2010-08-13, 15:20 | Link #961 | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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Ark, you didn't answer your contradiction: Can an HE RPG round take out a cyborg or no? You claim it can't with Subaru, and claim it can with Nove and the others. Answer this contradiction.
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But you only have to show a type-3 interfacing to prove your point. I'll wager you can't. Quote:
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How about we assume it was actually a very small explosion, like a firecracker, and maybe Subaru just tripped backwards and fell through the rubble? Quote:
I was only stepping back to try and show how your reasoning was flawed. But it's okay, we can drop this point, and I can accept that you think Vita is a dumbass. I don't agree with it, but I can understand why you might think so. Quote:
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http://www.mangafox.com/manga/mahou_...1/c004/13.html Einhart punches Nove in the stomach hard enough to launch her into the air with no magic symbol and no glow for magic. And before you try to explain this one away, realize I can toss a half-a-dozen more at you, which means you'll have to invent different explanations for each and every one of them. Occam's razor; which is simpler? A complex explanation for each? Or a single theory that unites all of them under one? Plenty of magic attacks without glow or symbol, and you having to invent different explanations for each one of them. "It can't be magic! It, uh, has to be hidden, yeah, that's right!" *new example* "It can't be magic! It, uh, has to be a mistake on her part!" *another example* "It's magic, but the author just forgot to color the glow!" *another example* "It's not magic! It's, uh, she's just a really strong girl, and her muscles are well-hidden!" How many different excuses do you feel like making? Although, I do admit it will be fun listening to all of them. Quote:
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Electrons get stripped off a beam in transit. Radiation disperses. You send 5MW of power out, and not all of it goes directly to target, but heads off in other directions. Quote:
You're thinking too hard. I've only gone this far because I'm having a lot of fun debating this stuff. =) Quote:
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And again, you ignored the question of whether an RPG can take a cyborg out or not. I'm waiting for your answer, before I showcase a few links that will most likely debunk any explanation you come up with, so try to choose your words carefully. =) |
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2010-08-14, 03:34 | Link #962 | |||||||||||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Round is fired, long delay to impact. This confirms that the round has a low velocity, which is actually a reasonable consequence of its mounting so don't turn on your denial there like most people. Now, our Miriage tells us this round can kill a tank. What kind of tank can a 30-45mm HE round, shot at low velocity, kill? Probably a light tank or a tankette, maybe even a "war wagon" (Kampfwagen = sensya). Certainly, it won't defeat over 200mm of armor. She then tells us a mage shouldn't survive it, which goes on to confirm what we can begin to surmise by the time we hear "HE". Now we see Subaru survive it, with perhaps less clothing damage than we predicted. Go on to revise the estimate of yield downwards, and along with the "war wagon". Quote:
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Your solution basically ignores the last line the Miriage said, so even if that's true, it doesn't make you better. As for me, I just agilely use the maneuvering room provided by the imprecision of the "tank" line. Quote:
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Further, while you say you have more, you should not have misidentified WHO was providing the power to leap into the air for your vanguard example. Nove was punched in the gut, and to separate kicked the floor and leapt up herself. Finally, as I said, the entire idea Precia used magic is unfalsifiable. Even if I smoothly handle all six of your examples, you will simply insist there are ways for Precia to use magic covertly, even though we see no sign and no reason for it. (By the way, that Fate's barrier jacket was torn is not a reason since that's the subject being checked). So instead, prove that there is a high probability Precia used magic (not just "it is possible") in her whipping. Besides, I don't know why a person who has to imagine his MGLN as faster and more powerful than it really is to enjoy it wants "magic" to be the explanation anyway. (There's no scientific necessity so it is a personal desire). I mean, S-rank Precia is using magic after magic as she whips Fate with only a barrier jacket and Fate isn't dead? Not being blown left and right across the room? If you want to blame the magic powered binds (again, glowing) then why aren't her wrists coming out of their sockets. Only superficially wounded and still conscious? Wow, the limitations of magic itself are on the table. I guess you'll now say Precia controlled herself ... controlled herself until from what we see we can't clearly distinguish any use of magic. Which makes the whole point of whether she used magic almost moot - she used magic so she can whip Fate ... like a guy who isn't using magic! On the calculation this would be equivalent to a non-magical physical whipping! Quote:
Second, the conclusion you should start facing is that Nanoha and Vita are strong, but even strong mages don't get shanked (physical attack) and come out of it in decent shape. Quote:
Besides, after you basically stated that the Miriage can't be right in her assessment that the blast would have killed a mage and that Shamal was wrong to call Nanoha only "slightly less capable" (you seem to think she was near dead), and after you called the explanation in the manga not quite exact, your sudden literal faith in a particular line in the booklet is ... amusing. Quote:
In any case, Wendi agrees. Teana agrees so resorts to sneak attacks and even then Deed climbs up in a short time. The marginal effectiveness is obvious. Quote:
A reasonable scenario does not involve placing one side in a situation that is created because of tactics based around very different means. It is like me saying Guns are better and you saying Swords are better, and you saying "What if you get into a close range fight with a gun against a swordsman". Quote:
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2010-08-14, 10:53 | Link #963 | |||||||||||||||||
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So which are you going with? Is magic used when it isn't shown? Or is it not? I mean, we can both admit we don't know one way or the other, but at least be consistent in your theory. Myself, I assume magic is used both cases. Quote:
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So the only things we can rely on for sure, is just that it's a High Explosive round that could take out a tank. Velocity, firing time, etc. means nothing. Quote:
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http://science.howstuffworks.com/rpg3.htm "The "original" RPG -- based on the German Panzerfaust anti-tank weapon... The most commonly launched grenades are a High Explosive(HE) or High Explosive Anti Tank (HEAT) rounds." And so you claim that firing an HE or HEAT round can take out a cyborg... but not take out a cyborg mage. Hmmm... what is the single difference between a cyborg and cyborg mage.... |
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2010-08-14, 11:55 | Link #964 | ||||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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By the way, since I think I was saying active defense was the way Fate stayed alive well before you came into this board, I won't say I'm changing my reasoning. Quote:
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I see you've failed to meet my challenge of showing the Cyborg's protective ability, so I guess I can safely say that RPGs can kill cyborgs (which are substantially more resillent than mages). |
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2010-08-14, 14:46 | Link #965 | ||||||||||||
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The problem is you want to say, "It happened this way, no ifs, ands, or buts." But in order to make that statement, you have to back it up with proof, and so far, you haven't. That pretty much works with the rest of your many varied and inconsistent theories. You want to have your cake and eat it, too, and it doesn't quite work that way. Quote:
When the stage magician does his tricks, they appear to be magic, because they seemingly bend the laws of physics and reality. Once you apply science and understand the trick, it ceases to be magic. Thus, you can have one or the other, but not both; it's a binary choice. And you really can't separate the BJ from the auto-barrier, since it's insanely difficult to tell what each is doing. About the only case where an auto-barrier was used that a BJ wasn't, was when Teana took Vice's bike out. If they had crashed, I supposed it would have been a nice test case, but nothing happened. Everytime an auto-barrier has been stressed, a BJ has been present, so it's impossible to figure out which does which. Quote:
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"But no! Subaru was hit with a firecracker! Please, let's stick with the firecracker explanation, because it's the only way my theory makes sense!" And you know what, you're right! Your whole theory is "Everyone is stupid" so why should the mariage be any different? Obviously, in a fit of stupidity, it fired a firecracker at Subaru, and was totally surprised she survived! Man, I love this theory! I have only to assume everyone is an idiot, and everything works so great! |
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2010-08-14, 15:09 | Link #966 | |
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Magic is one of these things. Take the DBE 'doesn't lose power over distance' case. People are quick to point out that energy doesn't work this way, but the quote is pretty clear on it. What it means is quite simple: Magic doesn't work like regular energy. And why should it? It's an entirely different form of energy, why should it work the way regular energy does? We already know magic can do things impossible by regular science. It can bring conscious awareness to normally unaware plantlife, it can allow creatures to grow to sizes biologically impossible, it can transport objects through solid matter over large distances, it can resurrect objects even after their total destruction, it can impart memories of past lives to descendants, and the list just keeps growing. So with this list, why then is the idea that magic can block heavy attacks through scientifically impossible means so ridiculous? |
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2010-08-14, 19:23 | Link #967 | |
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But when we're given example after example of mages surviving mass-based attacks, it kinda weakens the argument that mass-based is as good as one might think. Obviously, this is up to a point, as a nuke would most likely take out mages. But bullets, RPG's, missiles, shells, etc. clearly don't prove much of a threat; Jail needed AMF for his drones to even begin to reach a parity with red shirt mages. Anyway, as someone with a deep love of science myself, I contend that we don't have enough information to quantify Nanohaverse magic exactly yet. We can put up some comparisons, and realize it's clearly fairly versatile and powerful, but not enough to explain everything. Someone is more than welcome to fill in blanks with guesses, presumably with regards to fanfiction to make a story (I did some similar things), but it's not canon. And as a scientist, until I see hard data on the nature of magical particles, I am forced to accept magic for what it is: magic. As the name implies, it's inherently mysteriously. |
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2010-09-05, 11:25 | Link #968 |
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Personally, I'm more of the opinion that the Bureau doesn't actively guard against mass-based threats simply because those aren't the threats it's been facing.
Gadgets aside, all the threats we've seen in the anime series have been magic users; because of the the Bureau will then orient towards dealing with magic-using threats. To use the example of beat cops: beat cops in the UK wear stab vests, body armor designed to protect against stabbing and knives, because those are the threats they face there - the level of gun crime is very low. Cops in Iraq, on the other hand, wear ballistic vests, because every Tom, Dick and Harry has an AK-47 over there. Different threats, different protection orientation. To be fair, mass-based weapons have certain advantages. There's no power discharge to tip off your targets, and they're great at setting ambushes. Magic gives you more versatility in that you can quickly reconfigure your device to fit different attack profiles, as well as more endurance and simpler logistics - all you need to do is to make sure your mages are well-fed and healthy. *sighs* OH well, as the Reverend Professor has said before, this is all my fault. I had OCs who were stubborn gun users who wanted to keep their guns, damnit, and the Bureau only gets their guns from their cold dead fingers. That said, the situations where I envision conventional weapons being of best use against mages generally won't be showing up anytime soon - I tend to envision these situations as houses wired to blow, or ambush points with machine guns, smoke, grenades, claymores, IEDs... ...actually, IEDs would be a problem on Orussia, I'd think...
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2010-09-08, 04:12 | Link #970 | |
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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This is, of course, ignoring the fact that one of the TSAB's goals is to root out mass-based weaponry. They were founded with the idea that they would face mass-based weaponry, and so far every single time they encountered mass-based weaponry, be it gadget drones firing missiles, the poacher taking shots at Erio or mirage firing anti-tank shells at Subaru in SSX, the mass-based weapon just plainly lost. The only really logical explanation why every criminal and their mother isn't just throwing themselves on mass-based weapons and using them to pulverize the TSAB is simply because magic can guard against them. And quite efficiently too. Last edited by Keroko; 2010-09-08 at 06:06. |
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2010-09-08, 08:22 | Link #971 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Actually, if we are to take those examples to say that magic can guard against mass, then we may as well take all the data in the example, which leads to a conclusion that if magic wins against mass in the TSAB worlds, it is to a great extent because the mass weapons employed simply lack the advantages they do in the real world. They lack speed, they have long warning times, and apparently they don't even have all that much power.
I suppose if you close your eyes to enough aspects of canon performance in the Nanoverse, you can come up with a solution where magiweapons are superior in all categories, but that has little resemblance to what is shown. |
2010-09-08, 09:24 | Link #972 |
~ Your Smile ~
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: 346Pro
Age: 38
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So... The mass-weapons suck because whoever made them made them really shit?
Or is this just proof that what we accept as fact just cannot apply to a grossly-inaccurate anime in which even reality and the laws of physics themselves have been left aside for the Rule of Cool, magic AND science included? The same Rule of Cool that has left the magical girl fans facepalming and mechaboys squealing? The same RoCthat is used every Batman corner of the series that surmounts even the best tactics? Which I do recall was being put forward as the reason why these debates do nothing other than go around in circles. In Nanoha, RoC rules... and nothing was made to reign it in.
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2010-09-08, 10:22 | Link #973 | |
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Which breaks the whole "logic" thing. And the whole "Occam's Razor" thing. But you don't seem to let those minor things get in the way.... |
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2010-09-08, 10:34 | Link #974 | |
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Once again you fall back to framerates and counting seconds, while ignoring that doing so will cause nearly any anime out there to have crappy technology. Macross missiles slow to a crawl, bullets suddenly lose their speeds etc. etc. All the while creating gargantuan plotholes in the anime you're trying to explain as well. Last edited by Keroko; 2010-09-08 at 11:15. |
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2010-09-08, 10:46 | Link #975 | |
He Who Smites Shippers
Join Date: Mar 2008
Age: 36
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2010-09-08, 13:30 | Link #976 |
Σ(。д°(o--(ಠ益ಠ )
Author
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Hotsprings Resort
Age: 37
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I'm gonna regret this but...
The weapons used by the troops in the first few chapters of Force suggest that they really like the M16 line of assault rifles. That or whoever designed it for their troops was a reincarnation of Eugene Stoner.
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2010-09-08, 13:38 | Link #977 |
Secret Society BLANKET
Graphic Designer
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: 3 times the passion of normal flamenco
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3rd suggestion: (un)licensed manufacturing - someone got the plans for the M16A1 and starting producing and selling it. Why spend time, money and brains trying to come up with a new concept weapon when you have an already successful weapon design you can just rip-off... like most third-world weapon manufacturers do today?
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2010-09-08, 13:59 | Link #978 | |
Σ(。д°(o--(ಠ益ಠ )
Author
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Hotsprings Resort
Age: 37
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2010-09-08, 14:02 | Link #979 |
Friendly Satanist
Join Date: May 2009
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I don't see what the problem with that theory is. If they lack expertise in designing firearms themselves, simply producing them from an existing design would be a logical starting point, at least. Of course, this is assuming they didn't just pop over and steal a bunch of the actual guns.
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2010-09-08, 17:13 | Link #980 |
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Another explanation: form follows function. There is usually always a "most efficient" method for designing your chemically-propelled projectile weapons. Creating gunpowder should be trivial for anyone with a mild knowledge base in chemistry. Following that, the rest of the weapon would gradually evolve into something we have today on Earth.
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