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[Mr Hat and Clogs]

I remember being told once that Israeli doctrine for attacks is to be so overwhelming that the enemy can't or won't respond because the initial attack was so damaging. If that's true, I guess that might play a part here to - though it sounds like it's working against them in the court of public opinion.

[Joyce_Steele]

"Gaza is burning and it is beautiful, do it again"

Average Americans on Arab-Israeli conflicts.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Joyce_Steele

"Gaza is burning and it is beautiful, do it again"

Average Americans on Arab-Israeli conflicts.

With defence stocks in your 401k basket, I don't see why they would think otherwise. [/sarcasm]

[Hiss13]

Originally Posted by Joyce_Steele

"Gaza is burning and it is beautiful, do it again"

Average Americans on Arab-Israeli conflicts.

I would say something about generalizing a whole country...but you know what? I won't. You're absolutely right. It pisses me off when I see our government's and our media's freaking love affair with Israel.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Hiss13

I would say something about generalizing a whole country...but you know what? I won't. You're absolutely right. It pisses me off when I see our government's and our media's freaking love affair with Israel.

From my standpoint, I think it is quite international politics at play here. US and Israel have a mutual relationship, where US needs Israel to keep OPEC im check and prevent them from controlling US' oil supply, while Israel needs US' ability to field substantial hi-tech firepower worldwide to keep the Zionist movement from being exterminated.

I think Seijisensei might have a more holistic and better view of this conflict; being more politically astute with his age and experience.

[Fireminer]

@Mr Hats and Clogs: Isn't that the same with America's Asymmetric Warfare? Crippling the enemy's facilities from the first strike with overwhelming force provided by airbone and missile?

[MihawkXGP]

Originally Posted by ninryu

They did. They always do. Hamas is trying to force civilians to stay and be their meat shield so they can send pretty photos to news agencies around the world. That's how they work.

Oh that's a good one, got that straight from the Israeli government did ya?
Hamas isn't forcing anyone to do anything and there isn't a shred of evidence that they've used any kind of force to make people human shields. Yes, there is evidence to suggest they tell people to stay, but these people have their own choice, stay or go - no one is forcing them, and no Palestinian has said otherwise.

This is just a long list of lies the Israeli military uses to absolve themselves of any blame for civilian casualties they cause. Its pretty clear now they are no safer if they are in their homes than if they are in a Hospital or a U.N designated shelter.

The Israelis will get them and will make every excuse in the book and gullible fools like you sitting comfortably in the west just lap it up without giving it a 2nd though.

it shows what kind of twisted mind people like you have, blame the ones being killed and not the ones killing them.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by MihawkXGP

Oh that's a good one, got that straight from the Israeli government did ya?
Hamas isn't forcing anyone to do anything and there isn't a shred of evidence that they've used any kind of force to make people human shields. Yes, there is evidence to suggest they tell people to stay, but these people have their own choice, stay or go - no one is forcing them, and no Palestinian has said otherwise.

This is just a long list of lies the Israeli military uses to absolve themselves of any blame for civilian casualties they cause. Its pretty clear now they are no safer if they are in their homes than if they are in a Hospital or a U.N designated shelter.

The Israelis will get them and will make every excuse in the book and gullible fools like you sitting comfortably in the west just lap it up without giving it a 2nd though.

it shows what kind of twisted mind people like you have, blame the ones being killed and not the ones killing them.

Uh what? How is that sick and twisted if the person choose to put him or herself in harm's way and expected not to be killed or injured?

That is freedom of choice. How is it the other party's fault if the victim knows yet chooses not to exercise it?

And one more thing, please avoid personal attacks. Thank you.

[Mr Hat and Clogs]

Originally Posted by Fireminer

@Mr Hats and Clogs: Isn't that the same with America's Asymmetric Warfare? Crippling the enemy's facilities from the first strike with overwhelming force provided by airbone and missile?

I guess, but the way it was described to me it sounded more like scorched earth, where as America seems to go for high tech precise strikes, or at least tries to (if things work as intended (ie no; whoops, that laser guided bomb hit the orphanage and kitten shelter, instead of the terrorist weapons factory).

[Fireminer]

It's a "frozen conflict" zone, with the word "frozen" actually mean "neither side could make a move". You won't "retaliate" if you have the capability and the will to win. More like revenge and a method to redirect domestic view.

Beside, run away, return, then run away again - it make a tired routine. Can't say that staying is a smart thing, but it's understandable.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Uh what? How is that sick and twisted if the person choose to put him or herself in harm's way and expected not to be killed or injured?

That is freedom of choice. How is it the other party's fault if the victim knows yet chooses not to exercise it?

And one more thing, please avoid personal attacks. Thank you.

Such blanket assumption....

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Such blanket assumption....

How is it a blanket assumption?

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

How is it a blanket assumption?

There are wounded in hospitals who cannot move, oblivious people walking in streets, cases where they received no warning

Not everyone got the opportunity or ability to flee as you well know.

Situations are never that simple as they are made out to be

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

There are wounded in hospitals who cannot move, oblivious people walking in streets, cases where they received no warning

Not everyone got the opportunity or ability to flee as you well know.

Situations are never that simple as they are made out to be

Excluding them then, that aside, my point is sill directed at those who run into buildings and get themselves bombed out or stand on rooftops imstead of bringing the wounded/injured to safety.

Still, the phone calls are not one way. Unless it is some Hamas guy picking up the phone, I don't see how the inhabitants would tell that nut straight that they need more time to evacuate the sick and injured.

[Cosmic Eagle]

That's assuming people give a damn about such minor inconveniences like civilians whom they hardly care less about

And I somehow doubt that the majority of casualties come from people who actually willingly just stand there to be blown up. It could be there were no phone calls in many instances.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

That's assuming people give a damn about such minor inconveniences like civilians whom they hardly care less about

I think you got it wrong. After Vietnam, collateral damage become quite a huge thing; "Rolling Thunder" were abandoned in favour for special forces and surgical strikes due to the expanding power of media. Israel had used door knocks, precision strikes and special operators rather than rolling in full firepower and armour at the start of the conflict, so as to maintain good public image.

The political pressure, unfortunately thriumped; Netanyahu just made himself a war criminal rolling in the tanks.

And I somehow doubt that the majority of casualties come from people who actually willingly just stand there to be blown up. It could be there were no phone calls in many instances.

That second statement is pretty much an assumption. I find it hard to relent if there is no proof (as in news reports) about it.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Such "ideals" are just vapour in the face of what actually happens no? You yourself admit that the right-wing extremist pressure cares nothing for stuff like this.


You find it hard to relent but I am not trying to make you relent at all. If you think you are not making a generalized assumption, fine by me. No need to try so hard to be in the right since right and wrong never meant anything anyway.

[Fireminer]

Looking at BBC, CNN, CBS and Fox, it seem to be another repeative process: interviewing relatives of the killed, showing gruesome images, talk shows with the experts. And then it done, another number, another award.

The reason why the bombing of North Vietnam has that massive impact is that most of world didn't know about news channels, or social networks. That was the first time. Plus, there was the advocate of American public and even some celebrities, like Jane Fonda.

Public relation, it doesn't matter here. The world has gotten tired with this conflict (just look at few recent pages.) Both side have got strong support domestically. Mortars or Laser-guided Bombs, it doesn't matter.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Once upon a time, the term "Human shield" describes civilians you don't want to put in harm's way.

These days though, for Israelis "human Shield" means civilians you are allowed to kill. Shields aren't people.

I look forward to be proven wrong.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Fireminer

Looking at BBC, CNN, CBS and Fox, it seem to be another repeative process: interviewing relatives of the killed, showing gruesome images, talk shows with the experts. And then it done, another number, another award.

The reason why the bombing of North Vietnam has that massive impact is that most of world didn't know about news channels, or social networks. That was the first time. Plus, there was the advocate of American public and even some celebrities, like Jane Fonda.

Public relation, it doesn't matter here. The world has gotten tired with this conflict (just look at few recent pages.) Both side have got strong support domestically. Mortars or Laser-guided Bombs, it doesn't matter.

I guess so. I find it hard to have an opinion supporting either side when one side throws fluff and conspiracy theories while the other isn't take effort to reduce escalation.

I would like both sides to increase the intensity of the fighting until the moderates from both sides stop being so fucking apathetic.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Once upon a time, the term "Human shield" describes civilians you don't want to put in harm's way.

These days though, for Israelis "human Shield" means civilians you are allowed to kill. Shields aren't people.

I look forward to be proven wrong.

If I had Murdoch in my payroll, I would bomb the crap out of the building; insurgents or innocents, JDAMs or mortars. What matters is that I get the insurgents.[/sarcasm]

I think the Israeli strategy has shifted under pressure to gut as much of Hamas as possible, hence the lack of the usual precision in Israeli surgical operations. What I am concerned are that who are these nuts who piled the pressure on and how can we remove them politically?