The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya - Episode 23 Discussion / Poll [2009 added ep. 13]

[Parappashi]

10/10 My favourite episode so far but only just.

Glad Koizumi was there to stop Kyon, do not want to see Haruhi being struck like that, might have trouble sleeping if I did.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Jintor

I can't break through your grammar to figure out your point here.

Ah i forgot a "your" before "own", is it easier to understand now?

There's a couple of thoughts about this that I want to share.
A) The risk of Kyon accidentally destroying the world by treating Haruhi as 'human' is, on the whole, negligable.
B) Even if he does, nobody's going to find out. :3
That said, Kyon treating Haruhi without kid-gloves could be interpreted as selfish... but only if treating a adolescent as someone who is soon to become an adult could be considered selfish. In Kyon's view, Haruhi needs to grow up. Is that a selfish view to take about an irresponsible peer?

A+B) Even the best scenario (Haruhi do not clean the world up on spot). Kyon should at least think of the espers(as no Slap SLap Kiss for sure). They may have to gather their entire organisation if they want to have a chance against that horde of giants


About the 2nd point, I doubt the situation can be interpreted as Kyon want Haruhi to grow up. Anyway let assume it is. Then in that case Haruhi won't really need to grow up for her own good anyway. She's quite modest herself. Then any obstacle will either be cleaned out by her power or the espers group ( i always wonder if they have SP to protect Haruhi all this time). If she want to have an older moe girl to be her toy or slave, literally (THat screen would be kind of erotic ) then she wil get it. In fact it's more realistic in the real world to have whatever you want within your power domain even when it cross all of the ethical barriers.
What Kyon did is selfish because he want Haruhi to be the one he want her to be, not because it will does any help to her in the future. In this case, we can sympathise because we all (except some) want a more adorable Haruhi. However when that selfish can cause trouble to (or destroy) the world then it's hard to tolerate his action (once again thank Itsuki for stopping it)

There's no inherent difference between Men and Gods except for Power and Acknowledgment of that power. The fact that Gods know of their power and set themselves above us is the difference that we use to judge them by 'different' standards. If Zeus walked among us as a man and knew not of his power, you can't judge him by Godly standards - because for all intents and purposes, he isn't a God. You cannot blame or judge people by actions they have no awareness that they are perpetrating. You cannot judge a sleepwalker's personality and action by the things they do while sleepwalking. "Devil Gods" and "Gods", before being considered "Devil Gods" and "Gods", are, at the first, Gods - and they know that they are, and do with their powers what they intend. Unlike Haruhi.
Ah, you're right, I was thinking of the Milgram experiment... In any case, it's still a false comparison because the Stanford Experiment suffered from a lot of unscientific principles, probably the most apt of which could be charitably determined as 'role-playing to expectations'. If your aim was to prove that 'humans are evil', big whoop. Humans are human.

Well, it's hard to bring out an example since most of "newer" and known religions have God as a miracle and power figure, rather than to explain the phenomenon that no one can explain (like in the case of Haruhi). I will try to bring up one (well it will be better to read from wiki but i'm kind of lazy now). You probably knows about the Greek Mythology of Hades and how he love the Goddess of Spring, and she run away with him until she realise her absence make the Earth run out of Spring (another version said her mother is Goddess of Winter get angry.. but still it same cause and same result). These kind of story have many version (even one from Japanese methodology i think) but just want to prove my point: "God can still be seen by human as God even when they jsut play around and do not even realise their power".
About the last point, i brought out the experiment (and real world events associated with it) to enforce my points: "if human do not have righteous and restraint (of power), then i will say human is evil". Haruhi does not have any physical restriction of power to stop her . Still, what keep her far from evil is her strong righteous and "common sense". It's off our standard by few degrees, but it's absurd to describe her with words such as "sociopathy" or psychopathy while she shows an impressive restraint in power

[DonZabu]

Man, I wanted to see Haruhi get hit.
I mean, I know that's not how it goes even in the novel, but Haruhi's become such an unlikeable jerkass as of late that the prospect of rebellion is an extremely attractive story prospect.

[Akka]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

What Kyon did is selfish because he want Haruhi to be the one he want her to be, not because it will does any help to her in the future. In this case, we can sympathise because we all (except some) want a more adorable Haruhi. However when that selfish can cause trouble to (or destroy) the world then it's hard to tolerate his action (once again thank Itsuki for stopping it)

Seems you don't understand the very idea that the importance of Kyon is precisely that he's treating Haruhi like a "normal" girl, and not one with godlike powers.
And you are mixing prudence and selflessness, which makes no sense.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Akka

Seems you don't understand the very idea that the importance of Kyon is precisely that he's treating Haruhi like a "normal" girl, and not one with godlike powers.
And you are mixing prudence and selflessness, which makes no sense.

Since you brought them up, how about you explain those points then....

[Khu]

Well, I guess on the "normal" girl side, he's treating her like he'd treat a bratty sister who is constantly hitting another person (lol). The fist should've been a slap, but maybe he got too riled up over Haruhi being constantly bossy and spoilt.

[Silverwyrm]

Favorite part this season, glad they did this EP right, the anger really got across well to me, for both of them.

Really wish we didn't get endless endless 8 for the first part =/

Also, really liked her quickly dropping that ponytail that was cute

[Jintor]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

About the 2nd point, I doubt the situation can be interpreted as Kyon want Haruhi to grow up. Anyway let assume it is. Then in that case Haruhi won't really need to grow up for her own good anyway. She's quite modest herself. Then any obstacle will either be cleaned out by her power or the espers group ( i always wonder if they have SP to protect Haruhi all this time). If she want to have an older moe girl to be her toy or slave, literally (THat screen would be kind of erotic ) then she wil get it. In fact it's more reality in the real world to have whatever you want within your power domain even when it cross all of the ethical barriers.

What Kyon did is selfish because he want Haruhi to be the one he want her to be, not because it will does any help to her in the future. In this case, we can sympathise because we all (except some) want a more adorable Haruhi. However when that selfish can cause trouble to (or destroy) the world then it's hard to tolerate his action (once again thank Itsuki for stopping it)

I don't think Kyon was justified in hitting Haruhi in any circumstance (though it obviously highlights the depths of his feelings at this point in time), but Kyon doesn't 'want Haruhi to be what he wants her to be'. He wants her to grow up, and I can't see how almost all of his actions can't be viewed in this fashion. And I don't see how you can think that Haruhi doesn't need to grow up, because - especially throughout the Sighs arc - it's been all about her.

I think a central theme of Haruhi is the conflict between fantasy escapism (and selfishness) and reality (or possibly, just 'caring about other people' or perhaps acknowledging that other people may be just as important as you), and that there can and should be a 'balance' between the two - but Kyon (as we know him) and Haruhi represent the two 'extremes' (though throughout the story both are moving towards this 'balance' imho).

In fact it's more reality in the real world to have whatever you want within your power domain even when it cross all of the ethical barriers.

What does this meaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan?

Well, it's hard to bring out an example since most of "newer" and known religions have God as a miracle and power figure, rather than to explain the phenomenon that no one can explain (like in the case of Haruhi). I will try to bring up one (well it will be better to read from wiki but i'm kind of lazy now). You probably knows about the Greek Mythology of Hades and how he love the Goddess of Spring, and she run away with him until she realise her absence make the Earth run out of Spring (another version said her mother is Goddess of Winter get angry.. but still it same cause and same result). These kind of story have many version (even one from Japanese methodology i think) but just want to prove my point: "God can still be seen by human as God even when they jsut play around and do not even realise their power".

Greek Gods in particular tend to act like Humans with Superpowers (and thus are generally judged by "Human with Superpowers" standards), Persephone was abducted by Hades, and - especially with the Greek Gods - the thing is that Demeter was fully aware of what she was doing (destroying the Earth in her grief) but, well, in her despair, she didn't really give a damn. Demeter was never treated as an 'average human being', Demeter was and always was a Goddess (tbh there's probably no comparative myths you can raise, since I don't know of any Gods who weren't always treated as Gods, or who were 'unaware' of their power at any point in time).

About the last point, i brought out the experiment (and real world events associated with it) to enforce my points: "if human do not have righteous and restraint (of power), then i will say human is evil". Haruhi does not have any physical restriction of power to stop her . Still, what keep her far from evil is her strong righteous and "common sense". It's off our standard by few degrees, but it's absurd to describe her with words such as "sociopathy" or psychopathy while she shows an impressive restraint in power

Well I don't agree that she's a sociopath either, but I still think your reference was misplaced - the Stanford Prison Experiment was a clusterfsck of unscientific principles that in the end didn't methodolically 'prove' anything.

I'd also like to extent a plea that for the love of gods please think through your grammar before posting, it's very difficult to understand a lot of the quite complex arguements you are putting before me. Your locational data says Australia, your spelling is pretty much perfect, I'm assuming you're fluent in English, but your posts are this morass or quagmire of pain. Please - for the sake of my brain - proofread. > >

[EGFontanilla]

Can't wait for the disappearance. I haven't read the novels yet, but it's the title of the second series so I'm expecting it's really good.

[Akka]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

Since you brought them up, how about you explain those points then....

Seems pretty self-explanatory for me...
He's treating Haruhi like someone should be : putting limits when she is abusive, attempting to punish her when she behave badly.
He's the "control man", the "regulator", which keep her in check, and also the only one who allows her to grow as a human being.

Your part about Kyon "being selfish" because he treat Haruhi as a human and not a God is simply senseless. It's not selfish to teach people how to behave, and having godlike powers or not has nothing to do with it.
Others cave in because they fear that Haruhi would go ballistic and damage the world if they don't follow her command - that's prudence, not "not being selfish".

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Jintor

I don't think Kyon was justified in hitting Haruhi in any circumstance (though it obviously highlights the depths of his feelings at this point in time)
..............
Your locational data says Australia, your spelling is pretty much perfect, I'm assuming you're fluent in English, but your posts are this morass or quagmire of pain. Please - for the sake of my brain - proofread. > >

What's a hard-to-please fellow.....
.....thank to you now i have to proofread my essay.... >_>

Originally Posted by Akka

Seems pretty self-explanatory for me...
He's treating Haruhi like someone should be : putting limits when she is abusive, attempting to punish her when she behave badly.
He's the "control man", the "regulator", which keep her in check, and also the only one who allows her to grow as a human being.
Your part about Kyon "being selfish" because he treat Haruhi as a human and not a God is simply senseless. It's not selfish to teach people how to behave, and having godlike powers or not has nothing to do with it.
Others cave in because they fear that Haruhi would go ballistic and damage the world if they don't follow her command - that's prudence, not "not being selfish".

How Kyon behave is based on his society, which is constructed by Haruhi (theoretically). We can have a world where every human being have to be such a jerkass to "grow up" if she really want to (actually our world is not that far away).

Kyon try to maintain his "ideal" world where Haruhi have to follow his values to be considered as "grow up". That's why it's selfish

[Lost-Wisdom]

It just keeps getting better and better.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

How Kyon behave is based on his society, which is constructed by Haruhi (theoretically). We can have a world where every human being have to be such a jerkass to "grow up" if she really want to (actually our world is not that far away).

Kyon try to maintain his "ideal" world where Haruhi have to follow his values to be considered as "grow up". That's why it's selfish

Kyon doesn't HAVE to have Haruhi follow his values, but if that's what Haruhi wants then Kyon doesn't need to stay by her side either. Sure, if Haruhi wants to magically make Kyon love her, so be it, but she knows how meaningless that would be.

Kyon has been a member of SOS-dan by his own free will. He can walk out by his own free will. No God or Devil is going to tell him otherwise. If Haruhi want Kyon to ever talk to her again, she better learn some ground rules.

If Haruhi wants a relationship, she would get one. There is a price to pay for that, god or not.

[Lost-Wisdom]

The built up when it came to the argument scene was simply superb. All the lines felt right and real. It didn't seem out of place and I was engrossed by it.

Wow, serious Kyon and Haruhi. Two peas in a pod right?

Feel really sorry about Mikuru now.

[Akka]

Originally Posted by Lost-Wisdom

It just keeps getting better and better.

In a very twisted sort of way, I guess we can say that.

[risingstar3110]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Kyon doesn't HAVE to have Haruhi follow his values, but if that's what Haruhi wants then Kyon doesn't need to stay by her side either. Sure, if Haruhi wants to magically make Kyon love her, so be it, but she knows how meaningless that would be.

Kyon has been a member of SOS-dan by his own free will. He can walk out by his own free will. No God or Devil is going to tell him otherwise. If Haruhi want Kyon to ever talk to her again, she better learn some ground rules.

If Haruhi wants a relationship, she would get one. There is a price to pay for that, god or not.

The episode proves that even when Haruhi did not follow what he always want her to be, Kyon still can't walk away (as he ended up have to back down). Why? Because he understand Haruhi more than the majority of us here, and even when he put it tough, he still had to regret his moment.
There's a million ways to affect and change Haruhi, but surely not by acting out of rage and punch or hit her.

About the last point, you are wrong. How can we be so sure of that? Because Kyon failed to(thank to Itsuki) but she would still get Kyon by the end (hopefuly)

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by risingstar3110

The episode proves that even when Haruhi did not follow what he always want her to be, Kyon still can't walk away (as he ended up have to back down). Why? Because he understand Haruhi more than the majority of us here, and even when he put it tough, he still had to regret his moment.
There's a million ways to affect and change Haruhi, but surely not by acting out of rage and punch or hit her.

About the last point, you are wrong. How can we be so sure of that? Because Kyon failed to(thank to Itsuki) but she would still get Kyon by the end (hopefuly)

Kyon didn't forgive Haruhi because she is God; Kyon forgive Haruhi because she is human.

My point is that your argument, that Haruhi can't be wrong because she is divine, is entirely meaningless. She can, and was, wrong, because she angered the one person she cared about.

God powers can't make the wrong, right. Haruhi can't magically make Kyon approve of her actions. If Haruhi wants Kyon to hang around, divine powers is not enough. She needs to offer something in return.

What did Haruhi offer in the end, after Sigh? The veto power. She has to make his opinion count.

This reminded me of a character from Discworld, who is in a relationship with his wife much the same way Kyon is with Haruhi. The wife gets to have her way all the time, except when the husband truly insists.

Kyon wants to continue to be with Haruhi, because he knows she isn't evil, just immature. But Kyon isn't an accessory to a god. You just can't have a relationship where the opinions from one side was completely ignored.

This is what the entire Sigh was about. The setting that allows the rest of the story to continue, that let Kyon rest easy, knowing that in the end, Haruhi respects him.

[Jintor]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

This reminded me of a character from Discworld, who is in a relationship with his wife much the same way Kyon is with Haruhi. The wife gets to have her way all the time, except when the husband truly insists.

Kyon = Vimes?

Awesome.

[Bri]

Best..episode...ever...

Great to see the dark side of Haruhi. With great power must come great responsibility, right? But what if the person wielding them is unaware?

The writers really show great insight in the human condition. In a way Kyon saves Haruhi from going over to the dark side, as her powers left her with a moral vacuum. It makes her indifferent to suffering she causes as there are no consequences, things will just go her way. Scary to see a relatively normal person could so easily stoop to harming others if there are no consequences to actions. This episode really is about the evils of man.

Kyon shows Koizumi a lesson 'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". Yet he is made aware of his own flaws as well, as an intelligent capable person he can't get away with being reactive and berating Haruhi all the time. Haruhi makes mistakes but she constantly takes action and makes things happen.

The irony of Mikuru being aware that she is a nothing more then a moe plaything even in the anime itself is just too hilarious. Once again TMHS gives us great sci-fi with simple means.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Bri

Scary to see a relatively normal person could so easily stoop to harming others if there are no consequences to actions.

... Are you calling Haruhi a relatively normal person?