wave of monsters upon Anri's village. While it is not shown, I highly doubt that no defenders died during the attack.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Randrak42

They are trespassers who willingly chose to risk their lives in exchange for a possible reward. He asked them the reason and they clearly showed him that it was really only for the money. They are merely looters that underestimated the dungeon and ended up dying. That is all.

It's in how he treats the Elven Slave Girls that will really define Ainz' moral, since they were indeed trespassers, but did so against their will.

I'm not saying Ainz is pure evil or pure good... because it's way more complicated than that. He is neither.

While I don't remember how it went down in the novel, the way everything is built up it looks like Ainz actually lured them ion to kill them.
i.E imho it looks like he is actually the mysterious contractor who ordered the raid to begin with.

I'm also stunned at how the maids are seriously disappointed in the human groups, when one of them had to face several Liches while the Lizardmen barely managed to defeat one.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

While I don't remember how it went down in the novel, the way everything is built up it looks like Ainz actually lured them ion to kill them.
i.E imho it looks like he is actually the mysterious contractor who ordered the raid to begin with.

I'm also stunned at how the maids are seriously disappointed in the human groups, when one of them had to face several Liches while the Lizardmen barely managed to defeat one.

They didn't face the Liches. They ran away. Plus the one that fought against the Lizardmen was specially made by Ainz with his various undead enhancing skills, not automatically generated by the Tomb.

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

What they're doing is possibly legal, and that's not why they die.

They die because they (unknowingly) disrespected Ainz Ooal Gown. Which isn't illegal according to the laws of the Kingdom.

Ainz didn't judge them by the Kingdom's law, he used Nazarick's law, since they invaded his domain. In ancient times, breaking in an emperor's palace would ensure the death of your entire clan/family. Ainz was quite merciful here for punishing only them.

I'm pretty sure stealing that gold is still a death sentence. Heck, the party that didn't enter the Tomb proper still got ambushed.

I am sure Ainz wouldn't have chased them if they had just took the money and left

Originally Posted by TheForsaken

Yeah, and if a girl wears a revealing outfit in the street, it's her own fault for getting raped, right?
Please stop victim blaming FFS!

It's a false comparison. A good one is a girl tries to seduce and rob men, then eventually gets punished for her crimes.

WTF?
How can you even twist facts like that?
THIS IS NOT SELF DEFENSE!
If you yourself lure people to go into your house where you are waiting with deadly force with full intention of killing them, then there's nothing that can justify your action.

Even if I put a gold bar at my front door, it doesn't mean other can break into my home to take it. Castle law is a thing, you see.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Even "Touch Me"?

An insect heteromorph will have the urge to consume human flesh, as shown with Entoma and the Duke of Terror. Touch Me will eventually give in to his primal desire.

He can't blame players to be hostile against him if he kills their friends. Especially since he himself was pretty angry at Clementine for killing his adventurers acquaintances.

I argue about his goal. He only cares for his guildmates, not all players.

[eiyuuou]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I've no idea what you're getting at.

My point is that the motivations for being part of this enterprise are the same for Adventurers and Workers, and that the legal issues don't stem from worrying about what monsters think when people come into their lair to kill them and take their stuff.

Could Momon use his status to get out of trouble if it came out he helped and noble from the Empire (with which the Kingdom is at war) mount an expedition in the Kingdom to plunder some newly discovered tomb? Yes, probably. But that's not the issue at present.

Spoiler:

you ignored what transpired in previous episodes and those foreshadow Nazarick's future actions.
You disregard who is Momon and what he represents for the adventurers.
It meant nothing to you that he went to the empire, when his homebase is the kingdom, or him talking to a wizard there.
Last but not least, what he said to the workers about motives and him finally replying "I asked a truly worthless question" has no significance to you.

you have no idea what Ainz is doing, so I'll stop here.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

While I don't remember how it went down in the novel, the way everything is built up it looks like Ainz actually lured them ion to kill them.
i.E imho it looks like he is actually the mysterious contractor who ordered the raid to begin with.

I'm also stunned at how the maids are seriously disappointed in the human groups, when one of them had to face several Liches while the Lizardmen barely managed to defeat one.

Green leaf lost 8 to 5 (green leaf) to the Old Guarders. Firstly, they didn't defeat any of the old guarders and in the lizardman's arc, there were thousands of them, suggesting they are cannon fodder.
there were also skeletons in silver-ish armor and gold-ish armor, suggesting there are higher tier skeletons, in lizardman's arc.

Spoiler:

The elder lich the lizardmen fought and defeated is a named lich made by Ainz.
It was capable of summoning undead and casting fireball and lightning.

The group of workers were chased by a group of lich mob with crap accuracy in fireballs.
In a narrow corridor, using lightning would kill them easily.

I think you'll agree there is a difference between the two.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by eiyuuou

Spoiler:

you ignored what transpired in previous episodes and those foreshadow Nazarick's future actions.
You disregard who is Momon and what he represents for the adventurers.
It meant nothing to you that he went to the empire, when his homebase is the kingdom, or him talking to a wizard there.
Last but not least, what he said to the workers about motives and him finally replying "I asked a truly worthless question" has no significance to you.

you have no idea what Ainz is doing, so I'll stop here.

I've read the novel. I know exactly what Ainz is doing. What I don't know is what you are trying to say.

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

Ainz didn't judge them by the Kingdom's law, he used Nazarick's law, since they invaded his domain. In ancient times, breaking in an emperor's palace would ensure the death of your entire clan/family. Ainz was quite merciful here for punishing only them.

In ancient time, you couldn't inadvertently break into an emperor's palace. Its presence would be indicated in all kinds of ways. Also, the emperor wouldn't disguise himself, escort you to the palace and encourage you to break into it.

I am sure Ainz wouldn't have chased them if they had just took the money and left

I'm sure of the opposite...

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

In ancient time, you couldn't inadvertently break into an emperor's palace. Its presence would be indicated in all kinds of ways. Also, the emperor wouldn't disguise himself, escort you to the palace and encourage you to break into it.

They already knew they were breaking into someone's private home when seeing its clean entrance.
And Ainz didn't encourage them, he tried to warn them when asking about their motivation.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

They already knew they were breaking into someone's private home when seeing its clean entrance.

Nope, still weird building possibly full of mindless undead.

And Ainz didn't encourage them, he tried to warn them when asking about their motivation.

That wasn't a warning by any reasonable standard, or even Ainz' intention.

[Magewolf]

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

They already knew they were breaking into someone's private home when seeing its clean entrance.
And Ainz didn't encourage them, he tried to warn them when asking about their motivation.

Ainz lured them there for the express purpose of killing them. Why is that so hard for some people to see? The whole money question was pointless since almost any adventurer, including Ainz, if being honest would have answered the same way.

As for the whole private home thing, it is a tomb complex possibly infested with undead. Undead naturally produce more undead in this world and the more undead you have in an area the stronger undead produced are. So cleaning out areas of undead is a public good even if you are doing it for money.

So Ainz is killing and torturing people doing a public service because he is an evil, weak willed tool. The evil part is kind of being forced on him but the weak willed tool part comes naturally.

[wissenschaft]

Originally Posted by Magewolf

Ainz lured them there for the express purpose of killing them. Why is that so hard for some people to see? The whole money question was pointless since almost any adventurer, including Ainz, if being honest would have answered the same way.

As for the whole private home thing, it is a tomb complex possibly infested with undead. Undead naturally produce more undead in this world and the more undead you have in an area the stronger undead produced are. So cleaning out areas of undead is a public good even if you are doing it for money.

So Ainz is killing and torturing people doing a public service because he is an evil, weak willed tool. The evil part is kind of being forced on him but the weak willed tool part comes naturally.

I wouldn't go so far as to call him a weakwilled tool. Hes hardly lacking in willpower. He just not a good guy. The show is named Overlord, we should already know this.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by wissenschaft

I wouldn't go so far as to call him a weakwilled tool. Hes hardly lacking in willpower. He just not a good guy. The show is named Overlord, we should already know this.

He's engaging in a bloody campaign to conquer the world, because he can't bear to tell his subordinates to stop a project they only started based on a random comment he can't even remember. that's the definition of weak-willed.

[Randrak42]

Originally Posted by Endscape

He's engaging in a bloody campaign to conquer the world, because he can't bear to tell his subordinates to stop a project they only started based on a random comment he can't even remember. that's the definition of weak-willed.

Actually no, when he heard that they were planning to conquer the world, he was surprised, BUT also right after that... he thought that it was a good idea, because it would make it easier to make the name of Ainz Ool Gown well known around the world so his guild members may see it.

[wissenschaft]

Originally Posted by Randrak42

Actually no, when he heard that they were planning to conquer the world, he was surprised, BUT also right after that... he thought that it was a good idea, because it would make it easier to make the name of Ainz Ool Gown well known around the world so his guild members may see it.

Yup, hes thought exactly this in the anime. Ainz doesn't care how many people are going to die in this world conquest if it means finding any guild members in this world.

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Nope, still weird building possibly full of mindless undead.

No mindless undead is capable of doing complex job like cleaning. It meant the place was occupied by intelligent beings.

That wasn't a warning by any reasonable standard, or even Ainz' intention.

As an adamantine adventurer, he didn't enter the tomb but waited outside and even asked that weird question. They should have felt something off about it. His intention was to tried to find out if there was anyone who was forced to join and make sure only scummy robbers got killed. Innocents would have been spared, like those slave elves.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

No mindless undead is capable of doing complex job like cleaning. It meant the place was occupied by intelligent beings.

Like I said, weird building. Maybe it stays clean by magic. Or maybe you underestimate undead. (They've been shown to help with farming.)

As an adamantine adventurer, he didn't enter the tomb but waited outside and even asked that weird question. They should have felt something off about it. His intention was to tried to find out if there was anyone who was forced to join and make sure only scummy robbers got killed. Innocents would have been spared, like those slave elves.

You completely misinterpreted why the Adventurers stayed out of the Tomb. And Momon is an Adventurer, not a Worker. They were paid to stay behind and secure the campsite.

[Rasty]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Like I said, weird building. Maybe it stays clean by magic. Or maybe you underestimate undead. (They've been shown to help with farming.)

Only while getting controlled by the mages. And the workers even make a comment about the monster controlling the ruins being an idiot or blind for sending only the skeletons. So they clearly knew there was an intelligent being in possession of the ruins.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

You completely misinterpreted why the Adventurers stayed out of the Tomb. And Momon is an Adventurer, not a Worker. They were paid to stay behind and secure the campsite.

Yep, his staying outside was expected and not worrying thing, it's just division of labor.


It's funny how most people try to force our moral standards on the people of this novel. The humans see all the monsters as an evil that should be cleansed to the last one no matter how intelligent or similar to humans they are, or rather the more intelligent the greater threat thus more important to kill.

As for Ainz, he no longer is human and his mental state was also altered to one of the undead, so he feels no compassion for the human race. Just imagine swapping the roles monsters -> human, human -> speaking slugs. That's about his mental state. He might not want to torment them unnecessarily and might even take a bit of liking to some diligent slug eating leaves nearby, but in the end, they are just slugs, he doesn't seriously care.
In other words, him speaking about "liking them in the way you like cute small animals", as fake as the anime make it sound, are likely to be just the truth.

[Yan3242]

Ainz already said himself (in previous season) that he doesnt seem to feel any remorse or guilt when killing human or seeing his loyal servant slaughtering them, this could affect his viewing in general.

Also put it in worker perspective what they do is not exactly wrong, its no different than tomb raiding or exploring unamed cave and alike. I mean, if i see an empty broken house i would presume its abandon and probably no one inside so its not like iam breaking law for going inside.

We done this in real life too right? Pyramid? Old church, catacombs. We have been doing this sort of thing to historical building/monument and just outright saying "this belong to us now because we found it first"

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

An insect heteromorph will have the urge to consume human flesh, as shown with Entoma and the Duke of Terror. Touch Me will eventually give in to his primal desire.

From what I gathered Entoma doesn't have an urge to eat human flesh nor it is a necessity for her, that's just her favorite food. Touch Me would probably lose his empathy towards humans as Momonga did (though not completely), but I don't think he would lose his strong sense of righteousness. Momonga for instance still doesn't like the idea of killing innocent humans, not even if it is to reward his subordinates, Touch Me on comparison is a lot more concerned with moral issues. He would probably be merciless towards evil-doers, and feel no remorse whatsoever by taking their lives, he might even eat their flesh, but I don't think his food preference would affect his decision of whom to kill or not.

Moreover Sebastian (who was created by Touch Me) is arguably the least evil NPC of the whole bunch and he even goes his way to save a helpless girl without even thinking of what he could possibly gain from that, and that's a decidedly good action.

If Touch Me's creation does that, it's safe to assume that Touch Me himself would act that way too.

So going back to the current case. I wonder if Touch Me would really agree with Momonga's methods. Is it fair enough to kill the workers because they trespassed, or would he think, as I do, that they should have at least been given a direct warning before? Sure in the game of Yggdrasill that was the norm, but the players that went there knew exactly what they were going against.
Moreover this whole deal looks a lot like "picking on the weak" which is something that Touch Me really despised.