Macross Delta - Character Discussion - Mirage Farina Jenius

[Tenzen12]

I don't really understand to people who claim she has no character. I myself prefer characters who doesn't need to be given to audience on silver plate with heavy handed exposition.

"I don't understand someones character"/"don't like character" = "there is no character"

It's really stupid.

[Yu Ominae]

So what's this about Mirage that I'm hearing about as of the 16th episode?

[ippus]

Dragging the rest of this over here because I'm going to spend a good chunk of time off the Ep 20 topic

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

This is because her interaction with Hayate is so limited and his interest in her is nil compared to Freyja so if he chooses her, it'd be because his options with Freyja are doused (she dies and/or chooses singing over him). Otherwise, his decision will be because of bad writing (seriously, where is the romance even implied in their relationship like it is with Freyja?).

We're not undermining her character; a number of us on here wish to see her develop outside of simply being in love with Hayate. Her character arc is where, really? Even Ranka had one in Frontier where she confronted her past (even if brainwashed in the end). Point is: Mirage's character has things to overcome in her family; and she is doing nothing for overcoming living in her grandparents' shadows or become an ace pilot or even becoming a social person; she's always pulled along for the ride by Hayate (and Freyja), and besides questionably falling in love with Hayate (and recognizing his feelings for Freyja), she has done no real growth in herself. She can admit her faults all she wants, but if she does nothing to overcome them like Hayate and Freyja have overcome theirs (his issues with his dad: choosing to discover the truth; her fears of singing on a battlefield and being considered a traitor to her home world and Wright is behind the bombing on her home world: continue on regardless if only for the sake of ending this war so she can save her people (and others from Var) and sing happy songs like she originally wished to do with Walkure), all her character will be is underdeveloped. Until she develops beyond her "living in shadow" phase, she will forever be an underdeveloped character. Her role right now is in the love triangle and it's all she really has because we've gone beyond a point where she'll receive proper growth as an individual character.

And yes, you could say it's all "bad writing," no one minds because I believe we can all admit areas of Delta are full of "bad writing." I'm choosing to hang in here for the ride because I still have hope it'll all come together in the end. If not, at least I'll have watched it unlike disliking it (or an ending) for silly reasons.

To be fair, Ranka sorted her backstory out pretty late in the game too? Yet at the time people's frustrations wasn't so much oh, Ranka exists to like Alto but rather Ranka only ever thinks about Alto and it's destructive.

Also if you actually...rewatch the show, she interacts with Hayate pretty often (i had to go through Episode 2 just now cus...you know) it's just that a lot of the initial interactions was her getting kind of argumentative/snappy while the rest of the time she was stuck at neutral. By the time she moved on to pro-Hayate she was already a little bit late and given how much she is moping about it's pretty clearly intentional.

Cont. >>
There's actually a lot of changes Mirage goes through that- honestly is probably why a lot of people looking for a strong pilot girl lead was a bit disappointed about. Mirage actually starts the show talking about the battlefield a lot. It's not just about Hayate, but during the auditions she also wonders if the girls looking to become WALKURES understand they'll be in the midst of battle. To her, the fact that Hayate thought so lightly about things really irritated her but it had little to do with Hayate specifically but more the kind of order she was use to.

Even when Freyja moves into the restaurant house for the first time, Mirage lists out a buncha house rules and fully expects them to be followed. Mirage had an exceptionally unrelenting personality, but that actually changes a bit when Messer tells her she flies too by the book and less instinctually, making her far too easy to read. Since then she's been trying to figure out Hayate's "It" factor but grew insecure over it instead. She was also plagued by her family name and the disappointed voices over the fact she wasn't good enough. Eventually she declares she'd be Hayate's rival and gets promoted, but that isn't exactly working either. When the Delta Platoon goes to fight the Windermeres and as much as Hayate tries to cover Mirage to "fly as she wants" she tells him that's "Easier said than done", yet the moment she turned to save/cover for Hayate + Catch Freyja she's completely in her element. So some degree I think the instinct that motivates Mirage is actually that of protection seeing as she could fly so close to an explosion and still save Hayate and come out with her machine in full working order.

Since then Mirage had voiced often to herself (usually indirectly, using other people's problems as a platform) that she chose to be a pilot irregardless of her family name, that they weren't the reason she was flying. She also mentions to both Freyja and Hayate that Ragna changed her and that it made her feel like there was more she can do now. She's also notices on occasions that Freyja was what's causing Hayate to super power, and since saving Freyja she's actually had less angst about her ability to fly. I'm guessing it's likely because she thinks she's found Hayate's "It" Factor, but as she's begun to like Hayate by this point, finding out Freyja is why Hayate is able to fly so easily causes her a great deal of angst instead.

Which brings us out to Episode 20...
Mirage knowing better than either of them that Hayate needs Freyja to fly, and Freyja couldn't sing after ruining Hayate is an admittance that she knows how the relationship between the two works. For a character who started off the show with pressures to perform as a Jenius Elite pilot, I sort of see it as Mirage purposely choosing not to compete with either rivals and instead protect their ability/relationship because "this isn't the time" for her to squabble about such things. This is inevitably resulting in more heartache but ehhh 6 episodes (?) left to go.

Like her content IS there...I think it's just not being portrayed with enough impact or parts of it is just badly emphasized making the story difficult to take notice of if you're too preoccupied with how easily Freyja and Hayate hang out together when they're happy.

As for his interest with Mirage mmm...I have said on multiple occasions that I do think Hayate definitely likes Freyja more, especially at the beginning. I don't disagree with that. I think though to some degree Hayate is a really big dunce hat when it comes to girls liking him (I mean Freyja has so many emotional markers helping her that it's ridiculous that he hasn't figured her feelings out...yet apparently he hasn't) so it's actually quite possible that he simply hasn't thought about the possibility existing. There's also the issue of instinct...Hayate often acts upon instincts which was how he figured flying out in the first place- and out of everyone the only person he hugged was Mirage (I mean....Freyja sky dived for him but I don't think he hugged her either?) so like....ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh;;;

I have no eggs in the relationship race honestly. I like genuinely don't care who wins the triangle.

[magnuskn]

I care insofar as I don't want Mirage to end up as yet another Zessica. ^^

But compared to Frontier, where I was fire and flame for Sheryl (Sheryl ganbatte! ), this "romance triangle", as it is, has left me very feeling very tepid about everyone of the participants.

[Yu Ominae]

I really feel sorry for Mirage.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Yu Ominae

I really feel sorry for Mirage.

Outside of her losing in the triangle, I don't really believe her character is bad off; I mean, she herself admits how her role in Delta changed who she is in general (admission of Hayate helping her discover her love for flying, love for Freyja who is dying and wishing her friends' happiness, flying freely without thinking like she used to do). And, re-watching older episodes, who she is in the beginning of Delta is someone who didn't hold confidence in herself; now she's confident in herself enough to admit she's in love with someone who doesn't love her all for helping her friends find happiness together; and she knows who she really desires to be now, not living in her grandparents' shadows or an ace pilot, she's going to love flying because it's fun. And if there's nothing else in her character to like, it's that inner growth where she's learned how to be herself.

From a viewer's perspective, it's not as obvious, even re-watching Delta (in comparison to Frontier character arcs) but it's in there.

All I wish it'd be is a little more fulfilling (or satisfying) like with Sheryl or Ranka (depends on who you ask for Ranka) because their arcs were overall obvious on their roles and endgame. Mirage is... kind of between because her arc is described (by herself), her role plays out, but it's not how you'd imagine it'd go (expectation vs. deliverance here). Dropping her from the love triangle overall could help in this aspect. For instance, she could still admire Hayate and his flying style and eventually warm up to him as a friend; her love for him is not entirely necessary for her character, or so I feel (and this is from re-watching Delta twice now). I don't know; not all characters blossom when forced into love triangles like the Frontier trio did...

[Yu Ominae]

I just wished the show had a bit more focus on her and Hayate, which is unfortunate since I heard some stuff that Kawamori doesn't want to emphasize a lot on the traditional love triangle.

[playmaker2k]

Mirage had so much potential as a pilot and an overall character, but fell short due to her being brushed aside most of the series as a disgruntled triangle member.

She's more than that; she's a Jenius.

To be honest, I was half expecting her to excel and be a callback to Max, but the difference would be through hard work and grit since she wasn't a prodigy like him. They were almost there with her insecurities about trying to living up to the family name, but it kind of got brushed aside for other things. What a lost opportunity.

I feel Mirage could have headlined a Macross series with just her legendary heritage alone. Just imagine Mirage as the Main Character of the series with 2 male suitors; One is a Singer while the other is a fellow pilot. It would be like Macross Plus, but she's the lead pilot. Her Tsundere goodness would be in full display here.

That would not only be amazing, but we've never had a Main Female Pilot in the series. (Even if it's non-canon, this was the only good thing Macross II did right.)

[SleepingTerror]

Just give her something please, she literally got nothing by the end of the show. It kind of sucks how she got shafted both as a pilot and love interest. Love interest part is understandable but Hayate always took the spotlight whenever it came to flying.

movie movie movie

[BetoJR]

Well, to be honest, Hayate was "artificially" boosted. Mirage was all her, warts and all.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by playmaker2k

I feel Mirage could have headlined a Macross series with just her legendary heritage alone. Just imagine Mirage as the Main Character of the series with 2 male suitors; One is a Singer while the other is a fellow pilot. It would be like Macross Plus, but she's the lead pilot. Her Tsundere goodness would be in full display here.

We had this already: It's called Macross 7. (Basara/Mylene/Gamlin) It's 49 episodes, go check it out.

I really don't believe Kawamori envisioned Mirage headlining a Macross. I mean, he could give her an ace title (originally desired to); however, it's Freyja who technically, technically headlines Macross Delta.

Plus, if we're going to talk about which character should headline a Macross, I remember how Alto is the "lead" in Frontier and both girls outshine him in every form for the entire series, especially in every other media format aside from the light novel and video games (where it's kind of necessary for him to shine). Only difference is, Alto is given a solid character arc in the series and even as his two girlfriends (I'm being generous for the dude) outshine him, there's still a Point A to Point B for his character enough for you to feel a little satisfied with him.

Personally, I believe Delta had one too many characters for a 26 episode series. Obviously Kawamori really liked Durarara!! and wanted to give it a shot of a cast of 50+ characters for a 25 episode series LOL

[seiftis]

Mirage remains a forgettable side character to me. The series could even do well without her

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by seiftis

Mirage remains a forgettable side character to me. The series could even do well without her

Well she isn't as worse as Lucca

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Well she isn't as worse as Lucca

Luca had a nicer run in the movies, wherein his character development is not tied to his unrequited (from viewer perspective) love for Nanase. He served a broader purpose in the movies vs. TV series where his character basically did do very little aside from minor plot points where writers randomly remembered this dude is a computer nerd who invented a random dimensional bomb on Frontier (episode 21).

If you're going for bad characters or ones who had bad resolution for side characters, Nanase is a nicer choice. Because she's basically sidelined for a majority of the second half of the TV series and majorly so in the movies (of which she's more like a cameo of herself, she has two scenes in the movies, one of which has no dialogue).

Originally Posted by seiftis

Mirage remains a forgettable side character to me. The series could even do well without her

I genuinely believe she is beneficial in this series as a character because of her supporting role for Hayate and Freyja.

Outside of the love triangle, in terms of friendship, her role is basically about supporting our main two characters: befriending them (episode 4 and 14), protecting them (episode 13 and 22), scolding them (episode 20), encouraging them (episode 22), and enforcing their happiness (episode 25 and 26). It's a solid "friendship" role for Mirage. In fact, because it's a love triangle, it's detrimental to her character because she falls in love with Hayate and it's been a cripple on her character arc because it's a little harder to recognize areas where she developed as a character without reanalyzing her whole character from beginning to end.

In short, because it's so obviously endgame for Hayate and Freyja, dropping her from the love triangle in favor of a friendly supporting role could be beneficial to her character; because she'd focus less on her love for Hayate and more on her friendship with Freyja. There's a number of examples I could give here but one ippus brought up elsewhere comes to mind about Freyja's past or heritage never discussed in the series; a perfect opportunity for this is episode 23, wherein Mirage and Freyja choose discussing Hayate and a useless love triangle over maybe discussing "so, you're going home... let's talk about your home."

[SleepingTerror]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

I genuinely believe she is beneficial in this series as a character because of her supporting role for Hayate and Freyja.

That is literally the definition of a plot device. Hey, I like Freyja, but that in no way should be Mirage's only redeeming quality of importance to the plot.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by SleepingTerror

That is literally the definition of a plot device. Hey, I like Freyja, but that in no way should be Mirage's only redeeming quality of importance to the plot.

It's kind of the purpose of any character in a series, really.

For instance, despite their personalities, the Frontier trio were mainly plot devices themselves, all tied to the plot because of their connections to each other or the ones involved (i.e. Alto to Ranka who is a survivor of Galia 4; Sheryl to Grace who is her parental guardian/producer).

It's not an insult; characters benefit from their story; people benefit from their relationships. Ergo, Mirage benefits from her supporting role because of her friendship with Hayate and Freyja.

[SleepingTerror]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

It's kind of the purpose of any character in a series, really.

You mean the purpose of helping a ship sail? No, not really. Hayate has flying, Freyja has singing, Mirage has nothing, except for her lineage, but that isn't significant to the plot at all.

It's not an insult; characters benefit from their story; people benefit from their relationships. Ergo, Mirage benefits from her supporting role because of her friendship with Hayate and Freyja.

Of course she benefits from it, like I said, that's her only redeeming quality of significance to the plot. The only time she's relevant is whenever Hayate and Freyja need that one extra shove. That shouldn't be the case.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by SleepingTerror

You mean the purpose of helping a ship sail? No, not really.

You're removing all of her friendship for them from her character in favor of a ship sailing.

Seriously, your argument could equally go towards Ranka, who outside of the love triangle and plot device had no real character developments which fans could grasp, or what developments she did have people disliked a lot (people be salty for it even now).

However, Ranka is a big player in Frontier not because she's a plot device or a love interest for Alto but her friendship with both changing their lives. Is it a bad role? No; because she helped two characters achieve something like their love for each other and dreams by her presence in the story period. Does it benefit her? Yes; she grew as a person by watching her role models.

This also applies to Mirage; who grows because of her friendship with Hayate and Freyja; she develops by watching both aspire to do their best for their dreams and not their love for each other specifically (this only comes into effect once she falls for Hayate).

Mirage is beneficial to the story itself because she supports the two MC on the battlefield and as a friend. She is someone those two could come to for moral support in their dreams, a sort of mother hen if you will. And regardless of your personal opinion, it's not a bad role for a character like her. The fact Mirage is not a typical Jenius ace pilot helps mold her for a different role than her ancestors. The fact everyone wants her to have a role like her ancestors goes against her character.

Originally Posted by SleepingTerror

The only time she's relevant is whenever Hayate and Freyja need that one extra shove. That shouldn't be the case.

Again, is not necessarily a bad thing if Mirage develops from it. That's kind of the main argument of her character, really; fans all wish for her to develop. Everyone yelling "outside of the love triangle, she has nothing" is not true.

Delta focuses a little too much on a specific little trope called "The Power of Friendship" more than "Love Saves The Day." Hayate, Freyja, and Mirage are following in the footsteps of the beautiful friendship of Sheryl and Ranka (plus Alto, if you will) and following by example for Mikumo and Freyja of the instructor and student relationship (also held by Mirage and Hayate in the first half).

If you remove the love triangle dynamic from Delta, it's all about friendship for Chaos.

The fact you believe she should develop outside of this goes against how Delta is lined up. And is also kind of my number one complaint with Sheryl in the second half of Frontier; who goes from "I fight to survive" in the first half to discovering she's dying and blunders into developing an all-powerful emo scale of "I'm dying so it's all pointless" and also a big "I'm in love with Alto" fest comes of this, too. Didn't help her character one bit on individuality because Alto basically encouraged her to be herself again through "The Power of Love" as did Ranka via "The Power of Friendship" and... yeah, she didn't come back to "herself" because of herself, she had help; and it's kind of how Mirage goes, too.

[SleepingTerror]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

You're removing all of her friendship for them from her character in favor of a ship sailing.

I have no idea what you mean by this.

Seriously, your argument could equally go towards Ranka, who outside of the love triangle and plot device had no real character developments which fans could grasp, or what developments she did have people disliked a lot (people be salty for it even now).

I've stated before that Mirage is a lot like Ranka, glad to see you agree. Except Ranka got her time in the spotlight, and Mirage did not.

This also applies to Mirage; who grows because of her friendship with Hayate and Freyja; she develops by watching both aspire to do their best for their dreams and not their love for each other specifically (this only comes into effect once she falls for Hayate).

Did she actually grow? I couldn't tell.

The fact Mirage is not a typical Jenius ace pilot helps mold her for a different role than her ancestors. The fact everyone wants her to have a role like her ancestors goes against her character.

We got one mention of this in the anime, in the beginning, and that was it. GG.

Again, is not necessarily a bad thing if Mirage develops from it. That's kind of the main argument of her character, really; fans all wish for her to develop. Everyone yelling "outside of the love triangle, she has nothing" is not true.

It kind of is though. Again, what development? There's obviously more to her character but the writers were stingy and didn't give her the time of day to showcase it.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by SleepingTerror

I have no idea what you mean by this.

You said it's only for helping a ship sail, which is not valid.

Originally Posted by SleepingTerror

I've stated before that Mirage is a lot like Ranka, glad to see you agree. Except Ranka got her time in the spotlight, and Mirage did not.

Episodes 9, 13, 14, 16, 20, 23, and 25 for Mirage did not count for you? Mirage did have scenes or even episodes where she shined, and not all in the love triangle; because her involvement in the Messar case is a good example of her being a supporter first and foremost. Mirage did not shine like her ancestors or even prior love triangle girls but she did shine where it's important for the story and her character, obviously.

Originally Posted by SleepingTerror

Did she actually grow? I couldn't tell.

She said it herself in episode 14 and 26 respectively.

However, if you re-watch even episode 1 again, she is more reserved and less friendly towards newcomers and less confident in herself when she messes up. In episode 14, Mirage admitted she discovered something in herself had changed on Ragna (because of Hayate and Freyja even if she didn't notice it until episode 16). In episode 20, her character development hits a peak because she's confident enough in herself not only to scold Hayate and Freyja but also promise she'll support and protect them later on regardless of the cost to herself, which she does in episode 22.

Her developments are small; but I don't count her as a failure overall. She is misused in areas but I do believe she had development overall.

Originally Posted by SleepingTerror

We got one mention of this in the anime, in the beginning, and that was it. GG.

And...?

Everyone has clung to her Jenius name like it's some superb brand name on a car. Her Jenius name is only that: a name. It's in her blood to be a pilot, does not always necessarily guarantee she'll be an ace. After all, Alto is born into a Kabuki family in Frontier; his father condoned him for his "failures" on stage, which is half of the reason for their indifference towards each other later on.

Originally Posted by SleepingTerror

There's obviously more to her character but the writers were stingy and didn't give her the time of day to showcase it.

As I said, if she could be only a supporting character, remove love triangle dynamics, maybe you'd feel differently about this subject; after all, side characters require less screen time for development because they're not overall important for the plot. However, because she's an MC and is one of the main trio, your disappointment is higher. I do believe she had potential but I also felt this for the Mikumo is not human aspect of the series (which could have gone a little like Macross II in terms of discovering Mikumo is a clone earlier on and helping her discover "humanity" and friendship for longer than an episode (23) and force her to be captured in said episode, too).

Delta writers had it bad on character development; because even glancing at episodes, I sometimes realize how swift this story evolves from "momentary peace for character development" to "oops, remembered someone needs capturing right now!" and "oh yes, insert battle scenes where everyone vanishes off-screen!" I could chop this all up to Kawamori; however, in the context of how Delta is written, it's almost like it's more than one person, of which all of them had ideas and crammed them all into one big bang of a series which... doesn't always play out like intended...