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quigonkenny · 2017-07-18, 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaden

2. If you could erase the referee with a frontal assault like that and suffer no consequences, there'd be no point in having one.

Doesn't mean there's no point in making the attempt.

Perhaps the "consequences" are known and acceptable. Perhaps the Reds didn't consider the possibility of consequences like you did.

Perhaps they're simply overconfident, and perhaps that overconfidence is warranted. Most Grail Wars don't have Rulers anyway, so perhaps the Reds assume that the subroutine that spawned her is incomplete, and there isn't much point in having her. The Grail had to suborn a willing human volunteer just to even summon her, so I can't see how allowing an unaligned and nebulously powered "Servant" free reign to interfere with Red's plans is less of a threat to them than whatever spit-and-baling-wire countermeasure the Grail might come up with next...

Obelisk ze Tormentor · 2017-07-19, 00:36

About the Ruler, I have some questions about her too:

Who decided to have a ruler servant in HGW?
What power does a Ruler have over other servants if she's considered to be a referee? What's so special about her if a participating servant can just attack & kill her willy nilly?

Ruler being a referee means that there must be rules and also consequences in the HGW "game" coz a referee without both of them would be pointless. I hope the show properly establishes what kind of rules that the Ruler must uphold (aside from the HGW rules that we know) and what are the consequences that resulted from breaking those rules in the future. If the show doesn't do that then Ruler's referee job is pretty much a non-job

.

Kakurin · 2017-07-19, 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

What power does a Ruler have over other servants if she's considered to be a referee? What's so special about her if a participating servant can just attack & kill her willy nilly?

As of now there is one point that we do know. And it's that she's able to immediately discern the true identity of a servant by looking at him.

belatkuro · 2017-07-19, 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

About the Ruler, I have some questions about her too:

Who decided to have a ruler servant in HGW?
What power does a Ruler have over other servants if she's considered to be a referee? What's so special about her if a participating servant can just attack & kill her willy nilly?

Ruler being a referee means that there must be rules and also consequences in the HGW "game" coz a referee without both of them would be pointless. I hope the show properly establishes what kind of rules that the Ruler must uphold (aside from the HGW rules that we know) and what are the consequences that resulted from breaking those rules in the future. If the show doesn't do that then Ruler's referee job is pretty much a non-job

.

1. The authorGrail itself. Just as how it decides who the Masters would be, it can decide to have a Ruler.

2. We've seen one power already and we'll see the other in the next episodes. There's a reason why the Black want Ruler and why the Red want her out, though there's another reason for that as well.

Obelisk ze Tormentor · 2017-07-19, 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakurin-san

As of now there is one point that we do know. And it's that she's able to immediately discern the true identity of a servant by looking at him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by belatkuro

1. The authorGrail itself. Just as how it decides who the Masters would be, it can decide to have a Ruler.

2. We've seen one power already and we'll see the other in the next episodes. There's a reason why the Black want Ruler and why the Red want her out, though there's another reason for that as well.

Good. Awaiting more details to come then.

Tenzen12 · 2017-07-19, 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaden

Those are fair theories, but I don't buy any of them.

1. He's a servant, if he wants something, he should win the grail war and earn it.
2. If you could erase the referee with a frontal assault like that and suffer no consequences, there'd be no point in having one.
3. It might be futile, but you would at least attempt to use a command spell before losing your servant.

1) That's what he is doing and why she exactly he shouldn't do it from position of king?

2)Of course there are no consequences, in killing Ruler, if you break rules referee puish you. If you kill it, noone can punish you. It"s that simple

3)This is not battle royals as usually but team effort. That's why is perfectly fine make sacrifice if it pays off.

Dengar · 2017-07-19, 02:58

Luckily, the Ruler class tends to get stat boosts around the board. Most of Jeanne's OP'ness comes from her being Ruler.

Oh yeah and her ability to know everything about a servant kinda invalidates any secret weapons they might have that need to remain secret.

That's why Kotomine sent Lancer, he probably had the best shot at defeating her.

ReddyRedWolf · 2017-07-19, 03:15

About Jean being Ruler. She was summoned because there is an irregularity with this grail war. The third grail war had two Sabers that was irregular yet a referee wasn't summoned.

Meaning there is something so wrong with this grail war that the grail would summon a Ruler.

Hence Jean's intent on investigating the grail war.

Tenzen12 · 2017-07-19, 03:23

We know very little about third war, maybe there was ruler summoned or maybe FSN continuity diverged much sooner than third war and there was never fail-safe like that in first place.

EDIT: Another option, probably right one. Einzbern might disable Ruler fail-safe so they can summon and freely use Angra.

Kakurin · 2017-07-19, 03:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

About Jean being Ruler. She was summoned because there is an irregularity with this grail war. The third grail war had two Sabers that was irregular yet a referee wasn't summoned.

Meaning there is something so wrong with this grail war that the grail would summon a Ruler.

Hence Jean's intent on investigating the grail war.

Uh, so where was this stated. I don't remember that being said anywhere in those three episodes that there were two Sabers being summoned...

Tenzen12 · 2017-07-19, 04:01

It was shown in Fate Ataraxia. They were summoned by Edefelts sisters as single summon. They probably counted as single servant similarly to rider Anne and Mary or hundred faces hassan.

Dengar · 2017-07-19, 04:56

That's not what we've been told. We've been told that Ruler was summoned as a referee because that's what happens during a Great Holy Grail War.

quigonkenny · 2017-07-19, 06:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

It was shown in Fate Ataraxia. They were summoned by Edefelts sisters as single summon. They probably counted as single servant similarly to rider Anne and Mary or hundred faces hassan.

In the FSN/FHA/FZ (and presumably FSF and LEM2) timelines, that was indeed the case. We haven't been told anything about the Apocrypha version of HGW3, but since the Greater Grail was stolen during/directly after that War in this timeline, we should not assume that everything went as it did in that War in the original timeline. The timeline could have diverged right at the successful theft of the GG, in which case things might have been much the same, or it could have diverged before then; even before the start of HGW3, given how much planning that theft must have taken...

Tenzen12 · 2017-07-19, 07:02

Sure, maybe Edefelts summoned something else in this continuity, or they didn't even fought in it. Who can say. That said main divergence that allowed grail getting stolen have nothing to do with these twins so I myself would assume that part was same.

quigonkenny · 2017-07-19, 07:06

Hopefully one of these days we get a Higurashi-style timeline wankery series that illustrates the differences that lead up to each timeline, with HGW3 as the background.

Applehell · 2017-07-19, 07:36

So the guy from promos up till this point was actually an homunculus, huh. Black Rider was pretty cool for helping him out. The other Master-Servant bonding were decent, but they still fall short of Sisigo and Mordred's.

Unlike the Black Faction, it's weird that we still don't know who Master-Servant duos are for more than two pairs. Shiro almost seems like he commands most of them, but that can't right since their other masters with him. It's also weird that Ruler can be attack like that and no penalties or such can be incured. Are they running the rules on a honor system? That the last thing you want to do in cutthroat tournament.

belatkuro · 2017-07-19, 08:08

Them being in a room full of incense and just sitting still should be enough of a clue to what state they're in. They're also not in the OP which pretty much says what their importance to the story is. Beware of the priest should be the first thing to come to mind when he proposed a toast and no one moved a muscle.

Applehell · 2017-07-19, 09:04

I already got that he's obiviously susipous, most of the Masters are. But I gleamed no context for his relationship with other Masters just ambiguous hints strangeness going on. Last time we saw the other Red Faction members they were moving around just fine.

Jaden · 2017-07-19, 14:25

They do seem rather catatonic in the "tea time" scene. I see, Shirou is up to no good...

Anh_Minh · 2017-07-19, 16:01

I don't know what either faction want with Ruler either.

And I'm rather annoyed at the lack of anonymity of the Servants. It makes the concerns over it in FSN silly.

Campione had an interesting take on it with its gods, where even if you knew who they were, you didn't know who they were. It made finding out later fun.

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2017-07-19, 00:36	Link #42
Obelisk ze Tormentor Black Steel Knight Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Indonesia	About the Ruler, I have some questions about her too: Who decided to have a ruler servant in HGW? What power does a Ruler have over other servants if she's considered to be a referee? What's so special about her if a participating servant can just attack & kill her willy nilly? Ruler being a referee means that there must be rules and also consequences in the HGW "game" coz a referee without both of them would be pointless. I hope the show properly establishes what kind of rules that the Ruler must uphold (aside from the HGW rules that we know) and what are the consequences that resulted from breaking those rules in the future. If the show doesn't do that then Ruler's referee job is pretty much a non-job . __________________

2017-07-19, 03:23	Link #49
Tenzen12 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012	We know very little about third war, maybe there was ruler summoned or maybe FSN continuity diverged much sooner than third war and there was never fail-safe like that in first place. EDIT: Another option, probably right one. Einzbern might disable Ruler fail-safe so they can summon and freely use Angra. __________________ "I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it" (Charles R. Swindoll)

2017-07-19, 04:01	Link #51
Tenzen12 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012	It was shown in Fate Ataraxia. They were summoned by Edefelts sisters as single summon. They probably counted as single servant similarly to rider Anne and Mary or hundred faces hassan. __________________ "I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it" (Charles R. Swindoll)

2017-07-19, 07:02	Link #54
Tenzen12 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012	Sure, maybe Edefelts summoned something else in this continuity, or they didn't even fought in it. Who can say. That said main divergence that allowed grail getting stolen have nothing to do with these twins so I myself would assume that part was same. __________________ "I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it" (Charles R. Swindoll)

2017-07-19, 02:58	Link #47
Dengar Kamen Rider Muppeteer Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Unknown Age: 39	Luckily, the Ruler class tends to get stat boosts around the board. Most of Jeanne's OP'ness comes from her being Ruler. Oh yeah and her ability to know everything about a servant kinda invalidates any secret weapons they might have that need to remain secret. That's why Kotomine sent Lancer, he probably had the best shot at defeating her.

2017-07-19, 03:15	Link #48
ReddyRedWolf Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2006	About Jean being Ruler. She was summoned because there is an irregularity with this grail war. The third grail war had two Sabers that was irregular yet a referee wasn't summoned. Meaning there is something so wrong with this grail war that the grail would summon a Ruler. Hence Jean's intent on investigating the grail war.

2017-07-19, 04:56	Link #52
Dengar Kamen Rider Muppeteer Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Unknown Age: 39	That's not what we've been told. We've been told that Ruler was summoned as a referee because that's what happens during a Great Holy Grail War.

2017-07-19, 07:06	Link #55
quigonkenny Sav'aaq! Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Hyrule Age: 51	Hopefully one of these days we get a Higurashi-style timeline wankery series that illustrates the differences that lead up to each timeline, with HGW3 as the background. __________________ FGO Info: (JP) 055835281 \| クワイガンケニー ==== (EN) 952525630 \| quigonkenny

2017-07-19, 07:36	Link #56
Applehell Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2016	So the guy from promos up till this point was actually an homunculus, huh. Black Rider was pretty cool for helping him out. The other Master-Servant bonding were decent, but they still fall short of Sisigo and Mordred's. Unlike the Black Faction, it's weird that we still don't know who Master-Servant duos are for more than two pairs. Shiro almost seems like he commands most of them, but that can't right since their other masters with him. It's also weird that Ruler can be attack like that and no penalties or such can be incured. Are they running the rules on a honor system? That the last thing you want to do in cutthroat tournament.

2017-07-19, 08:08	Link #57
belatkuro Kuro-chan Join Date: Mar 2012	Them being in a room full of incense and just sitting still should be enough of a clue to what state they're in. They're also not in the OP which pretty much says what their importance to the story is. Beware of the priest should be the first thing to come to mind when he proposed a toast and no one moved a muscle.

2017-07-19, 09:04	Link #58
Applehell Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2016	I already got that he's obiviously susipous, most of the Masters are. But I gleamed no context for his relationship with other Masters just ambiguous hints strangeness going on. Last time we saw the other Red Faction members they were moving around just fine.

2017-07-19, 14:25	Link #59
Jaden Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006	They do seem rather catatonic in the "tea time" scene. I see, Shirou is up to no good... __________________

2017-07-19, 16:01	Link #60
Anh_Minh I disagree with you all. Join Date: Dec 2005	I don't know what either faction want with Ruler either. And I'm rather annoyed at the lack of anonymity of the Servants. It makes the concerns over it in FSN silly. Campione had an interesting take on it with its gods, where even if you knew who they were, you didn't know who they were. It made finding out later fun.