2011-12-27, 14:00 | Link #18681 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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Maintaining tradition to maintain tradition. Some see it as the only way to keep their culture/religion pure and faithful. Others have other reasons behind doing things. Most whitewashed with tradition and "this is how things are" mentality. Some because they believe they are following "God's" law to the letter (or maybe the intent of the letter). Some are following and trying to get others to follow because they believe it will hasten the coming of utopia (the Messiah). Seeing the lacks ways of other versions of their own or other religions as unpure and false. This causes them to be even more strict, because now they have something to prove. That they are the more pure and correct way.
However in the Ultra-Orthodox Jew case...we are talking about a group that I suppose has traditions going back thousands of years, some from the Exodus (some from before that), and others handed down from after the destruction of the Temple (either the first one or the second one...I'm not sure when they started following some traditions and then others). Some Christians, while not following all this, do also want them success because they see the UO utopia idea as the coming of Revolations, the ending of the World, and the return of Jesus. Ending with a Utopia for the faithful. I truly do not know what, if any, ideas Islam claims based on these concepts.
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2011-12-27, 14:57 | Link #18682 |
'אין ייאוש בעולם כלל
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: UK
Age: 39
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While what Ithekro says is certainly true, there is an element of baiting involved here not being mentioned in the mainstream news.
A lot of news has focused on the mehadrin bus lines in Israel. A good example is the line from Ashdod to Jerusalem. There's a bus every 30 minutes (the 438) that goes the route but also, on the hour, there is a mehadrin bus (the 450) which operates with a voluntary separation of men and women (that aren't married). This is the voluntary choice of both men and women who take this bus, but recently (female) reporters have been intentionally taking the bus and flouting the separation which has stirred trouble. This strikes me as an attack on free choice and democracy, rather than a defense thereof. |
2011-12-27, 15:01 | Link #18683 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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2011-12-27, 15:06 | Link #18684 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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If I read that right, there is a bus every half hour for anyone to take, but there is also an hourly bus for those that wish to maintain the seperation of the sexes.
Is this correct? Also how are the sexes seperated in this case? A divider? seperate busses? Are the married women allowed to be with their husbands? (These are things that have not been regularly practised in my lifetime where I live, so I have no idea of the wheres or hows). The closest things to that would be the divide between "whites and colored" in the Deep South well over ten years before I was born. Though I do hear that some Christian churchs still keep men and women seperate...I've not experianced it.
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Last edited by Ithekro; 2011-12-27 at 15:17. |
2011-12-27, 15:10 | Link #18685 |
'אין ייאוש בעולם כלל
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: UK
Age: 39
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It's voluntary insomuchas you have two buses running at the same time (the 438 and the 450) on the same route. One you can sit wherever you want, the other the passengers (both male and female) respectfully prefer to keep separate. You don't have to take the latter bus, it's infrequent and often considerably more crowded. It exists because there are those, both men and women, who don't want to sit together unless they are married.
Does that sound unequal to you? It affects men and women the same. EDIT: @Ithekro, that's right. There's a regular bus every half an hour, but on the hour you have the OPTION of one that has separation. There's no barriers, it's just seating separation. In some, women sit only at the front and men at the back. For others it's reversed. |
2011-12-27, 15:29 | Link #18686 | |
Not Enough Sleep
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: R'lyeh
Age: 48
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Last edited by Xellos-_^; 2011-12-27 at 15:56. |
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2011-12-27, 16:01 | Link #18688 |
Disabled By Request
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Involuntary voluntary? Do you mean they do it voluntarily because they have to? Well, I'm not gonna claim the obvious by saying that makes no sense, but that's not at all what he's saying. Those who take the bus on the hour have the OPTION of choosing whether to take the bus where there is no separation or the bus where there is. If people didn't want to keep separate, they could take the bus where there's no separation. When you consider that, the voluntary separation sounds quite voluntary to me.
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2011-12-27, 16:11 | Link #18689 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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"Involuntary voluntary" I believe would mean, "Doing so because it is expected" or traditional. One of those "Doesn't do anything else because the idea of doing something else doesn't seem logical" problems. However that cannot be entirely the case here because there is an option to do something else that is more conveniant.
This isn't like the buses were the "coloreds" had to ride in the back by law because there was no other option, or the "seperate but equal" crap that was pulled for years in the same regions. There is a clear other way possible. Now if you mean a matter of "programming" via religious teachings as an "involuntary voluntary", well...that is religion for you. The Amish I suppose could be considered similar in that, but they too have the option of leaving their 1699-ish lifestyle.
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2011-12-27, 16:14 | Link #18690 | |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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It's quite an unpleasant development which the worldly jews are suffering through. Since most of the ultra-orthodox don't work, they're alimented by the state. At the same time, they're outbreeding the worldly jews by a significant margin. To "thank" them for that, they're aggressively harassing people who don't share their views - they have time for that, after all. However, since Netanyahu wouldn't be able to remain in power without the hardcore right, he has tolerated this (mis)behavior for far too long. And even now, when after the attacks on the IDF he has no choice but to condemn the ultra-orthodox violence, there's still no rigorous restoring of order. So, in a nutshell, Israel is plagued by narrowminded religious zealots just like the rest of so many states in the middle east. If I was a worldly jew, I'd be extremely frustrated. The way things are developing, it's only going to get worse instead of better. |
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2011-12-27, 16:25 | Link #18691 | |||
'אין ייאוש בעולם כלל
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: UK
Age: 39
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Young women are not "often" verbally abused or spat on. It shouldn't happen at all, but it rarely does occur by a fringe element and (this is extremely important) if something has occurred to provoke it. It's very rare and the people who do that sort of thing are shunned quite openly by the leaders and majority in the hareidi tzibur (ultra-orthodox community). "Settlers" as you know them are also not hareidi, they are dati leumi (religious zionist) and there was one single incident of attacking an IDF base (not IDF soldiers) by this sector this year. This caused an outcry from all sides. Quote:
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2011-12-27, 16:30 | Link #18693 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I'm not saying it's the same - in the case of public restrooms, the vast majority accepts and welcomes the separation (or at least doesn't care). No need to harass anyone. But my point is, separation isn't necessarily wrong. |
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2011-12-27, 16:35 | Link #18694 | |
'אין ייאוש בעולם כלל
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: UK
Age: 39
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I think the culprits were a bit mentally suspect too. |
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2011-12-27, 16:50 | Link #18695 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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Well since that is technically (until a treaty is finalized) foreign soil, the military would have law in their hands rather than the civilian police departments. So that makes sense.
I hope the military did carry out the law as required in that situation even after that incident. Can't let the radicals dictate policy by proxy for the people or the governement. At least not without someone saying something about it if it is wrong.
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2011-12-27, 17:13 | Link #18696 | ||
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
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2) Verbal and physical abuse invalidates any claim of "disrespect". 3) if something has occurred to provoke it. um, that's the "she was raped because she provoked it by exposing her ankles" defense. :P 3) "separate but equal" really doesn't work and is socially abusive in practice - historically validated. 4) If they are really outlier fringe extreme zealots, then I should think a crack down for violating secular codes of behavior would be the least the government could do. There's no reason to have respect for or even walk quietly by someone who wants to dictate everyone else's values.
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2011-12-27, 17:17 | Link #18697 | ||||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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Oh really.
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http://www.haaretz.com/news/national...emesh-1.403916 Heck, in fact, it's so irrelevant that even President Shimon Peres (!) encouraged people to ATTEND a demonstration against religious zealotry. It's going so far that it's even prime time news in other countries. http://www.haaretz.com/news/national...emism-1.403887 Totally rare, really. Who are you kidding? Quote:
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2011-12-27, 17:23 | Link #18698 | |
'אין ייאוש בעולם כלל
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: UK
Age: 39
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2. I'm not saying it's right, it's very wrong and extremely upsetting to the majority in the hareidi community. What I'm saying is that people shouldn't go around looking for trouble, just as much as people shouldn't start trouble. Putting yourself at risk is forbidden in halacha (Jewish law) as much as being the risk. 3. You said 3 twice :P I'll answer #2 since #1 is similar to number 2? You're quite right of course, I'm not arguing that separate but equal always works. It's just a fact that some people, men and women, don't feel comfortable with mixed seating on a bus. If there was no provision for that, they'd either create their own bus service or simply not take public transport. The option is there for those who want it. A democracy is supposed to serve ALL it's citizens. 4. I agree, of course. Look, there's a lot of different groups. We have naturei kartei who support palestinian terrorism and attacks against "zionists", but they number no more than a few thousand. Because they wear black hats too, people tend to tar all the hareidim with the one brush. |
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2011-12-27, 17:28 | Link #18699 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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Well Haaretz is criticized as being Anti-Zionist by some Israeli.
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2011-12-27, 17:29 | Link #18700 | |||
'אין ייאוש בעולם כלל
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: UK
Age: 39
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Yarly?
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Just live and let live. Quote:
Beit Shemesh is particularly bad, but I see the co-existance and the situation from FACTS ON THE GROUND. Haaretz is the most left wing publication in Israeli media and is whipping up a frenzy with hareidi attacks. So much so that President Perez has called for them to stop; http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/...ncitement.html Quote:
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current affairs, discussion, international |
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