2012-08-31, 19:54 | Link #30281 |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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I was absent for some time... and now i see that nothing changed... I mean how many times were these things like the identities of Ikuko and Tohya discussed already? It really seems time for R07 to publish new information.
Anyway... I still think that Tohya=Battler and Ikuko=Yasuda, because of the last scene in Twilight o.t.g.W. in the orphange. If you look at the characters involved you get the impression, that Ange replaces Yukari, Battler replaces Tohya and Beatrice replaces Ikuko. But maybe that is just my "Headcanon" in which I wish for an ending that is at least a little bit of a happy ending... as it seems, ambiguous endings are "mainstream" now. (Mass Effect 3, anyone?)
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Last edited by GreyZone; 2012-08-31 at 20:20. |
2012-08-31, 21:02 | Link #30282 | ||
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Apparently in Japan a lot of people fell for the trick. Over here at animesuki though most people didn't, and didn't even know there was a trick.. Quote:
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2012-08-31, 21:23 | Link #30283 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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And that's exactly what I said. I'm not saying he's EXACTLY the same person as when he was 12, that would be foolish, but I'm not gonna jump off the proverbial cliff and say that contrary to every bit of characterization Ryu provided, Battler was actually moody and had a tendency to pinch his aunts butts. . Well, I suppose you could, but ... well, I'm not strong enough to still enjoy a plot that would then enter some borderline James Joyce level abstraction. Also, having just reread a bit of the chapters about Ikuko, Tohya=Battler and Ikuko=stranger seemed ... fairly apparent. I mean, it doesn't seem to be pulling any weird narrative punches, at all. Tohya's headaches spring up when he tries to remember stuff, when he first thinks about arguin over mysteries, and when Ikuko kinda randomly brings up the Rokkenjima incident it throbs into overdrive. In my opinion, the only thing to doubt is WHEN exactly Ikuko figured out who Battler was, since the passage of time in the chapters concerning their home life is the vaguest thing ever. Well, honestly, I just really like random hermit "I talk to corpses on the street, and take them home if they happen to be alive" lady. And the thought of her being Yasu just never crossed my mind, even. It was also said that her family was rather well known in the area, her siblings pretty accomplished. Ehhh, I just think the room for all this doubt is so small, I'd rather just disregard it. It's as GreyZone says, though ... would be nice to get some development on Ryu's next project. Or wait for that "Forgery of the Purple Logic" fan work to be translated, amirite?! |
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2012-08-31, 22:08 | Link #30284 | |
The True Culprit
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2012-08-31, 23:01 | Link #30285 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Regardless, his body isn't really what was being talked about. Though if a forgery appeared with a gratuitous shirtless Battler scene... |
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2012-09-01, 06:06 | Link #30287 | |
"Senior" "Member"
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Well about Battler's "real" personality, I wrote something some time ago, so I'll just repost it:
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2012-09-01, 07:32 | Link #30288 | ||||||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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If Battler or Yasu didn't exist, or were not part of the story your reasoning could work, but since they exist and they are part of the story, their encounter with a random person isn't unlikely at all. Quote:
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In that case it would be one of the premises of the story, even if it wasn't clearly stated. But since this is clearly meant to be a plot twist, that's a given. Quote:
Ryuukishi certaintly created the situation you described, but he also stated that you should be able to understand the truth using the hints he left to us. and that's where you should draw the line. Else I can state something like: "There was a secret Russian facility hidden in Rokkenjima. Kinzo was actually a spy for the Russians, the incident is actually the result of an experiment gone wrong." There's absolutely no point in that. You're not justified in coming up with never mentioned facts just because you don't know which is true or false. If it's catbox, you'll either find a dead cat or an alive cat. You won't find a frog. Quote:
Certainly something isn't wrong just because someone doesn't agree with you, and there isn't anything "circular" about it. A logical fallacy is invalid by definition. Why don't you look it up?
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2012-09-01 at 08:53. |
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2012-09-01, 08:36 | Link #30289 | |||||
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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But then I said.... Wait! What if it is the masked guy who was with her at the book signing? And then I felt very proud of myself. Quote:
Well, as a matter of fact, you're right, he didn't, though I don't know how 'Yes, it was Battler' would follow up in the discussion. In the end, that's the whole point. Although I'm not a fan of Toya=Random and Ikuko=Yasu theories, I do enjoy the fact that so many different stories it is still possible to come up with. Quote:
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That's one of the reasons I hate the Ikuko=Yasu theory. There's just no adequate hint to pass it as acceptable.
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2012-09-01, 08:51 | Link #30290 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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I value more thematic narrative hints rather than crude mathematical facts. To believe in the Yasu=Ikuko I should see something that thematically and narratively suggests that, something in the way she acts or talks that would suggest she is Yasu. I do not believe that Ryuukishi would simply throw an Ikuko and the expect us to conclude that she must be Yasu. At any rate what I mean to say is that at least this theory has some basis to it, albeit weak. It is still better than "Ikuko was Eva's confidante" that Renall suggested earlier.
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2012-09-01 at 09:08. |
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2012-09-01, 09:17 | Link #30291 | ||
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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2012-09-01, 10:26 | Link #30292 | ||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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Seriously. Look it up. It's even mentioned in the Wikipedia article you posted a few days ago. Quote:
I really think people often jump to conclusions when interpreting that interview with Keiya, though. How about how Ikuko doesn't think of herself as human? |
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2012-09-01, 10:52 | Link #30294 |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Crime Scene
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There's an interview were Ryuukishi07 said "Yes, it was Battler". All the hints point to "Yes, it was Battler". There's not a single line that questions or negates the "Yes, it was Battler"
What in the world is so hard to catch about the "Yes, it was freaking Battler" confirmed by the word of god? Ikuko is regarded as an oddity. For all we know, she's a real witch that tought funny to try and spread Rokkenjima's cat box. Ikuko=Yasu is less likely that Yasu stumbling around as an amnesiac -because, you know, she was in the Rokkenjima big boom and she couldn't have so swiftly gone and buy a house, identity and all that jazz in so little time-. Yasu wouldn't have escaped of the Big Boom even if she could. Because that's all her character is about and is been hinted for the enterity of the series: that she was all for dying with them if nobody solved the epitaph. And if they solved it... if they solved it she would do nothing and let them do as they pleased. In case of Battler, George or maybe even Jessica solving it, she'd let her funiture die and take the identity for the winner... and let them do as they pleased with her. Disturbing contents included. BTE, there's a difference between assuptions made on shaky fundations and freaking castles in the air. And there's difference between something unlikely but possible inside the game and bullshit from an asspull.
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2012-09-01, 12:03 | Link #30295 | ||
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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So yes, she felt guilty enough to commit suicide over the deaths that occurred, but that's not quite the same thing as being determined to blow everyone up along with herself. In the former case, she might choose not to commit suicide if she had the opportunity to save somebody else. For instance, what if Battler was responsible for the murder game escalating into actual murders, and he tried to commit suicide out of guilt himself after learning the truth from Yasu?
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2012-09-01, 12:27 | Link #30296 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Well, not that Umineko cares much about realism but a real person might think she's ready to do something and long to do it and when faced with said something backpedal as fast as he/she can especially when said something involves dying. So PrimeYasu can honestly believe she will kill herself/will let herself die and yet, when faced with the whole thing just lose her guts and do the opposite.
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2012-09-01, 14:40 | Link #30297 | |||
Human
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Crime Scene
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What I'm trying to say is that Shanon was ready to let George take her away and marry him. I believe the great incident that was going to happen anyway was she giving the siblings the opportunity to solve the epitaph and get the Headship. If she gave George the gold, there was a possibility of hurting the moron's dreams about him building his perfect castle by himself. And Yasu didn't want to hurt anyone's dreams. Quote:
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On a side note about the X-Sibling-that-found-gold as killer theory: Why take the burden of killing individually everyone if you could just run away and wait for the bomb to go off without telling them about Kuwadorian? I think some spontaneous blast that nobody expected is better and safer than the possibility of someone making a call or finding a way to comunicate about some mad serial killer. Surely one misterious vanishing or two would make less scandal that 6+ people being brutally murdered...
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2012-09-01, 14:51 | Link #30298 | |||||
The True Culprit
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Also, there's ample evidence to suggest that Ikuko is faking quite a lot of information. Lying to an amnesiac man isn't a stretch, especially when Amnesia Doesn't Work That Way. Then again, it's the same reasoning people used to deny Shkanon mirite? Quote:
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"Battler is alive" is a plot twist right at the epilogue. Quote:
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2012-09-01, 14:57 | Link #30299 |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Crime Scene
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All the hints point to "Yes, it was Battler". There's not a single line that questions or negates the "Yes, it was Battler" Then Ryuukishi nailed it further in the interview, Find me one line in the novel or tips that states, suggests or hints that it's NOT Battler and I'll consider it a little step above asspull.
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2012-09-01, 17:31 | Link #30300 | |
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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Wow, you sound really confident, though last time I checked, you didn't write Umineko....
Well, I'll agree with you as to the fact that I'm not too confident on what Ryukishi said, but I'm not going to dismiss off the bat either. Devil's proof and whatnot. Quote:
P.S: A bit irrelevant but, I just checked out Chapter4 of KnownNoMore, and.... Oh - My - God! That guy's pulling so much stuff out of his ass I wonder how it's still intact! I mean, anyone else here heard of what he calls the 'Rose Symbolism'? I seriously want to gouge out my ears.... And the worst part is, nobody's telling him to SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!!
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Last edited by Captain Bluebeard; 2012-09-01 at 17:42. |
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