2010-06-22, 17:55 | Link #11441 | ||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Although, if Shannon is Beatrice, I very much doubt that the personality shown to us in the game is any use in determining her POV. Actually, I have a question for you. Whose POV do you consider the Krauss/Goat-kun fight to be taking place from? Quote:
Or they're Krauss. Note the extreme difference in characterization between Ep1 and Ep5. Or hell, Ep4. Last edited by Tyabann; 2010-06-22 at 18:08. |
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2010-06-22, 18:17 | Link #11442 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
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If we had to pick people for EP4 George and Jessica fights, I'd pick the opposite person for each scene.
For example, Oliver said George looked like a dictator, ruler. The ones who know they are in power and are not afraid to use that power. I'd say Jessica was the one who could view George as that, maybe unconsciously. As for an opposite, Jessica's fight with Ronove? She seemed stubborn even in defeat. She's the type that will fight even Demon Lords even if she has no chance. I'd say that could be George's opinion of Jessica. In other words, each of them know the difficulty of facing off with each other for the headship. How about that? 8) |
2010-06-22, 18:43 | Link #11443 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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The idea is to watch all scenes for sign of this. It's not that magic scenes are subjective, it's that all scenes are subjective and some of them are magical because they are subjective and use the point of view that prefers to see magic.
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Not even Natsuhi would think of Krauss in this particular way, what she likes about him is definitely not that. Note that while in Battler's presence Jessica says she has zero respect for her parents, she's a tsundere through and through, and offscreen, in TIPS in particular, is shown to be seeing them in a very positive light. If any other character would be interpreting Jessica's actions, they would not see her as gentle to her parents, (as she apparently doesn't do that in public) so I would take in particular the Mother's Day TIPS as a benchmark. It's complicated. Clearly hereditary mental disorders do exist, (bipolar disorder for example is hereditary with environmental triggers that develop it) and asking if you have any mental disorders in the family is the first thing a psychiatrist does, but causes of schizophrenia in particular can be varied, and heredity is currently only thought to be one of a multitude of contributing factors. The very definition of schizophrenia is currently being put into question, as it's essentially an umbrella term for a lot of loosely connected and very different problems which have very little in common across the entire body of people diagnosed as schizophrenic. And the DID/MPD is not part of the diagnostic criteria for it either. I'm pretty sure that whatever mental disorder history the Ushiromiya family has, schizophrenia it ain't. But, to actually see the world as something pretty and colourful, being schizophrenic and even having a mental disorder is not required, desperately wanting to is often enough.
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2010-06-22, 18:45 | Link #11444 |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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That actually makes sense. The problem remains the whole weak point of Editor Theory - if the Gamemaster is not allowed to mix magic into the viewpoint of a character, they have to believe in magic to see anything magical, which limits things a lot.
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2010-06-22, 19:08 | Link #11445 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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As for who would have a magic point of view. George seems to be hinted to have some occult interests or his own sources about it. So he has some knowledge about the occult. Jessica doesn't seem to beleive in that kind of thing though. She rebukes those ideas far more than George does.
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2010-06-22, 19:19 | Link #11446 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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The Ep2 magic-world TIPS go into great detail about Kinzo's "black blood", and how Maria is the strongest inheritor of the blood in the whole family. Kinzo and Maria are presented as the most delusional characters in the story. A connection? |
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2010-06-22, 19:22 | Link #11447 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Quote:
While the idea that it is allowed to play several points of view simultaneously may be equivalent to what you just described, it complicates analysis a lot.
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2010-06-22, 19:34 | Link #11448 |
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Join Date: May 2007
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In other words, it's a hypothetical limitation that explains the co-existence of fantasy and non-fantasy scenes.
The explanation is that the GM cannot create scenes themselves; only harvest them from observer viewpoints. Without this we were at a loss to explain why the GM sometimes represented a scene so fantastically, sometimes so normally. We were coming up to the answer of, "because he/she felt like it," so it was a bit unsatisfying. This theory IS somewhat in line with what we've been told about how magic works (or at least what Beatrice discovered about magic) that it requires an observer. And that observer is frequently Maria; but... it could be other people too! By the way, this is a bit interesting. In the story, the GM is presented as near omniscient. But on the higher level with the Author theory we know the author can't be omniscient; in fact she/they are missing some vital pieces of info, or wants to reservere some kind of 'surprise' for us. So, I think we've seen some of this play out; the GM looks like they're omniscient but is prevented from presenting some info because of the Author's interest. For example, the count of people always being "No more than..." was some kind of reserve surprise the author held in check. Both the Author Theory author and Ryukishi had to do this. Also, I think why Battler ended up not stating everyone's name in the neighbouring room and Erika had to switch it to 'Everyone else' had more than just Erika vs. Battler implications. I suspect an Author-level surprise coming there. 8) |
2010-06-22, 19:39 | Link #11449 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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2010-06-22, 19:43 | Link #11450 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
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You know, some of us have already severely underestimated him before, missing out on vital clues in the EP2 OP where he specifically told us there are no Dine rules but there are Knox rules... ;__; I will not underestimate him again. |
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2010-06-22, 19:43 | Link #11451 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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A bit more seriously, no idea. Maria's symptoms, if she has any actual disorder, (which I doubt) are of an autistic spectrum disorder, and they aren't very pronounced. Kinzo only clear symptoms are being quite sociopathic and subtly paranoid, which aren't even close, and are not sufficiently pronounced to get him a diagnosis either.
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2010-06-22, 19:55 | Link #11452 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Quote:
Whether it is possible to use two viewpoints simultaneously in a single scene, I'm not sure, but quick-jumping between them would in many cases work to conceal things, and be a sign of something fishy going on, as you've noted.
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2010-06-22, 19:56 | Link #11453 | ||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Quote:
The narrator jumping may serve a purpose yet, as you say. Quote:
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2010-06-22, 20:12 | Link #11454 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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2010-06-22, 20:29 | Link #11455 | |
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There's like no other mention of mirrors on the island, someone said, right? So... the idea that a mirror was used, maybe it's significant? Cuz I haven't seen any one come up with an explanation regarding the mirrors yet... but they've been featured in several scenes in EP2, EP3 (I think) and EP6 already. |
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2010-06-22, 20:30 | Link #11456 |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Sorry, backtracking back to Kinzo's corpse -- mostly for the record.
In Ep5, when Lambda challenges Battler to explain the scene of Kinzo in the rose garden that is dated at 5th October 1985, first Lambda says that Kinzo is already dead, which is ok, but then Battler rephrases it as Grandfather is dead at this point in time. Since, as far as we know, red timing follows the timing of the displayed in-game scene to which red refers in context, that rephrasing unambiguously dates Kinzo's corpse to before the 5th October 1985 and the idea of Kinzo's corpse being recent is in this way prevented in red. Guess we really need to figure out why the hell did they keep the body around for a year, then.
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2010-06-22, 20:35 | Link #11457 | |
Mystery buff
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Don't think it was mentioned in ep3 though.
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2010-06-22, 20:40 | Link #11458 | |
Back off, I'm a scientist
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
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Quote:
Maria's diary is called a "mirror of heart as it is", (notice that in Ep5, Erika goes for Natsuhi's diaries which are kept in the same dresser as her spirit mirror) but no other mirrors are mentioned in the currently translated Umineko, period. P.S. Natsuhi's mirror is "10cm in diameter", so not too tiny.
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2010-06-22, 21:23 | Link #11459 | |
Ace Detective
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: MIA
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This sheds quite a bit of doubt on those two lovely ladies, Shannon and Jessica. Shannon for the obvious horse related reasons, and Jessica because while she certainly may not have been madly in love with him, she was apparently the first one on the island to find out that he was coming back. Oh, and may I add, it also makes it far less probable that Jessica was successfully fooled by Krauss and Natsuhi's Weekend at Bernie's stunt. Intially, the theory that Kinzo died briefly before the incident made me accept that perhaps they simply fooled her for a week, but now that it's a year, in addition to the possible Shkanon stuff, Jessica may very well be crazy herself if she doesn't know. Last edited by Sentou; 2010-06-22 at 21:38. |
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2010-06-22, 21:39 | Link #11460 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Quote:
Until Krauss' businesses succeeded, it wasn't safe to reveal Kinzo's death, and so... My only question is where the body went during Ep5. Was Natsuhi really crazy enough to keep it under her bed? |
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