2015-03-10, 21:58 | Link #34921 | ||||||||||||||||
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When Ikuko found Tohya, Tohya knew he had something he wanted to accomplish, something he had to do but couldn't remember what. Probably he wanted to take care of his sister somehow. If Tohya never met Ange he could never be sure his message reached her and she lived a happy life. Ergo theoretically Battler could never rest in peace. But well, I admit the scene was discussed for a long time and no one could find an agreement on how to see it and this is just my view. You can also see it just as Tohya building his happy fantasy and being happy with it. IMHO is less meaningful but that's just me. You can find it very meaningful. I guess here it's a matter of personal tastes. LOL, I'm waiting rather anxiously for the manga in order to see what it'll say. Quote:
Another side was likely consumed by what she went through, her hate for Kyrie and Rudolf and by the fear of being blamed. It's a toxic relation similar to the one between Rosa and Maria where Rosa would like to be a good mom... but ultimately she fails. Ange said that Eva would take out her anger on her, though it seems Eva's abuse was verbal and not physical... even if she also said when being beaten by Kasumi's men that: Quote:
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And yes, Ryukishi changed his plans through Umineko many times so some leftovers remains (he also corrected some mistakes in the PS3 version so there are things who're even mistakes and he was aware of them). Quote:
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So in Prime it didn't cause people to discuss over how Erika could totally be the culprit or whatever else was discussed in Ep 6. Quote:
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"Battler in the room" do not seem to be aware of what's going on with MetaBattler but Meta Battler is occasionally aware of his surrounding enough to reply to Erika. Now it can totally be that in a way MetaBattler is also technically trapped. He has a trick he can use but won't use it so he isn't allowed to get out even if he could. I think that "Battler in the room" is a symbolic and fantasy representation of the fact that Battler was stuck into a situation. But when "Battler in the room" is freed by Kanon MetaBattler still remains comatose (yet he's still at his own marriage and not in the room) and 'wakes up' only when Erika is defeated. "Battler in the room" isn't MetaBattler, he's just a representation for him, one that'll fit with the story. MetaBattler is on a layer that's over the one of "Battler in the room". "Battler in the room" is probably akin to a magic piece and in the early parts of the VN he is described as unaware of how he ended up in the room. The story already presented us with a MetaBattler who's with Beato, a PieceBattler who's on the gameboard and a fantasy Battler who fight Dlanor in Ep 5. PieceBattler and FantasyBattler in Ep 5 are moved by Lambda but I guess Battler could have moved them himself without becoming them. Same as in Ep 5 we've MetaBeato comatose, fantasyBeato supporting Natsuhi and Sayo going around killing and pinning the blame on Natsuhi. Quote:
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I thought you meant to say Battler had the bottle when he was found, which he actually didn't. But evidently I misunderstood you. Well, all the bottles were tossed in the sea... so it was possible for Ikuko to find it even if, as many underlined, there were too many convenient coincidences in Umineko. Quote:
I can't really remember that quote being discussed in the past (it might be there's tons of posts) so I can't really offer anything beyond my opinion. Maybe someone has a better theory? |
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2015-03-11, 05:17 | Link #34922 | |||||||||||||
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That is unless we say again that Ryukishi changed the story in the middle :S Quote:
its forced reasoning to say death can refer to a death somewhere in the future, cause that would make the game-boards unsolvable. again, ultimate explanation - he made a mistake XD (joking) Quote:
and I think this characterization doesnt fit well with some of those speculations. Quote:
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But him being an a*** to beato, him saying to Erika-one of the main goals of the game- he wants to go all out with her and then holding back (well he DID win in the end, but he took a huge risk according to the expected miracle, if wed like to follow the reasoning that he planned the logic error),and him asking genji about the logic error AFTER he finished the story "oh, a logic error? what is that? please tell me genji, i just used that in my giant master plan against erika, but please explain it again so I can fool mr. nobody that is watching us two talking in this room all alone". but most importantly, he would have even had to fake his THOUGHTS in the course of playing dawn, what would be the point of that???? well, we can of course say that what was stated later doesnt fit with what happened in episode 6, so its a mistake or judged from a story-line encompassing POV (since its Bern, this is my preferred interpretation) but imo there was never clearly stated that he planned it all from start to finish so Im not too hung up on that. (random thought: him showing he understood beatos heart is already accomplished when they have the love duel, and "understanding magic" imo doesnt refer to kanon/shannon tricks - those are TRICKS after all, but to the ability to "decorate" the truth and accept it as truth) EDIT: after my awesome crack-theory I just came up with while writing this post - "understanding magic" of course refers to his ability to create new worlds XD Quote:
Nope, there was never anything mentioned about a third layer with fantasy-figures, there are only pieces and meta-characters. its even said that in episode 5, beato is a piece. in this game she is is only natsuhis delusion (said so) thats why sayo still goes around killing everyone without beato being aware of the true culprit. it also explicitly states that the battler from game 5 is "piece battler". Pieces can have more or less knowledge about whats going on in the world and they can be brought out of the game-board. shannon/kanon, gaap, ronove etc. all know what world they are in. there is really nothing strange about piece-battler fighting with dlanor, he is controlled by lambda anyways. and of course, lets not forget, he is an accomplice of the culprit who has the same delusions of beato, that way he is able to "see" beato too etc. now Im only going to state what is said/shown, Im not gonna add interpretation here: it is said that meta-battlers soul is in the locked room, it is said that only his body remains on the layer above the game-board, it is said that battler even shortly before his marriage to erika "sees" the locked room, erika says to meta-battler he must get out of the room before he can do anything, lambda says to meta-battler "lets go back to the closed room, that will be your world from now on", it is shown how meta-battler tries to get out of the locked room at the beginning just by leaving through the door, meta-battler says while being married to erika "i cant get out". its said he can still realize whats going on around him - but it says explicitly he can do so JUST BARELY. now, its not even remotely possible to say the person locked in the closed-room isnt meta-battler just look at his clothes he wears when kanon comes to the rescue, its not the same as when he was pieces-battler. if you want to, you could say he "entered" his piece. after all, if we look at it from a normal game-board perspective, there should have been Erika around somewhere in the room. of course, the locked room he is in is somewhat still on another layer, kanon says so, the time is flowing differently.after all, this is a form of hell. but this locked room meta-battler is in is accesible from the game-board. "there are movements on the game board" - and the results of those movements on the game-board are that kanon enters a room in which time flows differently. its really easy to explain, part of the game-board became a hell of thought or however lamda called it. but it is always said that it is meta-battlers soul and not some other "entity" that is locked in the room. he doesnt immediately regain consciousness when he is rescued simply because of the ring. once it shatters, he immediately can come back. now, your speculation still would not explain why in the beginning battler in the closed room knew all the conditions about the closed room and later didnt even know how he got there. well, it could be he simply forgot, but my take on it is that the experiences he has in the room when its all dark and creepy in there occur AFTER he is married to Erika and BEFORE beato helps him to get out of there. they explicitly state that with the ring he wouldnt even be able to think about getting out of the room - and he actually cant anymore in these scenes- they said something about his heart dying (at the time he got the ring), and that also fits with the events that occur in the closed room after he doesnt remember anymore how he got there, for example his vague recollection of the method to leave through the bathroom or when Erika is biting off his ring-finger. he "reexperiences" some of his memories. the chain-lock also changed in a way that he would never be able to unset it, if it werent for Bern having some "fun" - fitting to the comment "we're going to lock your heart in the closed room you created" (even though he is already locked in there) and her statement that he wont be able to get out anymore after this. So everything fits well together if we just assume - as it is explicitly stated - that it is meta-battlers soul that is in the locked room and that spend years in there. We dont need to postulate this third layer. oh but if you mean that: there are pieces playing the parts of mystery, pieces playing part of fantasy and the meta-world. thats not that easy. but it wouldnt even matter if meta-battler "enters" his mystery-piece or his "fantasy-piece". after all, its still meta-battlers soul that enters the locked room through his piece. at least that is what is stated. and why would fantasy battler stand in the room where mystery-battler disappeared and say a red truth like "battler is not in this room". yes, it could be a fantasy-piece, but this piece is continuing the argument with erika that meta-battler is just in the middle of. its like ange the player taking control of her piece in episode 8. (btw, where would her player-"body" be in the end?) Unless you want to say even the meta in episode 6 was part of the game-board (which would cause HUGE CRACKS in the logic) it doesnt matter if meta-battlers "body" in that moment is meta-battlers or fiction-battlers. the fact is-as lambda says a bit later - its meta-battler that is going to the room. and why would mystery-kanon need to rescue a fantasy-battler from a room, that shoulnd have problems to get out of the room in the first place. for a fantasy-piece battler sure uses the human style to try to get out of that room, like smashing the window etc. and this "fantasy" battler can only be saved by "mystery-kanon" setting the chain again...eh wait, what? i think its best not to try to differentiate to much between "fantasy-pieces" and "mystery-pieces", because that would only lead to questions like - "what is even the connection between the meta-characters and their pieces" and that one, I fear, cant be really answered. there are too many contradictory statements, and Im not touching that subject..its just that in ep 6 the surrounding of the layers are really getting mixed up - as shown in the duel at the end between beato and erika - first they are in the chapel, then in the locked room, then in the golden land. it all switches around, I wouldnt try to argument that with every switch another piece is takin part in the duel. 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anyways, I was saying: Battlers thoughts in the closed room of episode 6 (the creepy one) very likely refer to the events that occured in prime - after what was shown in ep 7 tea party. he talks about a horrible memory of a family gathering after which he was dozing off. I already explained what I think the other part of his thoughts refers to (waking up in some unknown room, him&chain locks not going well together). This thing about dozing off is probably about him getting drunk on alcohol in prime, after he saw how his family had been killed. we see battler drinking to forget his worries several times on the game board after (almost) everyone died. I think that fits well with my speculation that what he remembers while in the closed room is what actually happened on rokkenjima in prime. I also mentioned that at the end of ep 5 beato refers to prime when she says "I wont let a human be the culprit" or "I knew a man who believed with all of his heart and the suffering he went through after he was forced to abadon this belief". last bit is maybe (here Im less sure) about how Battler didnt believe sayo that his parents shot everyone (that would explain his stubbornness to accept a human culprit in the beginning of the games). those comments also fit well with my speculation "battlers closed-room-memories = events of prime", because like that we already can reconstruct all of the events that happen in prime. and like knox states, we should be able to with the info we're giving in the story . I acutally always thought of the closed room of episode 6 as a "reenactment"of the closed room in prime. completely random (and crazy) thoughts: 1)oh, and just now I thought I could even go that far: that in episode 6 he was saved from his closed room by beato (in form of kanon) would be the opposite to what happened in prime, where she supposedly just left him alone to die in his locked room. and like that they made up for what happened in prime and had a happy ending. I would actually consider that good writing XD well, im only (half) kidding here. 2)but concerning random and baseless theories, I could even go as far as to say the magic ending we see at the end of umineko is the end of Dawn. we would have just jumped the whole eventsof the original plot of dawn and gotten straight to the happy ending. that way battlers "you didnt kill anyone in this world" would fit, cause beato actually didnt kill anyone in the world of Dawn. And this way we never got to read dawn either, cause erika screwed the story up (more or less) or at least beato having lost her memories caused a plot change, so that we only get to see the happy ending of the orginally planned dawn (well at least until beato refuses that ending, it can be considered happy :S). EDIT: now that even explains why he and beato are on such good terms when they leave the island. I always thought the magic ending where they leave rokkenjima is a fantasy interpretation of what really happened in prime. but its strange to think that beato would mean so much to him, after all, his whole family just died and he only spend 1 day max with sayo when they got out of there. but they talk as if they lived together through the whole meta-world. even as a fantasy-interpretation it would twist reality very very much. you'd also have to ask why battler wasnt with eva. now ALL OF THAT is explained if this magic ending is the dawn-ending. and while Im at it, that would actually explain what he means when in ep 6 he said "the game-board will probably vanish, but I now completely understood magic and I think Im able to bring you out of here". It means: he wrote the magic ending = the dawn ending with his "magic" (ability to write stories or to "create worlds") where he takes Beato away from the island (/gameboard). magic has been associated with the ability to create a world several times after all - the creator witch is the witch that exists on the highest level, right after that come the voyager-witches. EDIT: actually that is quite plausible, Battler said he understood everything about magic, and the highest level a witch can reach is the one of the creator witch, who creates worlds. If Battler states he understood everything, then he is able to create worlds. It also would fit from a storytelling pov - since his development starts from a know-nothing-at-all and someone who is allergical towards magic and finishes when he reaches the hights of a creator witch. futhermore, that would give us a logical explanation why battler says he is already dead in episode 8 - cause if the magic ending would occur AFTER the events of epsiosde 8 as a normal continuation on the same time-line as it is presented, he wouldnt know that he and beato would die in the end. And like this it also wouldnt violate the red truth "everyone died (in prime)" and would fit with my "battler-locked-room-theory" and with his memories of prime. (but the theory could be adapted here to fit a touya/ikuko ending). and whats best: both of these thoughts together would even explain why there are two different dawn stories - the one where he "grasped the possibilty" to make beato remember her former self and the one he originally wrote as a happy-ending story where they are able to leave the island thanks to his "magic". It even explains why so much emphasis is put on the dawn story he puts into beatos coffin. and it also explains why the magic ending is called the "magic" ending, because battler was able to get them out of there alive with his "magic" by writing dawn, as he stated he would do in ep 6. and that would make the magic ending the real ending after all, since nohting happens anymore after the events of episode 8 when ange chooses the magic ending. its shown in the VN that they all disappear - everything becomes black and it says stuff like "they would never talk to each other again" .thats the moment the gameboard disappears - exactly as battler mentioned in episode 6. Now all hes got to do is "take Beato out of there". The only story left to tell and by this I mean the only world left is the world created in dawn. all the other endings are just fantasy anyways. so the dawn ending is the real ending. and even more, that would actually explain the title of "dawn", considering they are at the "end of the world". EDIT: even better: dawn refers to the dawn of the third day!! and noone is allowed to ever read dawn cause that would destroy this last story/cat box where they still have the possibility to exist. and that would ALSO explain why battler talks about the game as being very important to him and beato and why hes so anxious about it. Not only that but that would EVEN explain why battler said he will end everything with this story (he says so in ep 6, well the original plan was that, but he changed it a bit and added ep 8) But he orgininally planned to end the gameboard with dawn and after that to take beato out. that makes sense if the magic ending is the dawn ending. And now (the next part could be revised) IF we assume that the logic error was not what he intended, his reaction towards erika screwing everything up and his efforts to protect the story are quite understandable. the last bit like I said can also be revised to fit a theory where battler DID (somehow) plan the logic error. Id have to think more deeply which version would be more probable. this theory until now fits both versions. its able to solve every contradiction and problems with overlapping layers. and the lyrics riposa in pace nel raconto que ho scritto[...]ecco il mio ultimo incantesimo also fit 100%. Its PAFEKUTOOO!! Haha, now if that isnt an awesome crack theory I dont know what is XDDDD im 100% kidding here, of course. but I might actually come to believe in my ad-hoc-theory if I go on thinking about this XD EDIT: Ok, I have done some thinking about it, and I dont think its that crazy anymore actually....now, episode 6 is stating to make some sense... Quote:
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it would also mean that eva has been invited to the world of the dead even though she wasnt dead - and she is the dead eva ushiromiya from 1986, after all, the eva ushiromiya from 1998 can only exist if her character changed and she "died" in 1986. battlers "we are all already dead" etc. would also not be correct. but even if we COULD say that the eva in "purgatory" is present and dead because she "died" in 1986, that would make the whole conversation about letting eva take care of ange during the halloween-party meaningless. and it would also not be understandable why Erika says Battler cant invite Ange to his golden land/land of the dead, after all, all you'd need to do is change your character to be present there. and ange did just that, she "died" in 1998. Sooooo confusing...Im sorry, I just had to write my thoughts to that. Well, guess we gotta wait. Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-11 at 17:06. |
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2015-03-11, 08:09 | Link #34923 | ||||||||||||||
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Yes the part about disappointed could account for Sayotrice, since Sayo would be disappointed that she doesn't have a vagina. But because it wasn't really specific, you could even translate what Beatrice said as an experience and that she is nothing but a bitter and jealous person. And as I have stated before, Rosa couldn't keep a boyfriend and Maria's father left her. They merely cum and dump on Rosa then left. Hence why she was disappointed, because Maria's father left her with a kid and a debt and the guy from Hokkaido did not meet her expectations and didn't want to be with her. Quote:
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2015-03-11, 09:35 | Link #34924 | |
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I don't even want to go too far into the Rosatrice theories here, but I want to ask four questions:
If Rosatrice was a thing like it is portrayed now, (1) Why is it Battler's fault that people die according to EP4 Beato? (2) Why is it a game that Beatrice created for Battler's sake according to EP4, 5? (3) Why would Battler feel guilty for Rosa going crazy about loneliness and money? (4) Why would it have changed anything if Battler had arrived one year earlier or later? Quote:
What is the basic disconnect between the meta-story and the 1998 story? Two different people created Dawn of the Golden Witch! The story in 1998 that is handed to Ange was written by Hachijô Tôya, who appears as a middle-aged woman who we learn is also a witch. The story that plays out on the gameboard though is created by Meta-Battler, who ends up being trapped in his own story. Now Battler is only able to escape the locked room when his "new Beatrice" takes on the memory of the old Beato and becomes able to free him from his dilemma. Locked-room Battler is characterized by being very frightened, not knowing his location, a storm happening outside (something that Tôya mentioned frightened him subconsciously), and generally feeling lost and confused. While EP5 was about Battler coming to terms with who Beato was and then trying to take all the blame from everybody including her, EP6 is about him understanding the merrit of "the witch Beatrice" when he fails at protecting everyone without blaming anybody. It is a process that Hachijô Tôya would have likely went through. |
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2015-03-11, 15:04 | Link #34925 | |||||
The True Culprit
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Beatrice or Battler forcing issues like you suggest undercut their emotional reasons for doing so in the first place, but just like Beatrice wanted Battler to remember on his own, Battler wants the same for Beato. The act of remembering is a personal proof that validates their hearts and hopes, and it's implied that the Logic Error was part of Battler's plans for helping Beatrice remember him. This is supported in Episode 8, when he shows genuine surprise that anything happened on the gameboard that he didn't know about, because there was a second Gamemaster. This isn't the case in episode 6, implying that despite letting Erika do as she pleased, he KNEW what she was doing even if she didn't announce them until later. He didn't control her, but she played into his hands. Quote:
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2015-03-11, 15:17 | Link #34926 |
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Hey, it's still kind of a clue that it was difficult for Kanon to give Jessica his real name. Kanon was created when he was already out of the orphanage and working. He had no need for a real name. Maybe he had to come up with his own name on the spot for Jessica.
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2015-03-11, 17:42 | Link #34927 | ||
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So what happens on the ikuko/touya layer somehow gives the world a structure and from an outside perspective you could even say its influencing the story of the book. From the inside perspective though the characters exist on their own, have their own free will etc. Its as if you'd say there is a god that creates everything, that still wouldnt change the fact that you're acting on your own if we observe the world from the inside (I have the permission to use metaphysical concepts - Im completely in line with the concepts presented in Umineko :P) So I really dont see a problem that there are two people writing a story simultaneously. In the world of the book, Battler writes Dawn. In the world of the "gods", as Lambda calls Featherine, Ikuko/Touya are writing it. (problems only arise when this "god" writes itself into the story, but I wont go into that now :S, but its one of the reasons I still havent completely accepted the touya/ikuko reality as a reality yet) So while with Touya/Ikuko you read it as a metaphor, in the world of the book, its just meta-battler. the reason why I thought like that is the following: he has those experiences in the room that are exactly the same as what happened in the meta before. He "meets" Bern there and he sees the red truths when he is in the "creepy" room. the scene with the window and his ring-finger, when he mentions he shoudnt go into the closet... everything shows that its meta-battler experiencing that. And he is -probably (cause these thought refer to nothing if not and prime would be unsolvable without those thoughts) - thinking about what happened in prime. So I read the closed room even as a new version of what happened in prime. random thoughts: also there are some scenes where he thinks "I wont die I wont die" before going to the closed room in ep6, which somehow seemed to refer to two things at the same time, that made me think that the prime-battler even might have still been alive at that point in time...well that was just me...,..Im probably completely wrong with this. but it WOULD further support the fact that its meta-battler in that room, cause hes the "spirit body of a human" as Lambda says in the manga. actually, there were several times when the comments/events that happened were meant to take place on two layers - a direct one and a metaphorical one: -when Bern is talking to battler in the ???? of the first and second episode she also talks to us viewers -the whole "you've gotta trust in the author, try to use knox" in ep 5 was also adressed primarily at battler and metaphorically to the viewer -the whole 8th episode is pretty much just a giant insult to the viewers XD I admit I was one of those goats :P -some read the episodes even as a form for Touya to regain his memories (Im not COMPLETELY convinced yet that Touya and Ikuko really "exist"- I mean "reality-exist", not "book-world-exist" though) seems to me ryukishi really likes ambiguous story-telling. So imo its both true at the same time - its a metaphor for Touya, but in the world of the book its just purely meta-battler. while Im at it with all this touya/ikuko and book-world stuff, there is something I really cant grasp all that well and that is pretty complicated. Id be really happy if someone could help here: I suppose: the world we are shown in umineko is the world of a book. WITHIN! this book, we are always shown bits and pieces of prime, and prime is referred to several times in the book. the most striking scene being the tea party in episode 7, which is also told within the book. THAT MEANS: the prime took part in the book-world as well. It might be the same prime as in the non-book-reality and we're heavily lead to think that (I think so too) but it doesnt change the fact that prime is part of the book-story itself. So NOW: its obvious that the magic ending didnt occur like that, Im talking about the battler/beato scene, its a fantasy even though its presented as being an interpretation of prime. But at the same time we are led to believe that this scene also is part of the book. Its HAS TO BE PART OF THE BOOK, because battler and beato are referring to events that happened in the book-story before. no battler/sayo from the real world could EVER refer to events that happened in a book that wasnt written by that point in time. And the fantasy-scenes are all part of the book anyways. But if that argument for whatever reason is not convincing enough: Its even shown that featherine is writing that part ((which does not contradict my crack-theory btw XD)). So question until here: is that prime? is that book-world prime? is that just a continuation of the book-story without any reference to prime at all? Im HEAVILY tending towards the latter. Anyways, what is really complicated is the following: in this book-scene!!!, battler seperates into two persons - the one that drowns and the one that goes on living (presumably as touya). BUT: remember this scene takes place INSIDE THE BOOK. Meaning INSIDE THE WORLD OF THE BOOK there is a battler that survives that becomes touya. but that would actually make us question the very first premise that everything happens inside a book, because the book is writing itself in this sense. the touya in the book would write a story about himself in which once again a touya would be created in the book-world, that writes about...etc. But the answer cant be: So what? The book simply ends after the magic ending. Thats because the book goes on until we see the ending scene with Ange, which must be part of the book because Ange couldnt refer to scenes that happened in the book (witches and red-truths in Episode 8) if she was real-life Ange. So with the Battler/beato scene everything is getting mixed up. I dont really get it. if ryukishi wanted to create a featherine-like paradoxon here where beginning and end are connected - well done. I dont think so though. and i wonder how you're supposed to explain that with the touya/ikuko explanation we have until now. Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-11 at 18:56. |
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2015-03-11, 21:17 | Link #34928 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Well, the parallel work. Early locked-room Battler can't remember how he ended up in the locked room, which can be a hint to memory less Tohya, to escape tot he locked room he even tried to harm himself and devasted the room, which can be a hint to Tohya's fits and how he ended up on a wheelchair. As Kanon reaches him he's aware of his role again, which might be a hint to him recovering his memory. Kanon encourages him to go back because there's a person fighting in his place (Beato) and one who's waiting for his return (Ange). It can be a hint to how Ikuko had to support him or to how the catbox was held together only by the forgeries Sayo left behind and to how Tohya should collect his courage and try and reach Ange somehow (though it's interesting how in Ep 8 Battler will admit that he is dead and can't go back to Ange). Kanon remaining trapped in the locked room and disappearing could be a parallel to how Sayo's story was erased. Her confession is not made public and the truth remains hidden. It's possible to guess the trick used to trap Kanon in the room and make him disappear but ultimately Kanon won't be rescued. It can also be a hint to how Sayo died so even if Battler is now free he can't go back to save her (as said in Ep 7 he remembered but it was too late). Quote:
The whole discussion in chap 25 refers to Prime. You've to reject Eva's diary and it's truth if you want to push a Rosatrice theory on Prime. In it Beatrice and Rosa are clearly 2 different people. Quote:
Genji is not so helplessly in the hands of the Ushiromiya. He owns his loyalty to Kinzo, his best friend and saviour but he might decide he owns nothing to Rosa. Quote:
While yes, accepting the theory that Gohda was bribed is logic, believable and well, the intended solution, we go back to the fact that the premise (Rosa solving the epitaph, getting the gold and deciding to stage the mystery murder game in which she kills everyone and so on) it's not looking believable. So maybe the best way to go at it would be discussing the premise instead than the murders case by case. Quote:
In addition we stumble back to another problem of Rosatrice. It increases the amount of falsehood and lack of info in the tale exponentially. Quote:
In the official solution the accomplice in Ep 2 is Rosa, in Ep 3 is Eva. Like Battler in Ep 5, they're used to hide the true culprit. Kanon's declaration is just a red herring to push us toward the wrong culprit. Quote:
Hum... I'm skipping your other points not because they aren't interesting but because they stumbled in the problem mentioned before. Rosatrice requires to basically discharge too much and claim it's just fantasy or an interpretation or that we're missing bits. I guess until the VN was out some of them could work even if they seemed the most complicate and roundabout choice but as all the additional info were laid bare it becomes hard for me to repaint everything we were already confirmed was true in such a radical way as the Rosatrice AU doesn't even seem as catching to me as the Sayotrice version. That's why I think that before discussing tricks and magic scenes interpretation Rosatrice needs a better basis to work. As long as the premise that pushed Rosa to do all this doesn't seem believable to me, not only the solutions to tricks that require this premise feel weak and unbelievable but the same applies to the magic scenes that require a certain interpretation. And mind you, until the Sayotrice premise wasn't better explained I complained against some of what seemed weak points of it as well, even when it was already made official. So for me it's not just a matter of official vs unofficial, it a matter of good premises vs not good premise. When the Rosatrice's premise will be worked in such way I'll manage to say 'well, yes, I can totally see Rosa doing that' I'll probably manage to be more open to interpretations that go against canon. As it stands it just seems unbelievable. Sorry about it. Quote:
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Ironically, if Kanon were to reveal to Jessica his real name, it would mean he would destroy himself if he were to consider it as 'Yasuda Sayo/Shannon' and would destroy any chance he could have to a relationship with her if he were to consider it 'Ushiromiya Lion'. Either way Kanon can't reveal his true name. I like how the name he gave is Sayo spelled backwards in japanese, while adding an “i” (for “ai/love”, for “without love it can’t be be seen”). It's as if he's telling Jessica that he's the other side of Sayo and that can be seen only with love. Quote:
Tohya building his own happy fantasy of saving Ange is meaningful only if Ange can be saved by his tales, if this possibility exist. Otherwise it's just pointless fantasy. Yes, we don't know real Ange. Technically we don't know anyone real as they're all pieces apart from Tohya. But there's a real Ange, a real Ange that has suffered through those years. And for me she's more important than her piece form. Maybe that's just me. Quote:
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The whole discussion was about how Tohya could write the truth about Sayo's backstory. He can put in his tale the info about Rudolf switching the babies because it's common knowledge in the future but how would he know that Sayo had an immaginary friend named Gaap? Or that she played a prank to Berune? That Kumasawa covered up for her saying a kitten broke the vase? Without knowing he found Sayo's confession we're left with three possibilities: - he made up a lot of things ergo Ep 7 isn't actually telling us Sayo's true backstory but a fantasy backstory Tohya made up for her... which as you can guess is disappointing. - before leaving Rokkenjima he had a long chat with Sayo in which she told him the whole story of her life in details... and even though he still hadn't recovered his memory in full he managed to remember it all. It feels unlikely but possible. - Sayo survived and when he managed to remember everything the two faced each other and she explained him his backstory. The whole chat was trasposed in Umineko in the symbolic form of Ep 7. At the time possibly the best explanation but now obsolete as Tohya just has to read the confession to know the whole story without needing Sayo to be alive to tell him. Quote:
After planning it he learnt some things like that something like a logic error existed so he has to be wary of it in his battle with Erika and that he hadn't resurrected the real Beato. Learning of the logic error he might have figured Erika would be interested in going for it... or he might have figured later on. However, as the situation evolved, he decided to let Erika believe he had trapped him into one. He accepted to revise the plot, after all, so he might have figured Erika's plan and to play along with it only when Erika pushed for some duck tape. Quote:
Now... about the Battler in the room thing. At the start of Ep 6 Bern talking to Battler asks him: Quote:
In a way, as MetaBattler is solely focused on this, it's as if he's also trapped in the room. Differently from Featherine that dropped Bern, her piece, in a logic error from which Bern had to find a way out on her own, MetaBattler can not let the logic error go unsolved. He has to get PieceBattler out of that room that now is frozen in time. Through the whole game people refers to PieceBattler as if he and MetaBattler were one and the same for example: Quote:
And, as you pointed out, it's just the 'soul' that's closed in that room. MetaBattler isn't really there. He can't be on the gameboard. It'll be fantasy he's in there with his cape on. And where would be Piece Battler anyway? In the closed room there's PieceBattler. The scenes we're shown with what looks like MetaBattler trying to get out and Kanon saving him and getting the collar in his place are part of the story but are the fantasy layer. They're told to Erika in the same way as she was told about the love trial or of how Kanon disappeared. MetaBattler's soul is 'locked in the room' not because of the lock but because he refuses to acknowledge the logic error. Lambda said he had two options, either fixing it or acknowledge he made it. Quote:
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The fantasy layer isn't something we need to postulate or not. The existence of a fantasy part or a fantasy layer is shown through all the games. Through the four games MetaBattler is shown stakes flying, towers emerging, Kumasawa becoming Virgilia who gets killed and then shows up to him, Kinzo summoning the Siesta and Gaap, Krauss' group fighting the goats, Beato fighting Erika in Kinzo's room while MetaBeato is comatose and PieceErika is talking to the adults, Maria dressing up as a witch and fighting Erika while they're actually in what looks like the golden land while they're actually with the cousins. It's part of rule Y that has that lies agreed on by everyone can be depicted as actually happening and that in a locked room situation anything goes therefore you can show everything you want as long as there are no observers. Kanon is shown rescuing fantasy Battler because it's this scene that will be shown as the fantasy interpretation of the story. In truth Kanon rescued PieceBattler and we're shown in Ep 8 that when the 'rescuing' took place Battler was in his normal clothes, not with his cape while Kanon wasn't in his normal clothes, the one we see he has when he saves fantasy Battler and then disappeares but in the clothes Erika sees when she opens the closet. I hope I made things a little clearer. As for where Ange's Player body is in ep 8, it's never stated. Usually players end up in the room in purgatorio and watch things from there but Ange was tied to her piece so maybe she can't leave it alone. I'm not sure she's inside it as when she disappears she walks away from it as she starts to slowly vanish. Occasionally her body is at Featherine's but well, there are also parts who're a mystery. Quote:
Of course it's also possible she never checked. Also Battler says that it was Quote:
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When they're in the purgatorio they can get a view of the scene but here there's not such showing window and we only hear Beato giving a quick summary of what went on. Quote:
But I think this is a discussion that we'll better resume when the manga will reach this part and will probably hand us more elements to work with. |
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2015-03-13, 06:23 | Link #34929 | ||||
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I dont know where some of you take the info of "she didnt have split personalities" from, but it doesnt even really matter if she has it or not. I find the info we get quite contradictory - if we compare ep 7 and ep 8. and the epilogue with battler/touya being in a similar situation as Yasu (SIMILAR :S), is really just emphasizing one thing - and that is completely independent of the question if she is mentally ill or not: there exist different personalities in Yasu. if you want to understand it not as a mental illnes: the concept has even been established in umineko quite clearly - you're a different person in different environments. but yasu is taking that to the extreme that makes them (almost?) become seperate personalities. as shannon she loves george, as kanon he loves jessica, as beato she loves battler. and they all behave differently. in what way they are completely seperate doesnt even matter. the fact is "they only have part of a soul, they are one yet many" etc. there are countless phrases like that that hint at yasus soul, and its not just "playing kanon". as you see in the "afterlife", shannon and kanon and beato exist seperate from each other. the "acting" of sayo has taken on a life of its own,so to speak, if you want to consider it acting in the first place. in our confessions, it even shows the different thinking patterns between the three personalities quite clearly imo. the red with "each servant has a key" etc. is working not because someone is dressing up, but because you can see them as different personalities - if you have enough love that is :P. when beato says kanon is dead, it really means kanon is "dead". same for shannon. they are never revived. Quote:
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erika is a piece - she is bernkastels piece. it was said over and over and over again, that Bern is her master. and only bern can resurrect erika at the end of episode 6, and only bern can save her from the sea of oblivion. only bern is her master. erika doesnt have another master than bern. I hope Im understanding you here in a correct way: so you say because erika is just a piece, battler can control her? there is not a single hint for that. not once. nowhere. in fact, everything mentioned above says exactly the opposite. also, if you think about it, if he could control her, that would make the whole duel erika vs. battler in episode 6 completely and utterly meaningless. he is the game master, but the other player has freedom to influence the game in his own way or it wouldnt be a game in the first place. if it wasnt like that, battler in ep 1-4 never had the chance to take "his turns" on the gameboard, and he never had the chance to solve the riddle, because beato would - like a big omnipotent existence - control EVERYTHING. but its always stated each player on the game-board has his own pieces. I sometimes wonder why people completely neglect the most fundamental ideas of umineko :S erika is NOT battlers piece, she is berns piece, and he cant control what she does. again - if not, that would make the whole "erika vs. battler"-fight, completely meaningless. Ok, now lets get to the last part - battler stating he is the game master he should be aware of everything. Im not completely saying you cant interpret it that way. there is of course a way to see it like you said, but quite a lot about the statements how exactly "game master-pieces-game-board" relate are ambiguous or even contradictory. I dont want to get out of this by just saying battlers statement is a lie though. 1) its just that the game-master is aware of everything thats happening on the game-baord that he focuses his mind on, or he has to search through the story to know what he wants to know or something, however you want to picture the game-master looking at the game-board. the way it was said in episode 8 -to me - never seemed to have such a big meaning like "oh wow, what a big reveal, now I completely get episode 6" more like "I planned this game, I know where all the pieces are, so who led Ange away from that room?". so if battler doesnt pay attention to what erika does on the game-board, she can run around without him noticing it. Id go even as far as to say its possible to hide ones own move from the game-master (erika understands pretty well how the game works). but there was really no reason for ange to do something like that and neither did Ange understand all the rules nor was she aware of her status as a player. the construction of your theory also falls apart when you think about what lambda and bern say in episode 6. lambda has been the game master before, and bern knows how the game works anyways. still, they help erika with her plan to fool battler, even though those two should now, if your theory is correct, that that isnt possible at all. also think about lambdas reaction here "aaaah, I get it, when you become the game master you get so full of yourself...". You'd have to say that even lambda AND Bern are putting on an act to help battler accomplish his goals. and what would that even mean for berns character as a whole? what would that make out of episode 8? and lets not forget episode 5, where lambda- the game-master!!!- was surprised to what length erika went to make natsuhi into the culprit - when she put on the seals and when she was listening in on battler sleeping the whole night. 2)Said a bit differenty - the only ones that can influence the game board are the game master and his contrahent - the player. The pieces on the game board are always controlled by the game master or the player (until now I only mentioned facts) - so if there is only Battler and Ange on the game board that can influence the game board, and Ange is sleeping in the room, its really not that surprising that he wonders where Ange has disappeared off to. The way Ange was back then gives Battler no reason to assume she would disappear without telling anyone. You can even think about it like he actively "looked" for Ange afterwards on the game board (however you want to think about that) and didnt find her. But Im emphasizing the point that he ACTIVELY searches for her. the situation with erika is different. You also realize that Battler already wondered why the door was locked and that he made an assumption that was completely off without being all panicky. "alert alert, something happened to the door that you didnt plan and see" XD obviously something like that didnt happen - an all-seeing battler would already have a problem with that door and wonder what happened in there. Needless to say, he would even wonder where Ange went BEFORE opening the door, since he would be all-seeing after all. game-master-battler can not control his opponent/the other player, so he doesnt know what happened to Ange. game-master battler does NOT automatically see every scene. Ergo: this statement does NOT imply that game-master battler has seen erikas moves. Whatever explanation suits you best, both of them are more plausible than choosing the opposite and negate all those facts I mentioned just to construct something like "battler planned everything in game 6" if you interpret it in your way it would mean the whole episode 6 is just a giant lie, even the meta would be just a lie, from start to finish. now THAT would take away all the emotional impact. battler would lie in the beginning for no reason, he would lie later on when he pretends he didnt realize what erika does, he would lie when he gives erika the seals, dlanor would lie when she says this was a stupid move of battler (and dlanor 100% understands the game -look at ep 5 and our confessions), of course battler would only pretend to try to get out of the locked room, he would lie when he asked beato to tell him how to get out of the room, he would lie in the end when he says to beato "what an aweful trick", he would lie when he asks her how beato solved the logic error (before the duel with erika), lambda would lie in every scene and of course bern would lie when she ridicules him etc. and all of that just because of battlers statements that he should know what happened on the game board? while it was even shown before that the game-master isnt all-seeing if he doesnt pay attention? its really much MUCH easier with my theory, and I think in my next post, I can support my claim even better that battler did NOT plan everything. see Im not COMPLETELY against the idea that battler "somehow" intended the logic error to happen, its just that this statement from ep 8 "i should know..." on its own isnt working. But if you give me more "heavily implying" statements , Id be more than happy to refute them as well! Quote:
Well you say so. And you're certainly allowed to think so too. You just have to force it a bit, because that would make Kanons statement "the time will never advance, I will stay here for all eternity" completely meaningless. after all, just because they abandoned the game and time stops, it doesnt mean noone will come...and the fact that a red refers to something that never REALLY happened, which would be a first, is also a bit strange, but you're certainly allowed to think so and bring in paradoxes to solve this problem. I find the explanation with a paradox a bit over the top to explain a -supposedly unimportant - red truth, but its possible nonetheless. still, even with that, the red would be utterly pointless at that time. "oh yes, and by the way, everyone died of course - hypothetically - by the bomb. dont forget that, cause its really not important at all for the 6th episode" XD Im sorry for my sarcasm. Compared to that, Id still prefer jjblue1s explanation that the red refers to a later game-board in ep 7 or something, even though that too is, in my opinion, highly questionable. Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-13 at 15:03. |
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2015-03-13, 09:32 | Link #34930 | ||||||||||||||||||
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First of all, let me thank you for answering my long posts! I feel like Im giving off the impressions Im always arguing against you (I will too in this post ), but Im actually enjoying this discussion a lot, and I think you helped me clear up some misunderstandings I had. Still, (also thanks to the discussions with you) I think I might now be able to completely reconstruct prime and also explain the ending, so Im sticking to some of my theories as well
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(Please dont think of the capitals as me screaming, I always use them for emphasizing and immitate the intonation) Quote:
But the fact that we cant be sure makes it pretty much pointless thinking about who knows what. I dont know how to explain what I mean- it feels like Ryukishi didnt give this too much thought. The same as with Evas diary - its a means to get to the truth, she cant know what was said in the conversation between Kyrie and Rudolf and she cant even be completely sure it was those two alone who killed everyone. Yet, it is all true and can be read in Evas diary. I dont think too much about "how can they know what they know" Quote:
With your last part, like I said - Im fine. the thing about him revising the plot somehow in the middle of the game according to erikas moves. this is ok. And I might even come to say I wont argue about that point anymore at all. However, first you still gotta argue against other parts of my theory, where its not planned - Ill write another post, cause thats gonna be to long. Quote:
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Even if you somehow create an explanation for some things, there is still a TON of other hints that say otherwise, no not even hints, they are clear statements- the ones I mentioned in my previous post, that you cant explain at all. Some of them you also didnt address. Like fantasy-piece-battler suddenly losing his memories, or the fact that in the fantasy layer, kanon doesnt have a real body anymore - nothing should hinder him from leaving the room...and all the statements about battlers soul being in the closed room and everything lambda says - you just completely ignore that and instead say something like "in a way he is completely focused on whats happening in the closed room". Why not just accept it the way it is stated OFTEN and CLEARLY and in the manga/VN: its his soul that is trapped in there? I dont understand why you'd want to interpret it against everything that is said (imagine a desperate intonation here please XD) Quote:
So Im forced to touch the topic of relation between game-master and pieces after all look at the following points: -remember turn of the golden witch, when meta-battler waited for beato to make a move and pieces-battler says "Its just not my turn yet" -you remember the end of turn of the golden witch, when beato says something like "didnt you surrender down to your very soul" and where pieces-battler the detective!!!! suddenly sees beato and kinzo (both are DEAD) -remember the end of episode 4, where beato refers to battler as "Im going to kill you now", you all think it only refers to the game board, lets accept that for once, but it is definitely also meta-battler she tells it too -end of ep 4 - pieces battler becomes meta-battler once they start talking about how ange died -ep 3: meta-beato searches around in the pockets of rudolf and kyrie - directly leaves the meta and goes into the game-board, and its not like there are suddenly two bodies of beato -ep 3 beato gets "sewn"and only her heart remains, there is no meta-body left in the meta BUT in ep 4-end: meta-beato vs meta-battler duel on the game-board - beatos body is destroyed, only her heart remains, but in meta-beatos body still remains on the other layer (as shown in ep 5) -various pieces leave and enter the game-board, meta-beato does too without leaving a meta-corpse behind -ep 5- battler says to dlanor that its not him on the game board, YET: in ep 8 erika asks meta-battler how he felt when he made the phone-call to natsuhi -its stated piece =/= meta-person, and yet when everyone assembles in the court of episode 5, there is only meta-battler in the court, his piece had disappeared => THATS why I said I didnt want to touch this subject, because there are clearly quite contradictory statements here. seperate, connected ? its not that easy, you can NEVER EVER explain everything by just saying theres just every piece x2 and the meta-body and there are things happening on the mystery-layer, things happening on the fantasy-layer and things happening in the meta, and those world never overlap. its doesnt work that way, the concepts arent that clear-cut. and it even hints at the fact that the pieces on the game-board are indeed the souls of everyone "with strings attached". I always thought about it like the meta-person and the piece as "somewhat" connected, but Im deliberately saying that in a vague way. Just accept that the difference between meta-body, and "piece-body" is not that clear. and that there is no third "fantasy-body" but just the piece acting as part of fantasy and mystery. you get a problem if you dont, as you see with when I was aking where anges body appears to in ep 8. you cant explain it at all. like bern leaving her body in ep 8 to talk with featherine, even though she is a layer above them, such things arent unusual in umineko Quote:
if it makes it easier for you to understand - battlers soul "enters" his piece. or like that: piece-battler is "becoming" meta-battler and the room is becoming warped. please think about about the time meta-battler fought with erika in the locked room, the same as beato does later on in the duel, that is meta-battler there. its the same later on. its just that when he is locked in the closed room, he cant go back to the meta and his soul is seperated from his body. I really dont know how else I should explain it. there is no clear rule that says how the meta-person and the pieces are interchanged in the first place as I told you. sometimes they leave a body behind, sometimes they dont. its just ryukishis way of writing his story. the layers overlap all the time. what happens in ep 6 probably comes closest to what happens in the end of ep 4. really its SO hard for me to explain, because i dont have a problem here at all XD Edit: I have thought of a way to make you understand it easily. Think like this: Meta-Battler has his own body when he enters the game-board. Its not a sperate fantasy-piece, its just another layer so he takes on another "body" which is equal to being a container for his soul. Like Bern and Lambda are also on the game-board together with meta-battler. if it makes it easier for you to understand, Ill write it like this. Oh and another argument that occurred to me: remember ep 5 when all the pieces were assembled in the court? where is fantasy-piece-maria? there is only a mystery-piece maria. thats what I meant to say you postulate a third layer with seperate fantasy-pieces here just for ep 6, for the first time. you never use it before. Quote:
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Let me also ask you that: you know how beato is a "piece" in ep 6. the game-master beato died. So is there a mystery-piece beato? hard to believe right? since mystery-piece-beato does not exist - she would overlap with sayo on the mystery-layer. so what is that beato in the chapel? she's still the piece right? with her memories. Like the piece-beato at the end of ep 5. and look here - shes a piece that is outside of the fantasy layer and interacting with the meta btw (=> NO clear difference between meta and game-board). you know when kanon lets battler out of the room, he tells him to go back to beato and ange. where is he running off too? if I try to make a clear difference between the layers, then poor-fantasy-battler will find, that there is noone waiting for him XD cause piece-beato is currently busy saving meta-battler. unless you want to say Beatos fantasy-piece! (remember, there is no rela equivalent mystery-piece) has suddenly multiplied....hes running off to his own body, if you want to describe it like that. The longer I think about it the more it appears to me that the problem you're having here is similar to someone asking while watching a musical "are they singing for real in the story of the movie?" XD (Not meant in an offensive way AT ALL), I just thought thats a good comparison Quote:
Yes, Im even more sure now that I am right XD Quote:
Im sorry, I hope my argument didnt sound too aggressive, I might edit some things later on. Fact is, Im enjoying this very much! So please dont take that the wrong way, because its definitely not meant to be offending. Its also not that Im not willing to revise my "theories", but with this, just let me say it here, Im 100% sure Im right. Quote:
I explained that already didnt I? I also thought about that sentence. Of course he says "from when I was very young". Imagine he didnt say that. Imagine he talked about horrible memories of a family gathering where afterwards he was falling asleep and ending up in a room he didnt know. Just imagine that as a viewer that reads Ryukishis story. What would be the very first thing you'd think? I assume it would be: He is definitely talking about prime here. You'd immediately think that, wouldnt you? This sentence -from a story-telling perspective- is just there to make you think he is NOT talking about prime. Just a mean sentence to confuse the viewer. But you know why we can be pretty sure he IS talking about prime? Even though van dine doesnt completely apply, the one thing, that refers to there being no unnecessary clues, seems to hold true- even Will used that to defend against goats. And while there are a whole lot of misleading hints, those misleading hints at least led SOMEWHERE. For example - Battler saying he is the culprit in ep 5 -> he is protecting beato, rudolf saying he is probably killed this night-> killed by kyrie, battler is not asumus son -> he is kyries son. every misleading hint has a solution, just this one, this big fat elephant in the room is leading nowhere, cause there was NEVER EVER mentioned a family gathering that was horrible and where he was locked in a room afterwards. Never. And the way Asumu is depicted and how its stated that she gave him all the love she could, definitely shows Battler had a good childhood. let me repeat: there is NEVER, not once, even REMOTELY mentioned ANYTHING that relates to a family gathering when he was 12 years or younger where Battler had such a horrible memory. But that might not yet completely convince you, so let me go on: Then what is "when he was very young" referring to? Really, you know how long he's been in the closed room already by that point? Kanon says its been years, and not only does the time in the locked room count. In the meta, time is passing as well. Beato talks about her 6 years as 1000 years, so the flow of time in the world of witches is really not defined that well. and from battlers point of view, certainly much time has passed already. And oh wonder! What was the episode again when they were talking about the flow of time being different in the world of witches? Exactly, it was episode 6! ryukishi is nice enough to give us all the clues we need in this episode. the whole episode 6 is basically saying us over and over again to think about the "flow of time". but if only you consider kanons "how many years have passed in this closed room" alone, this allows battler already to think of himself back then in prime as "very young". Its like 1000 year old beato would refer to herself as young when she was only 20 or something years old. In fact, I think Kanon mentioning the years that battler spend in the room, is supposed to be a giant clue for that. You just have to put 1+1 together here and it is quite obvious, here you have the hint to what happened in prime. And last but not least, I really can reconstruct the basic events of prime with just these informations. It explains a LOT of everything that happens in the games after that, a lot of Battlers behaviour, a lot of the metaphors, a lot of the red truths. And that is exactly what we should be able to do - solving the story with just the infos given. Without Battlers memores, we cant reconstruct what happend in prime, with them we can. And I think I can explain the ending of umineko now too. Quote:
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that way, the reason Battler forgot everything while in the room can also be explained very well, something one cant do with your theory. But you just ignored this part of my answer (by the way, even though I have not completely given up on the interpretation that battler himself let the logic error occur, I have a new theory that fits perfectly and in which he does NOT cause it himself - that is one of the reasons after all why you dont want to admit that its meta-battler in the closed room) Quote:
Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-14 at 15:12. |
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2015-03-13, 14:00 | Link #34931 | ||||||||
The True Culprit
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And that's ultimately what she's doing. She's roleplaying. Quote:
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Also, even if Battler DID have that much control, it only serves things thematically because it means he's behaving like Beatrice and performing her level of tricks. He understands Beatrice's heart and demonstrates it BECAUSE he effects everyone with the Logic Error. Quote:
This is literally how Beato's magic works, and Battler inherited it. Quote:
Though if they are the same it just sort of leans towards my interpretation of Battler the Mastermind, so either way I'm fine with the outcome. :P Quote:
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2015-03-13, 17:18 | Link #34932 | ||
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Another idea: Maybe the author conisider this book too demanding and lifted the difficulty form it (the description of Ep6 says that there no difficulty). Quote:
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2015-03-13, 22:49 | Link #34933 |
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Once again I was thinking about any possible exaggeration/inconsistency at October 6th. Regarding the boat I wondered if it was possible for Battler to learn how to drive it by himself, or if Sayo herself would have known how to in the first place.
Yes I feel incredibly stupid now, that she could handle arms and demolition but not a motorboat... And it probably would keep bugging me if it wasn't because I saw the Shrine bomb test (manga ver) in more detail, where she detonated the thing from the boat: http://batoshan.tumblr.com/post/1008...etween-shannon |
2015-03-14, 14:26 | Link #34934 | ||||||||||
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Imagine you are with your friends. And in this group, you are quite open-minded and feel proud of yourself and self-confident etc., could even be theres a girl in your group you love. Then you are working at your job, everyone treats you like sh***, you hate everyone, feel pissed-off at life whenever you're there etc. thats what it means when they talk in umineko about it, that you're a different character when you're in different situations. its also an established concept in psychology - there is no "true"me. you're a different person when you're in different situations. now, sayo is taking that to the extreme!! what started out as role-playing really caused her to develop different thinking pattern, like everyone else does, but she does the same ^10. like kanon e.g., he was there so sayo could give him her negative emotions like she said in confessions in the manga) and shannon is there to feel good and get along with everyone. I described that role-playing as "its developed a life on its own". she has different thinking patterns when she is shannon, kanon or beato, they are in that sense, different "personalities". im repeating myself here...as shannon, she even developed love for george, as kanon for jessica and as beato for battler. you cant dismiss sayos characters as "mere role-playing". she doesnt appear to be mentally ill, but she certainly feels like every personality feels whenever she takes on this "role". Its explained in Umineko! Im just repeating what is quite clearly written there! When "Shannon" dies, it means Sayo is giving up on "playing" Shannon, she gives up on her feelings for george, she gives up on the though-process to try to get along with everyone etc. pp. This "Shannon" is never revived once she "dies" or if you want to have another formulation: once sayo lets shannon "die". there are no resurrections. and afterwards, its just sayo dressing up as kanon and shannon - BUT here its JUST the outside appearance - just changing clothes, hairstyle etc. it doesnt mean she falls back into her old thinking patterns! "its kanon, yet it isnt". I mean everything I said is already told quite clearly in Umineko itself. Please think about why Shannon, Kanon and Beato have a different existence in the "afterlife". In Umineko its repeated almost endlessly that it is NOT mere role-playing what Sayo does. Quote:
And Im sorry, but with all your comments that follow you're actually not able to argue against me at all. I have barely found any argument in your post at all, just baseless statements like "its ridiculous" - and that is an opinion, not an argument. An argument is for example the following: He can NOT predict Erikas moves, the same way Battler can NOT predict Anges moves in his last game. He wants to show her a game and at the end, she has to choose one door. that was his ORIGINAL plan, even before Bern intervened. Like you said - Battler should have known which door she would choose. What great freedom for Ange! you seem to have missed this very important point: beato takes on a RISK in her games, even Will says so. battler could have solved the riddle (actually, she had hoped for that originally), or he could have taken a look a shannon in ep 1. a RISK is only existent if you CANT foresee every move your opponent makes. Really, this is one a the basic premises of umineko as a story, from ep 1 to ep 6. I wonder what was your understanding about how the game worked? your "games" arent chess-games at all, they are just a big theatre show. Do you know why you have to be careful no logic-error occurs? Because you CANT always predict what your opponent will do. If you could, there would really be no need to be careful not to fall into a logic error. All you can do is be really careful, and be especially careful when using the red truth (stated in umineko itself)- what basically shows that only the basic outlines of the story is written btw, becaue the red is determinding how the story proceeds and could be blocking your next moves - but the reason you have to be careful in the first place is because you dont immediately understand the other players thought-patterns. Becoming a game master =/= knowing what your opponent will do. There would be no "game" according to your theory, in ep 1,2,3,4 and 5, the one between lambda and erika, there would be no game at all. Really, those are all basic "rules" of the game-board. you dont even have to question that. Im not saying anything new or outrageous here. how did you even imagine a game could work or a game like that could ever be called an even match???? And dont tell me now Beato, Battler, Virgilia, Dlanor etc. lied too, when they described Beatos game as exactly that. chess is about to TRY to predict the moves of your opponent, its described as chess because you have to make an effort to do so! AN EFFORT! Becoming a game-master does not automatically enable you to understand the other players thought-patterns. "she can't ACTUALLY perform secret moves he doesn't know about." Again: No argument at all! Youre just saying that! I can also say "There is a ACTUALLY a man living on the moon" Im not giving an argument here. Where is your knowledge even coming from??? You just invent something here, while in umineko the opposite is stated! Even Lambda in game 5 is surprised by Erikas move. But sadly you just ignored this fact in your answer...:S Really, you're saying baseless stuff. Of course she can perform moves he doesnt know about! Its written there - in umineko! And you also just ignored everything about the door in ep 8 and Ange disappearing from her room long before Battler realized anything was strange. He even asks himself what Ange has done on the game-board in ep 8- that she probably closed the door by herself - which is not correct! Please, just look at whats written! Its CLEARLY stated that Battler does NOT KNOW everything that happens! Let me borrow you words here Its clearly written there, what more do you need? Quote:
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If you still want to say Battler caused the logic error based on this statement, I cant argue against that anymore, because you barely use arguments with which you could support your claims. And you certainnly have not refuted one of my arguments with another argument. Even that was explained in Umineko XD You just say, "its not true" or "its ridiulous", how am I supposed to argue against that when youre merely stating your opinion? the only things that are arguments are - bern was never a game-master and lambda is a neutral party. That isnt really enough as Ive pointed out, but lets just say we'd accept those two for a moment to say not everyone would need to play along. there are still A TON of even stronger! arguments I wrote down, that you have yet to refute. And let me just tell you that: Battler wrote a story which he put into Beatos coffin => He is the author of the story. He doesnt want anyone to play around with the pieces and the story. Im asking you now. How would anyone be able to play around with the story? He is the author. You know what? here's basically the biggest hint that battler didnt plan the logic error. It certainly sounds like this is ep 6 done right, like he regrets what happened in ep 6 so he doesnt want anyone to read his story again -"reading" the story aloud means you can play with it, as it is shown! in ep 8 manga. Letting someone read it means youre able to play with the pieces and the same thing could happen what happened in ep 6 - where his family members were killed off. But again, maybe battler is just telling us a lie there in ep 7(sarcasm). And you can ask yourself why both stories are called "dawn" now... Quote:
we've been discussing this all before. I could somewhat still agree with jjblue1, saying he saw what erika did on the game-board and he more or less spontaneously reacted to that and let the logic-error occur. But your theory "he can understand her thought process and can predict and account for what she's going to do on the gameboard" isnt cutting it. Its going against various plot points, even destroys the fundamental premise of all the games ever played. Just this one I can say clearly: this theory of yours is DEFINITELY wrong. Oh yes, and Erika was the territory lord too, if only for a short while, she too should know how the game-board (=the territory) works. Quote:
what REALLY is serving things thematically is the following: battler in prime was, and Im now almost 100% sure about that, -at least for a while- locked in a room without him knowing how it happened and without him wanting that to happen. and serving things thematically is also that he completely!! understands magic and wants to end the game with ep 6 (as he said to beato then, of course, you'd say he lied again). and its also quite clear what "understanding magic and ending everything" means right? Im sorry, dont take it the wrong way please, but you havent understood uminekos message at all when you say "ultimate magic is about tricking everyone". Actually, you're still at phase 1 of the story, the way battler was or how erika is, when they think of magic is just the way to trick everyone around them really well...thats only superficially what magic is about. we have seen it once before in the games what happens when someone does what battler says he wants to do with dawn, when someone "ends it all"...so its really pretty easy to see what battlers goal was in this 6th game, there is just one way to end everyhing and bring beato out of the game board after all... and what happened in ep 6 was ANYTHING BUT THAT. It went a completely different route. Quote:
but here you're completely right: "Sorcerer Battler serving as a symbolic representation of [...] Kinzo." You do realize that Battler comes to recognize the new Beato as her DAUGHTER? And that is something Kinzo never could do, he forced Beatrices daughter to be beatrice until the very end, when she fell from the cliff. He forced her to be her "old self", a mistake Battler DOESNT make. Battler is repeating the story, but this time, he is doing it THE RIGHT WAY. But wait, if I follow your theory, this is not correct. The scene in the room after battler was mean to beato is just fake after all, he only lied before too, since he already planned for the logic error to happen from the very beginning. So all the talk about accepting the new Beato as Beatos daughter is of course, also just fake...:S so much for "serving things thematically"... Quote:
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and now think about why his very last present for beato is a story! think about why a book has such a big meaning that he made it his last present for beato and you basically have your answer to what he wants to do when he says in ep 6 "im gonna end everything with this game". Ive already written it in a post, but ill repeat it later on again, this post is long enough as it is... Quote:
No, I understood your paradox very well. Its called a paradox for a reason...but really, you cant argue against paradoxes at all. thats why I tried to tell you: "Kanon, though youre spending eternity in a closet, rest assured, you'll be rescued once the bomb explodes." I understand your paradox here, I know you're saying its a paradox and in a way, he will never be rescued. But I wonder if Kanon, having such a good understanding about the fact that they basically live in a book and the basic premises of the world, would think like that. thats why I said I dont find your paradox very convincing. And lets think about it like that: ryukishi gave us this red truth. and he wanted us to be able to understand WHY he gave us this red truth. you really think that he'd want us to "solve" this red truth by applying this paradox????Im asking you here from a really normal reader-author-perspective. Remember,this truth is not something that is said in the middle of the story where he could have made a little "mistake" by not paying attentions to all the details, its a red truth that is shown AFTER THE CREDITS of the very last ???-part of episode 6. if he didnt explicitly! want to, there would have been no reason to show it to us, different from the red truth in ep 4. Im asking you again: Do you HONESTLY think he'd give us this red truth at the end of episode 6, a completely unnecessary!!! red truth, to make us solve it by using one of Zenos paradoxes? why??? just why???? what would be the purpose???Please, answer honestly what you'd think about his story-writing here if that were the case... Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-14 at 15:17. |
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2015-03-14, 14:31 | Link #34935 | ||||||||||||||||
The True Culprit
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So, in line with Beato's magic, all possible results are fine with him, as long as Erika trips atleast one of the traps. Battler can't read Erika's mind or control her actions so there's always the chance that she can do something he doesn't expect, but Erika is, despite everything, a predictable person who wears her personality and her goals on her sleeve, atleast in the Meta-World. And she stated long before the Logic Error that she intended to demonstrate Battler's incompetence. I mean, with all that, it's entirely reasonable to think Battler had a confident chance at tricking her the way he did. The odds were in his favor, even if it wasn't Absolutely Certain. Quote:
Lambdadelta has played dumb on things she knew perfectly well literally countless times. It was one of her established character traits Bernkastel warned the reader about. Quote:
What I mean when I say Erika can't make moves Battler doesn't know about is that, basically, it would all be 'written down' in the hypothetical schema of the story's layout. Battler could ignore what's there and give her privacy and secrecy sure, but as soon as he wants to he can just look as easily as an author looking at the earlier pages in his work. It's the equivalent of thinking you can do secret moves in Dungeons and Dragons; without the Dungeon Master's awareness, nothing you do 'counts'. The fact that Battler allows this secrecy, and gives Erika so many breaks and special handicaps, and doesn't fight with full force during that battle, strongly supports the suggestion that he was intending to get trapped. Quote:
Even if it did, Lambdadelta is Beatrice's sponsor and knows exactly how her magic works (unlike Bern). The prose has consistently established magic as requiring only that you know how to do it, in order to use it. So yea, hypothetically, Lambdadelta could use Beato's magic. That doesn't mean she does, or needs to. Quote:
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A lot of your criticisms against my ideas and your insistence that they're lying to the audience are predicated on the idea that the characters are perfectly rational actors who are never hypocritical or influenced by their own emotions. It also ignores that what Meta-characters seem to know isn't really consistent from episode to episode or scene to scene. The metafictional constructs basically only know what the author needs them to know. Like, just off the top of my head, Chick Beato discussing cold medicine and how reading the label makes it feel like it's working better. Did Chick Beato ever have a cold? How do you even get a cold in the Meta-World? When did she have time to get one and get over it, considering she only existed for a few days? Why wasn't she just cured with magic? Or is she funneling Yasu's/Sayo's memories? Or how about when George and Jessica are sort of meta-aware for the Love Duel, but that awareness seems to stop as soon as the game is concluded? Or how Shannon and Kanon seem to remember other Gameboards but not the meta scenes inbetween, such as the Golden Land sequences? Like, Meta-World characters behave differently from gameboard characters by design and nature. They're more fey and otherworldly and abstract and symbolic, so the Rule of Symbolism governs their actions. Quote:
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Also, see above regarding emotional involvement. Having a plan for how to shape an outcome doesnt' change your visceral emotional responses to things in pursuit of that plan. Quote:
And here you go again with your condescending attitude. You're wrong about what I think or what I'm trying to suggest, as you keep demonstrating in your heated and hostile ramblings. Battler's only official win condition in EP6 is to demonstrate he understand Beato's heart and magic. He can't do that without weaving a sufficient illusion on the gameboard by definition. The Human Side had already won at that point because of EP5, so trying to beat Erika in a magic vs human argument was pretty pointless. It was basically "Prove I know what I'm doing" VS Erika's "Prove he's incompetent and doesn't understand anything." You're also conflating my words. I never said "Ultimate magic is about tricking everyone". However, Beatrice's magic, as she has consistently defined it, is about lying about the process that lead to an outcome, and twisting things so that you're fine with whatever outcome you end up with. This power can be used for good or evil, such as slipping a piece of candy into a child's pocket and telling them a fairy put it there because they were a good child. Quote:
Like, if Bern were satisfied with how things ended up and was being a good sport about things, Battler WOULD have effectively ended everything. He'd of had complete control over his Gameboard and been able to resolve it's final fate however he wished. He could've left things in the catbox, shown the truth to everyone, he could've comforted Ange or he could've stayed with Beatrice forever or whatever. He could've had the 'world'. But Bern had to get some villain points and subvert his authority by appealing to a higher power. Quote:
Similarly, Beatrice's magic (which is probably a mix of black and white the way she used it) was to set herself up as the ultimate evil witch out to kill everyone, and in so doing she took all the evil of Rokkenjima onto herself and made everyone into tragic, but noble heroes in fantasy scenes. She weaved this illusion to try and protect their dignity from the reality of having been the flawed, ugly, sometimes even wicked people they actually were, who were willing to lie, cheat, and possibly even kill for their own personal gain, while fighting over the corpse of their own father like it was a puppet in their contests and rivalries. Beatrice's magic as the Golden Witch basically made herself a sacrificial lamb for all the world's hate and fury and sadness over what happened, and what's how she wanted it...though despite that, she wanted Battler to understand her and see her true self under that. And so Battler's attempted magic here is to create a story that will revive Beatrice (by way of making her think she NEEDS to), and then demonstrating that he understood her true form and everything she did for his sake. The scene where they hold the gun together and share words is the fulfillment of that. The first time that they both understood each other and were able to exist at the same time, side by side, as husband and wife, and silently understood the same truth. Even if no one else saw through the illusion, it was only through this illusion that they believed they could reach this understanding. Quote:
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Last edited by AuraTwilight; 2015-03-14 at 15:22. |
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2015-03-14, 16:30 | Link #34936 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2014
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If Sayotrice is true Battler had to "cut off" (Groom Battler etc.) from Piece-Beato. She would remember her true self. I think it is well explained in the VN with Featherine and Ange or Maria and their pieces. If a game master lose interest in a piece on the game board it "dies", or in other words it dissapears. If they are revived they don't start living from the point they were killed. So if Battler wanted to play some fun love games and he lost his eye on Erikas piece, it happens. |
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2015-03-14, 17:24 | Link #34937 | ||||
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Location: United Kingdom.
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2015-03-14, 17:26 | Link #34938 | |
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I don't have time now to read everything here about the discussion if battler planned the logic error or not but would like to remember that he hintet at that on ep 8 when playing poker with the cousins :
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2015-03-15, 05:38 | Link #34939 | |||||||||
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EP8 basically spells it out what magic in Umineko is: It is learning to accept the truth, and then find a way to construct your life around it. What Battler is doing in EP6 is exactly the same thing that Beato was doing, except that he is shifting blame away from everybody close to him. Looking at Dawn now, it has one very distinct feature that none of the other Episodes feature: Until Erika willingly steps up to become the murderer, there is no culprit, it is just a game. And when Erika becomes the culprit they weave the illusion of the witch around the victims, not the culprit. It is the ultimate present that Battler could think of. Quote:
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Yes, the blood splatter here makes it quite likely this was meant to be Red Truth: There will be no people who were able to survive, when the seagulls cry. But, while it was always meant to imply the passing of the storm, this scene calls into question when this point in time "when the seagulls cry" is supposed to be. It is basically the same as her Red Truth that she "will not allow this story to have a happy ending" which, while true, is not necessarily true for everyone (Ange). Quote:
For me, Sayo doesn't have a crisis of personalities, but of identities. This stems from both her actual identities - Yasuda Sayo and Ushiromiya Lion - being powerless (Sayo) or legaly non-existent (Lion), which forces her to use her work identity Shannon for all her problems. Yet, once she learns that her identity as Shannon might not suffice to fully express her full potential, she constructs other identities to express them. Out of fear of rejection she refuses to grow as one person and instead adds new identities, like tumors, to herself. Quote:
I would say, like I explained above, that Battler's only goal with this story was, to lift the blame from everybody, yet he wasn't above accepting Erika's readiness to become the villain of the play. Quote:
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EP8 largely suggests that Battler/Tohya had never intended to contact Ange and that he had hoped that his stories would do the trick for him. It clearly shows that he hadn't expected the level of frustration and anger that had built in Ange over the years. He is actually revealed to be quite a dick in this one (and his redemption only kind of works, even in the highly editet manga version). Quote:
We only have to make the logical jump and think of the gamemaster being an author again. If you don't prepare your plot accordingly it's forced to run into complications and plot-holes, which then can be abused by readers and critics to interpret your story differently than you wanted them to. Quote:
I also wouldn't read too much into some of the throwaway lines in his interviews, at least not beyond the direct confirmations he gave for his plot ideas. I still think for example, that with this line he wanted to say that men and women act like that in life a lot of times, because they are taught to act like it, but it also drives them unhappy because they forget other important aspects. But maybe that's just me expecting more from an author who actually wrote some quite inspiring characters. |
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2015-03-15, 05:54 | Link #34940 |
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Join Date: Mar 2015
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Some stuff that is not related to the discussions earlier:
Im sorry, if I repeat things you guys already figured out a long time ago, I just did so yesterday and its possible I was really stupid that I didnt realize it right away because its obvious. I might be even more stupid to assume there is someone else that hasnt understood it already but I thought, there MIGHT be someone else who didnt get it like me and in this case, I dont want to keep it to myself. So anyways, when reading episode 6 I always thought: wow, thats awefully convenient for Dlanor and Co. to only check the seals on ONE window and let the other one unsealed. I just accepted it that way. And of course, with this I didnt get Anges comment, when they were blocking the blue to get out of the other window, "Isnt this a logic error on their part?". Once again, Im sorry for repeating stuff you all might have figured out from the beginning. So turns out Dlanor and Co. didnt check any seals on the windows AT ALL. Neither the one in the cousins room nor the one next room over. They only checked the ones in the hall and forgot the windows. So there was not REALLY a logic error, (there wasnt anyways because a trick was possible after all), but they made battler and the others think so. There is always the possibilty to let someone leave from one of the rooms. So if they said in red that both windows are sealed, then it would be them causing the logic error, because THEY would make the game unsolvable by using the red in THEIR turn. thats why they can only use the red maximally for one window - so that there are still pieces that can leave through the window of the next room over. they use their red without having checked the window. when Dlanor "seals" this possibility as well by saying the blue cant be used for this other window, thats when Ange says "isnt that a logic error on their part?" but the window is still unsealed, they cant seal it completely after all, its just that you can not use any blue for now. they wouldnt create a logic error with this, because they dont completely seal the window, they just say we dont accept any more answers regarding this. And beato later on doesnt need the blue truth. in a way, she uses the other closed room after all. Ok, thats all, Im sorry for being stupid XD, I know its really trivial, but I didnt get it until yesterday. Just writing it in case there is someone as slow as me... And because Im already using this post to write random stuff: we know that natsuhi= pride, hideyoshi = gluttony, Rudolph = sloth, Kyrie=envy, Rosa=lust, but I dont know exactly if eva is supposed to be wrath or greed and the same for krauss. cause in ep 3, eva is pretty much greed, but she is also really aggressive sometimes, far more than krauss in my opinion. and krauss is somehow greedy because he wants to keep the family inheritence (at least for a while) to himself, wrath could only fit if we consider his past. Have you discussed this already and came up with an answer? Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-15 at 06:04. |
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