Fate/stay night Game discussion (Warning: Spoilers)

[Haak]

I just read the first chapter now. It looks freaking awesome.

[DragoZERO]

You shouldn't link to ANN.

Looks interesting. I would rather a HF first though.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

You shouldn't link to ANN.

Why not?

Also, just read the six chapters I could find... I feel cheated. No FSN in any of them.

[DragoZERO]

A multitude of reasons...but let's not ruin the conversation.

No F/SN!? Bummer. Hopefully it was never scanlated. I have another reason to play Tsukihime now.

[DragoZERO]

Cont'd from: Fate/stay night Q&A

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

No, UBW doesn't reveal the true reason why she cares about him so much, although I believe it does hint at part of it.

Spoiler for HF:

To know that, you need to know about Rin's relationship to Sakura, and that's only covered in HF.

No. What she saw "that" day is told. You learn in HF how it is related to Sakura.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

No. What she saw "that" day is told. You learn in HF how it is related to Sakura.

Yes, but "that day" isn't the main reason why she cares about Shirou. If you recall the prologue of the game, the first thing that comes to her mind when she sees that it is Shirou is "Sakura's crying face". Whilst her crush on him is part of the reason why he's upset about his death, the major factor is his importance to Sakura.

Also, whilst I believe UBW does hint at the reason she originally liked Shirou, I'm not sure that it goes into the full detail of it.

[DragoZERO]

Ah, that's what you meant. Then it is as you said, however I do believe her feelings for him were a factor in her reaction as well.

[Kusa-San]

Originally Posted by GDB

Why not?

Also, just read the six chapters I could find... I feel cheated. No FSN in any of them.

FSN story are in the second vol.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Ah, that's what you meant. Then it is as you said, however I do believe her feelings for him were a factor in her reaction as well.

Yeah, I wouldn't deny that. However, I don't think Rin would have saved him if the only reason for doing so had been a vague crush, because I don't see her being able to justify it to herself.

[Tenchi Hou Take]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Yeah, I wouldn't deny that. However, I don't think Rin would have saved him if the only reason for doing so had been a vague crush, because I don't see her being able to justify it to herself.

True but if you think about it more than likely one of the reasons Rin likes Shirou apart from that incident is because Shirou was able to be to Sakura what Rin could not which was to be a caring older sibling. Rin would at the very least feel gratitude for this even if Sakura was no longer alive.

Then you have the fact that Rin has made far more illogical decisions regarding Shirou than Sakura. I mean becoming his ally is all well and good in order to make sure he doesn't die for Sakura's sake, but moving into his house and teaching him magic personally goes far beyond protecting his life especially since he was pretty much holding her back. Not to mention she basicaly told Sakura to up an leave in a very harsh manner. Sure it was the logical choice in order to protect her life but seemed more like something she would do to anyone else rather than specifically protecting Sakura.

Then you have her going right into the heart of the enemy base, risking her life and sacrificing her servant all to try and save Shirou and this was all in Fate route when they didn't even have a relationship. When it comes to Shirou Rin tends to go above and beyond the call of duty of simply saving Shirou because of Sakura and a small crush.

Rin for the most part is very self serving she tries to follow the logical and magus path but she generally just does wants especially with Shirou and especially not with Sakura although she probably cares for both equally.

Either way their was a good chance that she would of saved Shirou anyway although she probably convinced herself with the fact that it was worth it because of Sakura.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take

True but if you think about it more than likely one of the reasons Rin likes Shirou apart from that incident is because Shirou was able to be to Sakura what Rin could not which was to be a caring older sibling. Rin would at the very least feel gratitude for this even if Sakura was no longer alive.

Well, that is possibly true, but I doubt she would be able to justify saving him with "well, he was nice to Sakura before".

Then you have the fact that Rin has made far more illogical decisions regarding Shirou than Sakura. I mean becoming his ally is all well and good in order to make sure he doesn't die for Sakura's sake, but moving into his house and teaching him magic personally goes far beyond protecting his life especially since he was pretty much holding her back.

The difference is that she finds it far easier to justify doing these things with Shirou than she does to justify doing them with Rin. She's been specifically told by her father not to contact Sakura, whereas there is no rule about allying with another master in the Grail Wars, and her "logic" for training Shirou ("if I'm going to ally with him, then I'd better make sure he's strong enough to help") was just about sufficent to allow her to pretend that it was an entirely selfish action even though it wasn't.

Look at HF, for instance. At the first sign of an excuse to do so, Rin breaks into the Matou house and checks it out. Similarly, Rin spends most of the route saying that she's going to kill Sakura and then finding excuses not to. The point is that she can only do that if there exists some excuse for ignoring her father's rules, and the situation in HF provides that in the way that the situations in Fate and UBW do not.

Not to mention she basicaly told Sakura to up an leave in a very harsh manner. Sure it was the logical choice in order to protect her life but seemed more like something she would do to anyone else rather than specifically protecting Sakura.

Well, the reason for that is because she has to make herself think that it was "how she would treat anyone else". You only have to look at her actions in the rest of the game to see that she was clearly trying to "protect" Sakura as best as she could.

Then you have her going right into the heart of the enemy base, risking her life and sacrificing her servant all to try and save Shirou and this was all in Fate route when they didn't even have a relationship. When it comes to Shirou Rin tends to go above and beyond the call of duty of simply saving Shirou because of Sakura and a small crush.

Well, the thing is, you're mistaking Rin's attitude towards Shirou when she's known him for a week and fought alongside him with her attitude when she didn't actually know him at all.

Once she gets to know Shirou as a person, you are entirely right. She isn't protecting him because he's close to Sakura any more, she's protecting him because she cares for him and she knows damn well that, if the situation was reversed, he'd help her without a second thought (as UBW proves). However, at the point where she saved him in the school, she did not know him, and the only reasons for saving him were Sakura and her crush. Of those, I'm pretty sure Sakura was the bigger factor.

Rin for the most part is very self serving she tries to follow the logical and magus path but she generally just does wants especially with Shirou and especially not with Sakura although she probably cares for both equally.

Well, not really. Rin is actually a pretty kind person, although you're right that she tries to follow the "magus path". She certainly doesn't do "what she wants" with Sakura, though, and I'm not sure she does with Shirou, except in UBW.

Either way their was a good chance that she would of saved Shirou anyway although she probably convinced herself with the fact that it was worth it because of Sakura.

I don't agree, honestly. If it had been ten days later then, yes, she would, but at that point, I very much doubt it.

[Flinch]

Seriously... I take a break for... I lost track of how long, and you're STILL on the same topic as when I left! I... I... I'm at a loss for words...

[Arbitres]

Originally Posted by Flinch

Seriously... I take a break for... I lost track of how long, and you're STILL on the same topic as when I left! I... I... I'm at a loss for words...

In their defense I say:

They like circles, and running is good for them.

I think it's rather obvious Rin has been using excuses in order to fuel her own objectives, using her role as a magus as well as the convenience of friendship is pretty a means to an end.... more or less.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

I think it's rather obvious Rin has been using excuses in order to fuel her own objectives, using her role as a magus as well as the convenience of friendship is pretty a means to an end.... more or less.

Well, yes, although she actually seems to believe her excuses to some extent (although it's probably self-delusion...), and when she can't think of one (which is generally the case with Sakura outside of HF, and also when she first decides to kill her in HF), she ends up forcing herself to do things that she really doesn't want to do.

[DragoZERO]

Question: what does Shirou project when he fights Gil after his date with Saber?

Originally Posted by Flinch

Seriously... I take a break for... I lost track of how long, and you're STILL on the same topic as when I left! I... I... I'm at a loss for words...

In all fairness, we have gone to other topics while you were gone... ones we've covered already... but still other topics!

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Question: what does Shirou project when he fights Gil after his date with Saber?

Doesn't he project Avalon?

In all fairness, we have gone to other topics while you were gone... ones we've covered already... but still other topics!

Well, I think every topic which could reasonably be discussed has been covered by now, so....

[Haak]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Question: what does Shirou project when he fights Gil after his date with Saber?

Yes it's Avalon.

[DragoZERO]

I have to play Fate again. I started watching the anime again (skipped the Caster arc to same me aggravation) and was wondering what they changed and such. They did mess up with Excalibur not being hidden with the wind when Saber fought Gil.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Which means changing his personality and thoughts prior to the beginning of the game.

But not his backstory.

No. Rin may well have repressed that belief, but Shirou quite simply had absolutely no reason to believe that she was involved. At least until he found out that Shinji was a magus, anyway....

Which is what I was refferring to. It was a massive plot point.

He admitted that he found her attractive, but he also said that it troubled him, and he thought it was "wrong" to be attracted to the sister of his friend (and his Kohai).

If you read through HF, it's quite clear that he was in denial of his true feelings for Sakura.

I don't even remember that. And besides, you can't conciously repress something.

This isn't really gonna get anywhere. It seems we have completely different perspectives on the same thing here. And can accept that Shirou is repressing feelings of love for Sakura in HF but since I believe Shirou likes Sakura more at the start anyway, so it doesn't really make a difference to my original point.

Well, no, not quite. The player is representing Shirou when we make decisions, but Shirou has his own thought processes and emotions that are not necessarily the same as those of the player.

Not really. When Shirou has a clear feeling on an issue, we do not get a choice at all. It's when there is more of a dilemma that we get a choice, and even then the Bad Ends are considered "non-canon" (in the sense that Shirou wouldn't really act that way).

Actually even when Shirou was completely clear we did sort of get a choice. Remember when he had to decide whether to rescue Ilya after Dark Sakura had kidnapped her? All choices were to save her.

And even so that doesn't change my point. We only get a choice when Shirou isn't clear on the issue. That's the whole point. Shirou isn't clear on the issue so why should we? Hence the choice.

I believe Shirou can genuinly act that way in the bad endings.

No, I'm saying that, without choosing those Sakura choices, Shirou never comes to realise that he is ignoring his true feelings for Sakura, because he spends most of the war trying to push her away, for her own safety.

Yes, that is entirely true. In HF, Shirou spends more time with Sakura early on and Zouken notices him, which means that Zouken is able to activate her and set his plans in motion.

However, none of this has anything to do with Shirou's fundamental feelings, because he never makes an actual decision along the lines of "I like Sakura more, so I'll spend time with her", the events just flow in such a way that he happens to do so. It's not because he likes Sakura "more" in those routes, it's just that the sequence of events is such that he happens to bump into Sakura more and come to understand her a little better.

I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense. It is definitely NOT just a sequence of events that Shirou spends more time with Sakura in the begginning and HF happens, otherwise none of the other routes would exist.

And I never said that he makes an actual decision along the lines of "I like Sakura more, so I'll spend time with her". He just likes her more without realising it.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Haak

But not his backstory.

Changing his personality is changing his backstory, in some manner. Either you change the events that result in him becoming who he is (or his reactions to them), or else you change his very conception to make him genetically different.

I don't even remember that. And besides, you can't conciously repress something.

Well, it was there....

This isn't really gonna get anywhere. It seems we have completely different perspectives on the same thing here.

Yeah, it seems that way....

And can accept that Shirou is repressing feelings of love for Sakura in HF but since I believe Shirou likes Sakura more at the start anyway, it doesn't make a difference to my original point anyway.

Like I said, that does not make sense. Shirou (and the other characters) start all three routes from the same place, which includes their feelings for each other, because that is part of who they are as a person.

Actually even when Shirou was completely clear we did sort of get a choice. Remember when he had to decide whether to rescue Ilya after Dark Sakura had kidnapped her? All choices were to save her.

Well, that was obviously put there to prove a point to the reader....

I'm sorry but that doesn't make any sense. It is definitely NOT just a sequence of events that Shirou spends more time with Sakura in the begginning and HF happens, otherwise none of the other routes would exist.

Why not?

In HF, Shirou spends enough time with Sakura for Zouken to activate her, resulting in Zouken setting the situation up such that she'll move in with him and they'll become closer. In the other routes, he does not, and thus she is never activated, Zouken doesn't start his Xanatos Gambit, Shirou doesn't know that Shinji has a servant until later and Shinji doesn't abuse her as much (thus making Shirou think she's safer at home, rather than being around him and in danger) and, in the end, Shirou pushes Sakura away in order to prevent her from getting dragged into the war, so no relationship develops.