The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya - Episode 14 Discussion / Poll [2009 added ep. 4]

[Ithekro]

So what we have so far is:
Week 1: Normal Ending
Week 2: Bad Ending
Week 3: "What do you mean I don't have all the light orbs?" Ending
Week 4: ???
Week 5: Profit (Sighs)

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by daisekihan

What's really irritating is that they're actually being unfaithful to the short story even with this iteration---the 15,498th is the last time it repeats. Furthermore, the story only covers the final recurrence, so you could basically say that the past three episodes have essentially been filler (assuming, God willing, that the fourth will be the last).

Well, the reason for this deviation from the novels seems pretty straightforward. If you actually know how many times it's going to repeat, it removes the sense of the unknown. It introduces a comfortable sense of assurance, like "at least I can take comfort in knowing it'll all be over soon". Because you have a substantial portion of the Japanese audience who has read the novels, this was a very deliberate move directed at them (because the non-novel-readers wouldn't have cared what number the loop was; to them the effect is the same). It was the only way of achieving the desired effect even among those who knew the source material, and I think that was the whole point.

Originally Posted by daisekihan

The main thing that I think discredits this idea is that, like I said, the story only covers the last time. If Tanigawa had actually written the story four times with slight variations, their might be reason for it. Variations of imagery and perspective could be meaningful if we felt that they reflected something meaningful about the story or the characters---but that's not the case, because all these non-15498th repetitions are just something the animators made up.

I'm not sure I can buy this argument entirely. One could also argue that the experience of the novel reader is incomplete, because it doesn't sufficiently convey the frustration of the time loop and just jumps to the conclusion for the purpose of advancing the plot. If there was purpose in the time loop and the near 15,500 loops to begin with, then it isn't just the last loop that matters. Otherwise it's sort "oh yeah, take our word for it -- she's frustrated as hell because they've all lived this 15,000+ times". Now, in a small way, they're showing us what it's like. So I'm not sure that the "it can't matter because it wasn't in the novels" argument is totally sufficient. It was in the novels, they just didn't show it (excusing the "15,498" argument for the reason I outlined above). So your argument makes sense in the "it wasn't really needed to advance the plot" sense (obviously), but this isn't just about advancing the story either. (Call it "deliberately inefficient", perhaps.)

Originally Posted by daisekihan

I don't think this will be emulated or thought of as being a bold, daring move down the line. It's like the Pepsi Clear of adaptation concepts---people hate it from the get-go, and only remember it later on because of how bad it was.

Well, I obviously don't hate it, but at the same time I don't think it's very likely to be directly emulated -- it's a concept only Haruhi can pull off convincingly, I think. It's one of those ideas that's almost more brilliant in the abstract than in the concrete (like the episode order thing, which was cool the first time, but lead to a lot of confusion, hence it being gone in the re-broadcast). But time will tell what impact it'll have. I guess you could call it "experimental art", and that's why I like it. The frustration we're seeing is a case of life imitating art.

[Ashlotte]

Well I can appreciate a time loop story...Hell one of my favorite movies is Groundhog Day...But does everyone defending this episode really think this was the best way to express the story at hand?

Atleast the second episode in this series of loops was interesting and added onto what came before, but this one felt completely gratuitous and a borderline publicity stunt. It didn't even make any attempt to add on what had been developed upon in earlier episodes rather seeming merely content to repeat what came before with subpar animation.

So yea I like the idea, but the execution this time around fell flat on its face for me. If the intent was to allow people to feel a sampling of the emotions that the characters are going through by exposing us to the same repeating environment I think they did well enough establishing that during the second go round no?

P.S. No I am not a novel reader and no I'm not chomping at the bit to see the story advanced to whatever part everyone seems to be begging for...Just a poor schmuck who likes a good story and doesn't wanna feel like I just utterly wasted half an hour of my life.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Now on the "still shot of 10 minute on a mayonnaise pot" used as argument, I'll point to Once Upon a Time in the West where the viewers had gone through 10 mins before the arrival of the train, 10 mins watching guys waiting and a mosquito pissing off one of the aforementioned guys. You don't know what is slow pacing and stills until you have seen that excellent movie.

Hah! I still remember the first time I saw that Italian-made Western... one of my first experiences with a film sensibility one didn't see much in American film -- gave the ensuing violence a hell of a lot of impact.

Originally Posted by Ashlotte

.But does everyone defending this episode really think this was the best way to express the story at hand?

Well, in my case - I don't know that I'm "defending" the episode. Personally I think the total range of responses being posted here are entirely appropriate - both negative and positive. What I find fascinating is the intensity of the various responses. Hate to say this, but that's the kind of stuff an artist just eats up: intense reactions.

[GuidoHunter_Toki]

Originally Posted by Ashlotte

Well I can appreciate a time loop story...Hell one of my favorite movies is Groundhog Day...But does everyone defending this episode really think this was the best way to express the story at hand?

Atleast the second episode in this series of loops was interesting and added onto what came before, but this one felt completely gratuitous and a borderline publicity stunt. It didn't even make any attempt to add on what had been developed upon in earlier episodes rather seeming merely content to repeat what came before with subpar animation.

Well this episode was defenitely my least favorite of all the time loop episodes. Where the second time loop episode felt different while still being similar to the first, this latest one seemed almost identical to the previous (although it does amplify the effect of irritation the viewer must be feeling, thus further relating to the character's feelings). As long as they end this with the next episode I'll be forgiving, but I doubt I'd be if Kyoani drags it along any more than that, because while it adds to the effect there is only so much I can stand.

Originally Posted by Sheba

Now on the "still shot of 10 minute on a mayonnaise pot" used as argument, I'll point to Once Upon a Time in the West where the viewers had gone through 10 mins before the arrival of the train, 10 mins watching guys waiting and a mosquito pissing off one of the aforementioned guys. You don't know what is slow pacing and stills until you have seen that excellent movie.

Thats always been one of my favorite Western films. It was a great setup (you could say very rewarding) for what ensued after the long wait. When I watch that movie nowadays, that scene always feels very tense.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Ashlotte

Well I can appreciate a time loop story...Hell one of my favorite movies is Groundhog Day...But does everyone defending this episode really think this was the best way to express the story at hand?

I would only say: no, not to express the story at hand, but to truly convey the same sense of discomfort in the viewers. If they had just wrapped things up with this episode, everyone would have said "well, that was interesting" and moved on. Now they've created a genuine sense of unease bordering on discomfort (and, as we can see in this thread, genuine frustration and anger in some cases). If the purpose were just "make the point and move on", you're totally right. If the purpose is "make people feel on edge by all this repeating", then it was required. So I guess it depends on what you take as the point of this episode, I guess. And I'm also not sure if we can truly judge the point of the episode until we see where they're going with this. Again, I'm trying to take a long-term, big-picture view of this situation.

Originally Posted by Vexx

Hah! I still remember the first time I saw that Italian-made Western... one of my first experiences with a film sensibility one didn't see much in American film -- gave the ensuing violence a hell of a lot of impact.

A perhaps prophetic proclamation on your part.

Originally Posted by Vexx

Well, in my case - I don't know that I'm "defending" the episode. Personally I think the total range of responses being posted here are entirely appropriate - both negative and positive. What I find fascinating is the intensity of the various responses. Hate to say this, but that's the kind of stuff an artist just eats up: intense reactions.

I totally agree. I'm more fascinated by the intensity of the response than anything else. If it seems like I'm "defending the show", it's not because I'm trying to make people's frustration somehow "illegitimate" or "wrong", it's more because I think the frustration people are feeling is precisely what the artists were hoping to achieve by this episode. So perhaps we could say that that, even through this apparent failure, they have achieved a resounding success. It all depends on how you measure it.

[dnab]

As a novel reader: wow, and ouch!

[Jiggy]

I kind of wish I could evaluate this episode in a vacuum, but I can't give an honest rating because I almost couldn't stop laughing the whole time just out of amused disbelief that they took it this far with so little change from the second episode except music and a couple pieces of dialogue. (Huge points to Koizumi's "We've entered an endless recursion of time" line, by the way.)

I didn't feel sympathy, boredom, uneasiness, or anything similar, so if that's what they were aiming for then I'm not the one feeling it. But I think I like what I got even more: surprise, disbelief, and a total inability to figure out what will happen next.

[Ashlotte]

True relentless...And I wanted to refrain from making any snap judgments until they had finished telling the tale they were spinning here, but couldn't they have added something...ANYTHING to the episode like they afforded us in the second episode?

I know I know they dressed different and other minimal changes, but the spirit of the episode was basically copying the one before verbatim and leaving me with a distinct headache in the process. It still smacks too much of a stunt void of any intent at being a good bit of subversive art like the out of order episode airing from the first season or heck even the entire first episode of the first season itself.

Those to me were gutsy fun decisions that helped the show to gain fans...This is just...I dunno.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Ashlotte

It still smacks too much of a stunt void of any intent at being a good bit of subversive art like the out of order episode airing from the first season or heck even the entire first episode of the first season itself.

Those to me were gutsy fun decisions that helped the show to gain fans...This is just...I dunno.

I should perhaps say that I loved the first episode of the first season, and also considered it to be pure genius, and that was totally without having read the novels or having any clue what it was about, and before getting to the end. (It probably helps that I've made/edited amateur movies before. ) But that's another one of the things about this show where fandom is split, even if people have sort of come around to it in retrospect. I guess maybe it's just hit-or-miss? But I do think you can't experiment without taking risks. Even if people see this as a failure in the long run, I'll still give them props for trying. (And yeah, not saying the episode itself couldn't have been better done. I'm more amazed with the concept and its impact than the specific execution, I guess.)

[C.A.]

I'm not sure how many of you had that feeling of your chest tightening up when Kyon fails to stop Haruhi from leaving. To me, this response is what Kyoani wants the audience to experience.

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

1/10.What the fuck, seriously.

I'm not "quitting", because I have too much to do here, but I'm so fucking angry.

Yes, we don't know anything, "Just As Planned", hahaha.

So yeah, we're probably not getting anything but Endless Eight this season.

Congrats, KyoAni, you've just lost another fan.

Oh so much drama. The Blood God is pleased with the rage you exhibit. Now if you'll excuse me, I have Grey Knights to call...

Kidding asde, this is pretty much the reason why I never come into a series (even a new iteration of a franchise I love!) with expectations; without any, you never get disappointed.

[aulzon]

Was there any real difference between this episode than the previous one? Weren't we watching the same episode but from a different angle?

At least in the previous episode we had some revelations but this pretty much felt like we were watching the same episode.

I mean is this really no different from watching a rerun with small changes.

[Myssa Rei]

Now for the episode... Hmm, I don't really pay too much attention to episode credits, but who was the director this time around? The bloom and flare effects from Episode 03 aren't there anymore, for example.

It's a relatively minor quibble, I admit. Especially when you compare that to Kyon's massive failure. Seriously, short of of the 'Give Her Summer Memories (of the ecchi kind-- yes, I play eroge, it's a common trope!)', you'd thought he'd figured out by now what really needs to be done.

Spoiler for The Obvious Solution:

Seriously, asking for help on his summer assignments from Haruhi isn't THAT bad. Even disregarding the novels, everyone but Kyon can get the feeling that, with the Group activities done, all that's left is for Haruhi to do something ONLY with Kyon... even if it's just helping with schoolwork.

[C.A.]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Kidding asde, this is pretty much the reason why I never come into a series (even a new iteration of a franchise I love!) with expectations; without any, you never get disappointed.

I agree.

Even for original anime that's not an adaptation, people who expect things to happen almost always disappoint themselves.

Either they feel that the plot should go in a way they expect or certain characters to develop the way their think they should, they are the ones disappointing themselves when stuff eventually go a different way they expect.

Just a little but on animation for those who thinks these 3 episodes of Endless 8 looks too similar and that the animators are lazy:

An anime runs at 24 frames per second, each different frame takes hours to draw. Animators are paid by frames and they make measly cash.

Even if an episode has 10 minutes of totally unique frames, that's 14400 frames to draw. There is real work and effort in there to come up with characters interacting differently, wearing different clothes and stuff.

You can't just tilt a 2d picture and it becomes another angle, you have to redraw the entire picture over again.

Are they 'trolling' you, who watch the anime with no effort or are they 'trolling' themselves? The word 'troll' does not exist.

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Spoiler for The Obvious Solution:

Spoiler.

The problem is Kyon never thought of it in the first place, its not that he doesn't want to voice out.

[Guillotaku]

I can recall a DVD release in my country of a movie with an special structure that permits a random presentation of multiples segments of the story, so you can never watch two times "the same movie" (in theory, can be more than 3 millions of differents versions).

Can you imagine if Kyoani can make a DVD with Endless Eight in the same fashion, with hundreds and hundreds of different versions of the same episode... with only a few chances of view the final resolution?

http://axxon.com.ar/not/178/c-1784040.htm (in spanish)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax2RpHZ572o (Trailler)

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by aulzon

Was there any real difference between this episode than the previous one? Weren't we watching the same episode but from a different angle?.

Some lines were changed certainly.

[aulzon]

Just a little but on animation for those who thinks these 3 episodes of Endless 8 looks too similar and that the animators are lazy:

An anime runs at 24 frames per second, each different frame takes hours to draw. Animators are paid by frames and they make measly cash.

Even if an episode has 10 minutes of totally unique frames, that's 14400 frames to draw. There is real work and effort in there to come up with characters interacting differently, wearing different clothes and stuff.

You can't just tilt a 2d picture and it becomes another angle, you have to redraw the entire picture over again.

No one is naive enough to think you can recreate an animated show in a different angle just like that.

Just saying that there was no actual new information or plot development that was changed. Like it was a rerun.

[kb7]

I like the way KyoAni are approaching Endless Eight:

1. The Beginning of Endless Eight (norm)
2. The Realization of Endless Eight (deja vu)
3. The Frustration of Endless Eight (wft factor)
4. The Solution of Endless Eight (hopefully!)

Good storytelling to get the viewer involved.

[Sackett]

Well... this was a shock.

I just got done watching the subs, and here are my thoughts:

I thought using a 2nd episode to cover Endless Eight was great, and that going for a 3rd episode was genius. A fourth episode I am inclined to think is too much, and that's before seeing this iteration.

First, I think that the plan for this episode was to give almost exactly the same dialogue and plot as the second Endless Eight to an entirely different team of animators and director that would work independently from the first team- thus creating two episodes showing the loop with distinctly different styles.

This might have been effective enough to pull an irritated acceptance of a fourth Endless Eight episode- if this second team wasn't an epic failure.

I'll be blunt. The animation level was terrible- particularly coming on the heels of last week's episode.

Now I think the intention was with blurry drawing, and slightly "off" perspective, to emphasize the way this endless loop is starting to fray the minds of the SOS brigade. I got that- and if the characters had been finely drawn (like last week) to create a contrast it would have been effective. But this week we had human shaped blobs. Instead it felt cheesy and over the top.

Furthermore there was far too much use of stills and unmoving people. Again I think it was intended to create a surreal feeling- and there was one point were it was quite effective at doing that... but then they just kept on with the stills, until it just seemed like more lazy crappy animation.

Finally, the direction itself was way off. Kyon was too panicked by Mikuru's call, and Haruhi seemed off, so did Mikuru... and even Kozumi (his "I love you" line was terribly done- although I'll grant his "recursive" line was great), Yuki was okay (after all she's supposed to be off). It was clearly not just the voice actors either, it was the way the characters moved and stood. It all seemed over acted, and lacking any of the subtlety and depth that Haruhi usually has.

I think that overall describes this iteration. It was directed by someone who does not understand Haruhi. Instead of realizing that the brash abrasive over-the-top personality conceals more important subtle depths, this director accepted Haruhi at face value- and by giving her that depiction, short changed us all.

A well done iteration would have received a 7 ranking, despite my irritation. This bungling attempt receives a 4.5, which is mainly because I can see what the director was attempting to do, but I'm rounding down, because frankly, I expect more from Haruhi.

PS: I figure when it comes out on DVD I'll just skip this episode, as it will still work fine without it.