[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Benkai_Debussy]

Ma-rion, to be honest you're kind of crossing over into schizophrenia logic (in the sense that you're assuming literally everything must have some deeper meaning and coming up with a bunch of bizarre connections between things that don't make much sense).

Umineko is a story that is told in a unique way, but fundamentally it is not a very complex story. It is just the story of Sayo Yasuda and the Ushiromiya family by proxy. The core of the story (the "without love it cannot be seen" stuff) is related to the fact that the story won't make sense unless you try to empathize with the characters.

[Ma-rion]

Originally Posted by Benkai_Debussy

Ma-rion, to be honest you're kind of crossing over into schizophrenia logic (in the sense that you're assuming literally everything must have some deeper meaning and coming up with a bunch of bizarre connections between things that don't make much sense).

Umineko is a story that is told in a unique way, but fundamentally it is not a very complex story. It is just the story of Sayo Yasuda and the Ushiromiya family by proxy. The core of the story (the "without love it cannot be seen" stuff) is related to the fact that the story won't make sense unless you try to empathize with the characters.

Hello Benkai_Debussy,

I assure you, I'm not schizophrenic (yet) :S. This is of course my personal perspective, when I say the following, I don't want to force my solution on anyone!!: you' re wrong. This is not a story about Sayo, and "without love it cannot be seen" doesn't only translate to emphasizing with someone.

And it IS complex, since Umineko is, at its core, a logic puzzle. For example: there is a riddle about liars, that starts right at the beginning of Episode 1, there is a riddle about "coins", one is about the wolf and the sheep. And there is a story about a "duel".

The "without love it cannot be seen" is MUCH MORE direct, and far less "ekkjgdjsdfekjrglgdnkdjn" than what you make it out to be. It simply means this:

Spoiler:

Throughout the story, we look at the family through the eyes of different characters (->"portraits"). Every character has his or her own "truth", which is why we have different stories to begin with. The last story is for example seen together with "Eva-Beatrice".

The single element of the world is LOVE. If, let's say, we look through Eva's eyes and Eva had no love for Krauss, then Krauss couldn't be seen. If we looked through Kyrie's eyes and Kyrie had no love for, let's say, Battler, then Battler couldn't be seen etc. There is always a person present in Umineko who cannot be seen and who has no body. There are certain riddles where you have to figure out whose perspective that is and who is missing. Often those scenes are accompanied by sentences like "We all had gathered in the room." "Everyone had already come back.", "All the relatives are here." etc.

If you make those perspectives converge, you find the truth behind Beato's games. There IS a "real truth", but this one can only be seen if you look at it with "one eye denying and one eye believing". That means: you need a character who has love and you need a character who has no love. At that moment, two worlds will overlap (remember George's riddle in Episode 8, where there are three "George's": a beautiful picture of him, an ugly one and the normal person himself).
Featherine Episode 6 to Ange: "It is with you, that I can see the truth for the first time. Please, let what you see overlap with what I see." Or to Bern:"I want to check answers." Simply put: Featherine has love (said several times), Ange has not. Thus Featherine can see the truth together with Ange if Ange looks at the "picture book" and tells her what she sees ("reads the story to her out loud"). And here the same applies: Episode 6/7: Featherine has love, Bern plays for her the role of the character who has no love. Thus Featherine can "check answers" together with Bern.

Sadly though, you as the reader, are not shown the story from Featherine's perspective but from Ange's or Bern's (which is important). This means, you solved nothing and only swallowed what Bern prepared to "confuse those who still haven't understood Beato's real form." The "red truth" only affects one world: the one without love. Yasu's story has therefore half of the truth cut away (though I'd say it's even more).

And then there's the whole Tsubasa Reservoir Chronicle-thing going on, the TV show from which Maria took the name "Sakura".

If we think that the story is mystery, with Sayo being a schizophrenic culprit who murdered everyone because of her body, then we've been fooled by Beato. On purpose.

(If you want to, I can send a link with some explanations, but if you want to only stick to Yasu's story, that's also fine ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

[marianx]

i don't know if this is the right place to post, but can someone that is fluent in japanese help me contact ryukishi. i have a few questions id like to discuss , im willing to pay comission for someone to translate.

[Lila]

Before answering: Hello everyone, I just registered on this forum even though it's been a while that Umineko has finished. Sadly, in recent years, I had to "forget" about it a bit because of work. Because of some coincidence, I rediscovered my love for the story and I am now registering for the first time on this forum.

@Marion

I have reached a somewhat similar conclusion, though there are still some parts I'd want to discuss. I have also found a part of what they would call the real "truth". If you haven't seen it yourself yet - you will certainly be interested in this!

I mainly registered here in order to share this with someone. So if you like to, I can send you the file.

[Ezorde]

Hello everyone, I'm currently playing the novel a second time (Already did about two years ago) and there is something bugging me that I did not notice the first time, since Umineko is hard to understand when you first discover it.

In Episode 5, Beatrice is supposed to be a doll who lost her will to fight. This is Beatrice outside the game board.

Beatrice has no influence on the game board. Only Bern and Lambda do.

However there are some moments in Episode 5 where you can see Beatrice talking with Ronove and Gaap. What's up with that ?

Are they simply pieces ? But in this case, how are they aware that Bern and Lambda are controlling the game board ? (Here's a screenshot I just take)

They have knowledge of what is outside the game board, despite being pieces. Am I forgetting something ?

[AuraTwilight]

Yea, the magic characters tend to be aware of things regardless, just like Shannon and Kanon always had some awareness.

[Ezorde]

I see, thank you for clarifying this for me.

I'd like to propose a theory to all of you, I don't have much evidences but I think it's worth listening to.

This is common knowledge, but I'll repeat it. (No red, sorry ) Genji is the vessel of Ronove, and Kumasawa, the vessel of Virgilia.

The seven sisters have vessels as well, which are of course, the servants from the Fukuin house.

However there is one person who doesn't have a vessel. It's Gaap.

A lot of people have accepted this fact, thinking that it was not important, but I don't feel the same. It's easy to create a new character based on an old character. But creating a new character out of nowhere, that's much harder. Gaap seems really out of place.

Well, I'm here to tell you that I think I just found her vessel.

Could it be the servant who died 19 years ago ?

I know that Sayo was young at that time, and that it would be quite hard to remember her, but bear with me for a bit.

What is Gaap's ability ? She can create gaps at will. She uses them to make people fall.

Fall. The servant, along with Sayo, fell from a cliff, and died.

Not only this, but whenever Gaap creates a gap, it's to move someone, whether this person is alive or dead.

In the fight with George, she does this to create distance. But that was a simple exception, the rest of the time, she uses her gaps to make the corpses dissapear.

The servant who died was ordered by Natsuhi to move the baby away from her, as she didn't want to hear it cry.

We now have two links between Gaap and the servant.

At the end of Episode 5, Natsuhi points out that this servant was a woman. She then proceeds to use the pronoun "She/her" multiple time, and also talks about her husband. At the very least, I am right about the sex.

Beatrice said that a vessel was extremely convienient but not needed when she talked about Sakutaro in Episode 3. So I do believe that's it's possible for Gaap to exist without a vessel, but just in case...

[AuraTwilight]

It's a neat idea I wouldn't contest, though if Ryukishi meant it he probably would've drawn the servant.

More likely, Gaap's 'vessel' is the phenomenon of misplacing objects and being unable to find them.

[Ezorde]

There's no doubt that this is the reason why she was born, but it doesn't give an explanation for her appearance, that's why I thought that maybe there was more behind her birth.

[AuraTwilight]

Yasu could have provided that herself; Our Confession confirms she's actually a pretty good and creative artist, but needs assistance for things like lore and backstory.

[NicoKenji]

Uhm, finished Umineko a while ago (so good, omfg) and I have some doubts. One, actually.

Spoiler:

why did Sayo put so much effort in being all cruel and stuff in her game with Battler? If she wanted him to know the truth so bad, wouldn't it be so much easier to not fake the cruelty? Am I missing something? :x

[AuraTwilight]

It was a mix of two desires; she wanted him to remember without being told, betting on that one in quadrillion miracle, and she felt a bit bitter of how she 'tortured' him through not coming back.

[Ezorde]

I have once read a theory somewhere around the internet, regarding Tohya's origins.

The person said he believed Tohya could be the personification of the message bottles, rather than an actual human being.

The evidences for this would be the following :

-Tohya almost drowned, but miraculously survived. The bottles were thrown into the ocean, but miraculously reached the coast.

-Tohya doesn't have full memory of what happened "on that day". The bottles caught water and part of what was written disappeared. (Ink doesn't like water)


Does this looks convincing or plausible to anybody ? Sorry if this is pretty famous, I tend to think of Umineko alone rather than with other people, so beside Rosatrice, I don't know a lot of alternate theories.

[AuraTwilight]

That's a new idea that has a lot of allegorical appeal, I will admit. I like it.

[Lila]

Hey everyone, I wanted to point out a few contradictions to you guys. There is an explanation for them, which is exactly why I wanted to mention them here too. I don't mean to critizise the game

1) Ange Episode 4: "I don't know why you are not Asumu's child, but it doesn't matter that to you, she was a mother right?"
Ange Episode 8: "In the future, it was well known that Rudolf had switched the babies."
followed by the comment: "It's no wonder she knew about it."

2)Kyrie Episode 4: "I'm sorry, in the past I treated you badly, just because I thought Asumu was your mother. "
Ange Episode 6: "That's why I was so shocked. She never showed her feelings on the outside."
Rudolf Episode 7 about Battler: "Kyrie, he likes you so much." (or something along those lines)

3) Episode 8 Bern in red: "Natsuhi's room was immediately sealed after they discovered the corpses." "The seals will definitely not break."
Battler Episode 8: "After murdering Natsuhi, the parent couldn't leave the room."
Later in the garden (-that is: outside said room - ), Rudolf: "Sticking the pen into her pure throat, that was a real masterpiece."

[Mali]

Originally Posted by Lila

3) Episode 8 Bern in red: "Natsuhi's room was immediately sealed after they discovered the corpses." "The seals will definitely not break."
Battler Episode 8: "After murdering Natsuhi, the parent couldn't leave the room."
Later in the garden (-that is: outside said room - ), Rudolf: "Sticking the pen into her pure throat, that was a real masterpiece."

Hi,
in a post of http://ramblingsofthegoldenwitch.tumblr.com/ someone pointed out how the parent can escape without locking him/herself up in that room:if the child culprit lied to the servants that they should lock up Natsuhi's room without even noticing that 2 corpses are in that room. That creates other possibilities of culprits, too.
However it's not hinted in Bern's game, but Battler's solution in the manga uses unhinted actions like Battler made Krauss+Natsuhi open the door.

[Lila]

Originally Posted by Mali

Hi,
in a post of http://ramblingsofthegoldenwitch.tumblr.com/ someone pointed out how the parent can escape without locking him/herself up in that room:if the child culprit lied to the servants that they should lock up Natsuhi's room without even noticing that 2 corpses are in that room. That creates other possibilities of culprits, too.
However it's not hinted in Bern's game, but Battler's solution in the manga uses unhinted actions like Battler made Krauss+Natsuhi open the door.

Thank you. I have to admit though, sadly, I do not yet understand these explanations. I'd be happy if you could maybe add a few details?

[Mali]

Original posts:
http://ramblingsofthegoldenwitch.tum...join-after-the
and
http://ramblingsofthegoldenwitch.tum...p-with-rudolph

It's the same question you asked here.

For example, we use Battler as the culprit child and Rudolph as the 'culprit of the first twilight who killed six people'.
After Rudolph killed the two people in Natsuhi's room, he left the room unlocked.
Battler told the servants (they stayed as a group in that time) to lock the door. He could told them something like this: Battler had a talk with Natsuhi and Krauss in that room and after he left, he noticed no 'lock click'. Worrying about this, the servant should lock the door for real using the master key but not 'distrubing' (the dead) couple. The trick is simnilar to the trick Natsuhi and Krauss were pulling on the siblings to prevent them to speak/meet with Kinzo.

Battler (or culprit x) could just order the servants to do that.
Notice the trick could be also used on the 1st twilight. It just require a servant who don't tell he/she lock the door because he/she didn't remember it or feared to be suspected.

I think Ryukishi had in mind that nobody than the culprit is responsible for the construction of the closed rooms. The rule 'non-culprit characters do not cooperate with the culprit' seems to prohibit it. Manga-Battler states to the rule: no secret agreements and accomplices, no covering up and giving alibis to the culprit. Also, in the blue truth he used Battler as a aid to let Rudolph in Natsuhi's room (they would not Rudolph in if he tried it ). Therefore the author kept the rule intact if the non-culprit character does not know the true intentions of the culprit.
In other words: The culprit can use innocent characters as aids if they think nothing is suspicous, that's the premise.

[Lila]

Originally Posted by Mali

Original posts:
http://ramblingsofthegoldenwitch.tum...join-after-the
and
http://ramblingsofthegoldenwitch.tum...p-with-rudolph

It's the same question you asked here.

For example, we use Battler as the culprit child and Rudolph as the 'culprit of the first twilight who killed six people'.
After Rudolph killed the two people in Natsuhi's room, he left the room unlocked.
Battler told the servants (they stayed as a group in that time) to lock the door. He could told them something like this: Battler had a talk with Natsuhi and Krauss in that room and after he left, he noticed no 'lock click'. Worrying about this, the servant should lock the door for real using the master key but not 'distrubing' (the dead) couple. The trick is simnilar to the trick Natsuhi and Krauss were pulling on the siblings to prevent them to speak/meet with Kinzo.

Battler (or culprit x) could just order the servants to do that.
Notice the trick could be also used on the 1st twilight. It just require a servant who don't tell he/she lock the door because he/she didn't remember it or feared to be suspected.

I think Ryukishi had in mind that nobody than the culprit is responsible for the construction of the closed rooms. The rule 'non-culprit characters do not cooperate with the culprit' seems to prohibit it. Manga-Battler states to the rule: no secret agreements and accomplices, no covering up and giving alibis to the culprit. Also, in the blue truth he used Battler as a aid to let Rudolph in Natsuhi's room (they would not Rudolph in if he tried it ). Therefore the author kept the rule intact if the non-culprit character does not know the true intentions of the culprit.
In other words: The culprit can use innocent characters as aids if they think nothing is suspicous, that's the premise.

Thank you I did read the comments there, but I still didn't truly understand their logic. At least for me, it is not satisfactory, as one rule states that innocent people wouldn't help the culprit. To not mention such an event as you described it to the survivors, can, in my eyes, very much be considered "help", as the whole "locked room" issue about Natsuhi's room would be immediately resolved.

If I may: First of all, according to Will, all the hints to solve a mystery must be present. For Battler to have this secret talk with the servants is ...how to say...the way I see it, somewhat "random". The servants have all been together from the first twilight on, it says. This would mean that all(!) the servants equally kept quiet about Battler having been together with Natsuhi and Krauss.
This is very unsatisfactory: the servants wouldn't think there was anything to it for Battler to talk with Natsuhi and Krauss, to be asked to close the door and a bit later finding those two dead in a supposedly closed room....Noone of the servants would have taken a look inside the room, and all of them simply trusted Battler, even when they started to talk about the closed room. They all kept quiet. Now, if this isn't help, what is? It's a bit absurd. What's more, Rudolf would lie about having murdered Natsuhi when, from their perspective, there isn't even anyone else left but R/K and Battler, who would all know the truth. What would be the purpose of that? If I accept this solution, sadly, I cannot consider this good writing and I can only put it on the same level as a "Ryukishi made a mistake". Both are equally unsatisfactory.

Concerning Erika's blue truth, which seemed to be accepted in the post you linked, it is impossible to simply switch H/E/G for R/K/B, as the children should have confirmed their parents death. As Rudolf and Kyrie are standing outside, Battler would still need to lie about Rudolf's death. Also, if George was a culprit, he wouldn't die at the end of the game.

I read another answer, though, of course, this is equally open to discussion:
The very purpose of the ending of Bern's game seems to be to create a contradiction, or "logic error" as they would call it. Following the rules, Natsuhi cannot be murdered. There are three options though to solve it, the first one would be something along the lines of a ventriloquist. This would, imo, completely destroy the game, as with this, every character would gain the margin to lie if the true culprit simply took over their lines. The second one would be to say: the rules aren't stated in red, and Sayo herself says she wouldn't always follow the rules she herself set up.
The other one is that Bern never stated the number of people on the island. (I didn't confirm this for the VN). Bern only says that the characters appearing are the "usual ones", which could include Ange. This would explain some cryptic lines in the episodes: some that Ange says at the beginning or some sentences that Erika and Bern tell her. It would furthermore explain Bern guiding Ange through all the crime-scenes, George's interference when Ange is about to announce her presence in Bern's game, as well as the "time-loop", in which Ange says she is trapped.

For me this was quite convincing, as I always thought that Umineko was about remembering, confessing and repenting of people who already died, and for various reasons, I suspected that Ange wasn't as innocent as she is depicted. I believe that there are always two rounds of the same game, and that there is therefore an Ange that had chosen the wrong door which is overwritten by an Ange who makes the right choice. But of course, this is my take on it, and I might discard this as soon as someone finds some arguments against that. So feel free to disagree here

[Dangi]

Hello, I´m Dangi. I just wanted to say that I love the Idea of this forum.
I´m currently participating on a similar "forum" like this, call Umineko Online or UO.
Umineko Online is an IRC type chatroom client. Selecting your character, emotion, location, etc. and talking to others as your RP, solve mysteries, or just relax. You can navigate across the various locations found in the VN. Allows the use of sound effects and music playback from the VN. Supports Red/Blue/Gold/Purple truths as of now. Higurashi characters are also available.
You can join UO here: http://uminekoonline.tumblr.com/
You can also see some examples of what we do here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCA1...cJFjrDhksQB0tw
That´s all. I would be very glad to see you there