Romance in Macross

[wolfboy]

Originally Posted by abynormal

You know what? I agree with you. I take offense to the "Sherylsheep" remark, but all this artillery coming from both sides of the fence makes it harder to really enjoy the show. I thought fans were supposed to get along with each other via a common interest? Some comments are so venomous I wonder if the poster even enjoys the program at all. It's a fictional story for God's sake. And being a Sheryl fan, the acid coming from certain Ranka fans just makes me like her even less. The only characters we're supposed to hate are the villains!

haha sorry about that remark, got caught up during the moment. It's not directed at normal Sheryl fans anyhow. Those fanatics know who they are!

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by wolfboy

haha sorry about that remark, got caught up during the moment. It's not directed at normal Sheryl fans anyhow. Those fanatics know who they are!

Eh, whatever. <plonk>

[Urei]

Oh, good lord, the last one to say "I love you" will always be the winner in Macorss. Be it male or female.

About the shipping wars, I'm of the mind that extremists do deserve each other.
It's much more fun to relax and have a good time, but I guess some do find it fun. And I have to admit I sometimes amuse myself with some of the more heated exchanges...

Can't agree more BetoJR. I on the contrary enjoy the extremely long posts followed by a much shorter and compact reply to all the topics. Long time ago when Evangelion was on the lose people created, not wrote but created ice berg posts overflowing with letters and pictures. Some even reached symbol limit... twice in one statement. That was fun to skip

[Mughi]

Originally Posted by Urei

... Long time ago when Evangelion was on the lose people created, not wrote but created ice berg posts overflowing with letters and pictures. Some even reached symbol limit... twice in one statement. That was fun to skip

And look how THAT show turned out! LOL! I'd enjoy seeing all of the exploding heads on the boards if Kawamori had the guts to pull an Anno on us...

[Mughi]

Now that I've read the subs, I'm back to the "no sex" stance, regardless of the jacket position... It would have been really sad, angsty, and possibly lousy pity sex. The kiss, yes... I'll agree to the kiss, but the horizontal hoopla, no... not so much. I think its a red herring.

As for the problematic position Alto finds himself in at the end, I'm inclined to think that he's frustrated that he's now in a box with his proclamation to Sheryl that he'll stay by her side. Not because he regrets it, or isn't willing to carry it through, but because he's now trapped on Frontier, in a military unit he didn't sign on for, flying a plane he didn't train for, supporting a politician that others in his SMS family have all abandoned and is utterly unable to exercise the option to "go get Ranka back" as he'd previously intended... whatever his reasons for doing so.

I also think that Alto still hasn't completely worked out his feelings for Ranka and Sheryl. He's not "loving" Sheryl completely. He's doing the next best thing to saving her... He's dedicated to keeping her from despondency due to loneliness. That's not quite the same thing and IS grounded in some level of pity. Given the option, and barring knowing about Sheryl's illness, I DO believe he''d have liked to go after Ranka if only to better understand her (or at all, since he's been so disengaged emotionally) and her motivations in leaving... Its a bit of a conundrum...

[solothurn]

I don't agree it's all pity, Mughi. While I do agree there *might* be pity in Alto's actions, I doubt pity alone is enough for him to cup her face in such a way like that, with such a look. (before the kiss) Either way, we'll see, since the upcoming ep seems to be Alto-centric.

Nevertheless, please wear your flame-retardant suit coupled with bullet-proof vest now, Mughi.

[sekidousai]

here you can borrow my ogre helmet too ^^

[MaiHikari]

Originally Posted by Mughi

Now that I've read the subs, I'm back to the "no sex" stance, regardless of the jacket position... It would have been really sad, angsty, and possibly lousy pity sex. The kiss, yes... I'll agree to the kiss, but the horizontal hoopla, no... not so much. I think its a red herring.

Why would it be pity sex if she loves her? Your position assumes there was no love in what he feels for her, and it's a huge assumption considering their developments so far.

As for the problematic position Alto finds himself in at the end, I'm inclined to think that he's frustrated that he's now in a box with his proclamation to Sheryl that he'll stay by her side. Not because he regrets it, or isn't willing to carry it through, but because he's now trapped on Frontier, in a military unit he didn't sign on for, flying a plane he didn't train for, supporting a politician that others in his SMS family have all abandoned and is utterly unable to exercise the option to "go get Ranka back" as he'd previously intended... whatever his reasons for doing so.

His "go get Ranka back" was said to Luca, after he tested weapons to kill the vajra and before he made his promise to Sheryl. So he made the promise, regardless of Ranka. This shows that getting Ranka back is not really that high of a priority on his list. At least, we can see that killing vajra > getting Ranka and being with Sheryl > getting Ranka. We don't see him rushing into his VF to go after Ranka right after she left. There was no sense of urgency in trying to get her back.

If we think about Ozma's words and Alto's desire to fly, we can deduct what was important to him at that time. What made him decide to be a pilot in episode 1 is really the Vajra. Before, when Frontier was peaceful, there was nothing he had to protect. But when the Vajra started attacking and he saw people were dying right before his eyes, he had to do something about it. This desire to protect really sprouted from his inability to protect his mother from her death. And as we saw, he links Sheryl more to his mother. At the beginning, he was protecting everyone. But in the end, he found the woman he wanted to protect in Sheryl.

The "damn it!" scream at the end of ep 22 wasn't because he lost to Ozma or because he can't go fetch Ranka. It was because Ozma, Brera, and Mikhail found ways to protect their women but Alto couldn't protect Sheryl no matter how hard he tries. It's his own frustration being unable to do anything but sit in the sideline and watch the woman he loves die.

I also think that Alto still hasn't completely worked out his feelings for Ranka and Sheryl. He's not "loving" Sheryl completely. He's doing the next best thing to saving her... He's dedicated to keeping her from despondency due to loneliness. That's not quite the same thing and IS grounded in some level of pity. Given the option, and barring knowing about Sheryl's illness, I DO believe he''d have liked to go after Ranka if only to better understand her (or at all, since he's been so disengaged emotionally) and her motivations in leaving... Its a bit of a conundrum...

That's pure speculation as we haven't been shown he was so emotionally disturbed by Ranka's departure in ep 22, except for the gar screaming at the end of ep 21. He did call her and idiot and he's still against the vajra without a doubt. So he still believes she's wrong without thinking too deeply in the matter.

[Mughi]

Originally Posted by solothurn

I don't agree it's all pity, Mughi. While I do agree there *might* be pity in Alto's actions, I doubt pity alone is enough for him to cup her face in such a way like that, with such a look. (before the kiss) Either way, we'll see, since the upcoming ep seems to be Alto-centric.

Nevertheless, please wear your flame-retardant suit coupled with bullet-proof vest now, Mughi.

LOL... I didn't mean to imply that its ALL pity. Just that pity was amongst the driving factors in the moment.

When I watched the raw, it looked like recognition of his love for Sheryl. But in the context of the conversation... well, it was a different implication. To ME, the look in his eyes was concern over someone dear to him, hurting deeply and didn't say "I love you and will stand by to the end of your life, no matter what" as I'd thought, but instead, "I see what you've been brought to by this disease. I understand your pain, because I've been here before (with his mother), and I will stand by you until the end." She asks for his courage, to keep on singing, and he answers with a kiss of assurrance. It's love, care and pity for her situation. But more than that, I think he FINALLY respects her.

...and thanks for the warning about the Nomex jacket. I sadly rather expect problems with the shippers here and will be really impressed if I DON'T get pounced on.

[Mughi]

Originally Posted by MaiHikari

Why would it be pity sex if she loves her? Your position assumes there was no love in what he feels for her, and it's a huge assumption considering their developments so far....

Thanks for your 2¢ Mai. I duly note your position, but don't concede to all of it. Nor to I intend on arguing it further since it's all been said before.

I'm going to wait and see now.

[TwilightHack]

Originally Posted by MaiHikari

The "damn it!" scream at the end of ep 22 wasn't because he lost to Ozma or because he can't go fetch Ranka. It was because Ozma, Brera, and Mikhail found ways to protect their women but Alto couldn't protect Sheryl no matter how hard he tries. It's his own frustration being unable to do anything but sit in the sideline and watch the woman he loves die.

The rest of your post was great, just wanted to point out a weak point I'd hate to see be pounce on later.

Normally I wouldn't disagree with you but as much as I am a Sheryl fan/shipper, I'd like to point out there's a lot of speculation going into this particular part of your statement.

We don't should to know what is going on in that particular moment especially after the Ranka flashback. We do know he's frustrated... but about what? We'll find out next episode when he makes up his mind about things.

[Urei]

Originally Posted by MaiHikari

If we think about Ozma's words and Alto's desire to fly, we can deduct what was important to him at that time. What made him decide to be a pilot in episode 1 is really the Vajra. Before, when Frontier was peaceful, there was nothing he had to protect. But when the Vajra started attacking and he saw people were dying right before his eyes, he had to do something about it. This desire to protect really sprouted from his inability to protect his mother from her death. And as we saw, he links Sheryl more to his mother. At the beginning, he was protecting everyone. But in the end, he found the woman he wanted to protect in Sheryl.

Yes, thats basically the basis of his dilema.

The "damn it!" scream at the end of ep 22 wasn't because he lost to Ozma or because he can't go fetch Ranka. It was because Ozma, Brera, and Mikhail found ways to protect their women but Alto couldn't protect Sheryl no matter how hard he tries. It's his own frustration being unable to do anything but sit in the sideline and watch the woman he loves die.

I wouldn't give him the credit for that just yet. In my opinion his inability to do anything at this moment is still a question of the right set of priorities. He's still in front of the most important decision in his life. We can speculate that Ranka may not be near the top of this 'soon to be complete' list but she surely is there.

My point is that until we see his true choice in "True Begin" we can only assume that he takes Sheryl into consideration as much as we want to. If my prediction will come true then he will end up saving Sheryl. Ranka already has many knights in shining VF's.

[Teletha]

I DO believe he''d have liked to go after Ranka if only to better understand her (or at all, since he's been so disengaged emotionally) and her motivations in leaving... Its a bit of a conundrum...

He had the chance to go after her already. He seems pretty happy to still kill the vajra against her wishes. I don't think he's trying to understand her at all. He's going to go "get her back" but really made no move to.

I just don't see how people think Sheryl has him trapped on Frontier and he wants to go with SMS and to find Ranka. When he got the text message he didn't seem thrilled with the idea or ready to listen to them. He's frustrated right now by a lot of things, but people hoping Sheryl is going to be the one holding him back are going to be disappointed.

[Mughi]

Originally Posted by Teletha

...I just don't see how people think Sheryl has him trapped on Frontier and he wants to go with SMS and to find Ranka. When he got the text message he didn't seem thrilled with the idea or ready to listen to them. He's frustrated right now by a lot of things, but people hoping Sheryl is going to be the one holding him back are going to be disappointed.

HE has himself trapped on Frontier. Not Sheryl. It is HIS promise that binds him. She no longer acts like she has a tether on him as she pretended in the beginning.

I stand by my statements until we're shown something different. Sorry! And so far, I've been nothing but impressed at MF... so I don't expect any disappointment at all...

[TwilightHack]

Originally Posted by Mughi

When I watched the raw, it looked like recognition of his love for Sheryl. But in the context of the conversation... well, it was a different implication. To ME, the look in his eyes was concern over someone dear to him, hurting deeply and didn't say "I love you and will stand by to the end of your life, no matter what" as I'd thought, but instead, "I see what you've been brought to by this disease. I understand your pain, because I've been here before (with his mother), and I will stand by you until the end." She asks for his courage, to keep on singing, and he answers with a kiss of assurrance. It's love, care and pity for her situation. But more than that, I think he FINALLY respects her.

You have a good and different analysis from what's widely accepted as "truth" among most people here. It's nice.

But here's my thoughts. (It's not flames, just my PoV.)

Perhaps Alto did go to see Sheryl that day with pity, care, and concern... to comfort her because of her situation. I wouldn't doubt it at all seeing the way Alto entered the room telling her its okay not to sing and force herself to laugh. It's normal for someone to comfort another like that, especially in a situation like hers. Honestly though, I don't think the situation remained that way.

I say this because as soon as Shery's mask dropped and tears began to fall, Alto's entire demeanor changed. You can tell he was surprised by look in his eyes. After all, this was a side of Sheryl he'd never seen before. Gone was the strong, albeit arrogant, proud woman he knew. In her place was a broken woman, admitting to having nothing left to live for but her songs.

From there on, I HIGHLY doubt it was out of pity that Alto grabbed hold of her; I HIGHLY doubt it was out of pity he pledged to stay by her side; I HIGHLY doubt it was out of pity he held her face in his hand a brushed away her tears.

From my PoV that was just pure, raw emotion... caring, not pity, and perhaps something more. All sealed by a kiss (again maybe more) and a beautifully done camera pan up to preserve the intimacy of the act(s).

Originally Posted by Mughi

Now that I've read the subs, I'm back to the "no sex" stance, regardless of the jacket position... It would have been really sad, angsty, and possibly lousy pity sex. The kiss, yes... I'll agree to the kiss, but the horizontal hoopla, no... not so much. I think its a red herring.

Sex or no sex, it may have been pity coming into the scene... but in my eyes, there was no pity leaving it.

That's just my own 2 cents anyway.

[Mughi]

Originally Posted by TwilightHack

You have a good and different analysis from what's widely accepted as "truth" among most people here. It's nice.

But here's my thoughts. (It's not flames, just my PoV.)...

Thank you for the civility.

I suppose that to me, it's not a case of ONLY pity, or pity BECAME love, or ONLY caring... its all of it. I agree with your statements that it was a step by step process of walls coming down and emotions flowing out, but it seems to me that a growing consensus here is that Alto suddenly saw the light in Sheryl's eyes and went lovey dovey, sexy, sexy. On viewing it over and over to really GET it, I've come to understand its all of it at one time.

Does he love her? I say yes. Sure! But only in a cursory undertone kind of way. He loves her, but isn't yet "IN" love with her. As a symbol of this, we not only have Alto's actions, and looks, but the very calm and quiet Nishikigoi in the pond. For those who are unaware, Koi means love and is also the name of the type of fish in the pond. It's a common plot indicator to place jumping koi in a scene at the moment of recognition of love. Here we see them softly under the surface, not emerging in the symbolic "moment of insemination" action. (which doesn't mean he got her pregnant, but that a great state of change has very suddenly occurred, and something new is beginning.)

We also KNOW that he is aware of her illness as evidenced all over the episode, and is at the house out of concern and care for her. (And for all the hair splitters, we know THIS because he concerns himself with her and cares for her... ) She spills her emotional guts out finally and he reacts in a way that indicates all of it... a pity for her situation, his care for her as a friend in need, his determination to not leave her to die alone and do his best to support where he cannot save, the same as happened with his Mother... and under all of this, to love her.

If you've ever been a guy faced with a girl in your arms, bawling her eyes out because she's doing her level best to survive an emotional roller coaster ride... getting down and "doing it" is a long way from kissing with compassion.

And now I'm going to try to shut up again, because I'm rehashing when I said I wouldn't.

[TwilightHack]

Originally Posted by Mughi

If you've ever been a guy faced with a girl in your arms, bawling her eyes out because she's doing her level best to survive an emotional roller coaster ride... getting down and "doing it" is a long way from kissing with compassion.

I agree. I originally was on a stance of "no sex." But after the endless implications came in it's been pretty hard (for me) to think otherwise.

In any case I don't mind either way because regardless of everything, their scene WAS a very touching moment. Whether or not they did the deed doesn't take away from the powerful emotions driving the scene.

[Teletha]

Originally Posted by Mughi

HE has himself trapped on Frontier. Not Sheryl. It is HIS promise that binds him. She no longer acts like she has a tether on him as she pretended in the beginning.

I stand by my statements until we're shown something different. Sorry! And so far, I've been nothing but impressed at MF... so I don't expect any disappointment at all...

But, he made NO move to go after her BEFORE he knew about Sheryl or said the promise to her. He was just excited to try out new weapons to kill the very things Ranka wanted to protect. His "get her back" was bullshit since his actions spoke volumes. He didn't trust or believe in her. I just see no indication that he is trying to understand Ranka at all or that he wants to go after her and find out about the vajra. I think the sms leaving might actually lead to him trying to figure things out though.

So I stand by my statements that he's not trapped at all He'll have to decide what he has to do, and I think Sheryl will understand when he does.

[kilroy0097]

Alto is projecting his mother's sickness and death onto Sheryl with her illness and future inevitable death. To Alto, Sheryl's future death mimics his mothers and hence his feelings for Sheryl are double fold. Whatever feelings he had for Sheryl before are now amplified.

Then he also made a promise.

So it's a double whammy. He's stuck on Frontier unless some kind of miracle changes his mind.

[Seifall]

Originally Posted by indr0008

so she DID ditch frontier......

More seriously,( yes ...) ....