Brexit Vote

[DracoS]

Because we live in a democracy and political legitamacy is based in public surport of the leadership?

[Eisdrache]

Democracy has absolutely nothing to do with people being too lazy to inform themselves. Your entire argument basically boils down to 'I don't understand it and I refuse to learn about it, therefore it is not legitimate.' It doesn't even begin to make sense.

[DracoS]

Well the EU failure to engage with the general public of the UK effectively is why were getting Brexit, and why any attemps to stop or reverse it are kinda screwed in real terms. It wants all the power, but hasn't done enough to effectively communicate with the people it surpose to repersent, so it seen as undemocratic and distent.

Till that problum is sorted, good luck trying to keep the UK in the EU.

[Eisdrache]

You have several wrong assumptions:

We are getting the Brexit because the leave campaign had a campaign full of half-truths and outright lies from incompetent people like Farage and Johnson and the voters fell for it hook line and sinker. Also Cameron being a retard.

The EU wants to be powerful sure but these fantasies of an organization that wants to dominate its members are nonsense. Boohoo they are imposing a number of regulations on the country, how dare they. Let's not forget that the UK also benefited from being in the EU. And again, the EU has communicated openly but at least part of the UK closed both eyes and ears. No matter how often you repeat it, that's on the people and not on the EU. Communication requires two parties and the UK wasn't one.

The EU doesn't want the UK back. The voters voted in favor of leave and thus out they go. Good bye. Attempts to stop or reverse the process are currently failing because the UK government has NO CLUE what it is doing in the negotiations.

[MCAL]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8461771.html

YouTube

https://youtu.be/g8IVI0sZ6F8

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by MCAL

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8461771.html

IMO this goes hand in hand with this other piece of information:

New U.K. 'Brexit' chief: We may not pay exit fee if no deal is reached

So like many dine&dash-ers the UK government has their eyes firmly planted on the exit door. No doubt trumpo will sell them all those extra soybeans & pig the chinese no longer want, but we all know how "fair" he is with trade deals so will no doubt sell those with a price increase.

[Ithekro]

Well, there is always American foodstuffs.

[James Rye]

Seems UK lost over 80% of foreign Investments in their country. Down to 15 billions after having 66 last time.

[James Rye]

Looks like today's talks failed and now there won't be any Brexit deal discussion in the next Eu meeting. May gets threaten from all signs about no-deal or Backstop Plan for the Irish Boarder. Looks like it will be hard Brexit after all.

[judasmartel]

I have lost track of this issue, so why exactly the Brexit vote was in the alternative again? Was it the fear of foreign immigration to Britain, or was it the ordinary Briton not trusting EU?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by judasmartel

I have lost track of this issue, so why exactly the Brexit vote was in the alternative again? Was it the fear of foreign immigration to Britain, or was it the ordinary Briton not trusting EU?

Britons were lied to, and worse, the Britons wanted to believe in the lies.

Fear of immigration was one of those lies that have always been around for as long as humanity existed. The math never adds up, it is NEVER the immigrant's fault. History has shown us this over and over again. But people want to blame the immigrants, because then they don't have to blame themselves.

it takes two sides for a Con. The Con-man, and the Conned. The Conned are only able to be deceived because they want to believe in a lie. They want to believe Brexit would allow them to get more money, even though it isn't actually true.

[Arabesque]

Originally Posted by James Rye

Looks like today's talks failed and now there won't be any Brexit deal discussion in the next Eu meeting. May gets threaten from all signs about no-deal or Backstop Plan for the Irish Boarder. Looks like it will be hard Brexit after all.

To be clear, it is going to be a hard Brexit not due to the failure of reaching a deal at this point, but due to how every time there had been a total failure to reach any meaningful progress because of:

a) The UK side turning on their word a week later
b) The UK side not knowing what they want to do or get out of the situation
c) The fear that May would end up getting ousted as PM and a new PM would just null all the prior talks and agreements

That last point in particular is the one that had made the UK side in the negotiations so erratic and unpredictable. The UK didn't have the upper hand at all during the talks from day 0, but May having to fight in order to keep her position had really done a number on the UK side having a united front on the simplest of matters during negotiations. May had spent 2018 not trying to make sure that the UK gets the best possible deal out of getting out of the EU, but trying to make sure that half of her cabinet doesn't kick her out and stop the other half from resigning.

It says it all when the former Brexit minster is openly calling for the PM to be kicked out (not resign, but kicked out) of her position and the current Brexit minster to be in opposition to the PM over her plans for how a deal should or should not go.

But I suppose the madness must continue, until we are off the cliff edge.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Britons were lied to, and worse, the Britons wanted to believe in the lies.

Fear of immigration was one of those lies that have always been around for as long as humanity existed. The math never adds up, it is NEVER the immigrant's fault. History has shown us this over and over again. But people want to blame the immigrants, because then they don't have to blame themselves.

it takes two sides for a Con. The Con-man, and the Conned. The Conned are only able to be deceived because they want to believe in a lie. They want to believe Brexit would allow them to get more money, even though it isn't actually true.

I'm in agreement with your post, but the point about money stood out because of how much that bus ad is still absurd to this day



Not only is the UK already losing money, but what is coming next is going to be much worse in the very likely event of a no deal scenario. A lot of people are going to be hurt, and the worst thing is that it's not just going to be the people who wanted to believe the lies, but also the people who didn't want this and the immigrants who are about to end up without proper legal status in a country run by inept nutters.

[MeoTwister5]

I notice that bus is pictured near in a dumpsite. Coincidence?

[Arabesque]

https://www.ft.com/content/f4c0fd7e-...2-7574db66bcd5

Leo Varadkar, the Irish prime minister, acknowledged that no breakthrough would be made at the EU summit in Brussels. “I figure November, December is probably the best opportunity for a deal, but this is a dynamic situation — we’re always open to compromise,” he said.

I guess tomorrow isn't going to be that eventful, but at least May wont end up getting chewed out again.

December is going to be brutal however. Winter is Coming^TM.

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

I notice that bus is pictured near in a dumpsite. Coincidence?

Garbage goes in the dumpsite, so it is only appropriate.

[DracoS]

Originally Posted by judasmartel

I have lost track of this issue, so why exactly the Brexit vote was in the alternative again? Was it the fear of foreign immigration to Britain, or was it the ordinary Briton not trusting EU?

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/sta...ion-statistics I think this graph partly helps explain the issue.

Immigration has been at a much higher rate since the late 90s... and things like housing haven't been keeping up. Furthermore, a lot of that immigration has been from the eastern EU, whose people have lower wage expectations, which ensures wages keep at bargain basement levels and in the low skill part of the market especially, that it's very very easy to hire/fire. This has created a lot of bad feeling, especialy with the less well off.

The other major element that lead to a Leave vote, is the lack of public engagement in the political aspects of the EU. MEP are not household names (except funny enough the Eurosceptic ones) and EU politics have mostly failed reach the kitchen table level of discussion or general media debate.

This has lead to many considering the EU undemocratic, as they don’t feel their part of its decision-making process or there being listen too. Throw in a EU that wants more power and successive UK governments that liked to pretend the EU was a just a trading block with optional political elements, and it was pretty obvious that it wasn’t going to end well.

[James Rye]

Oh boy, looks like something made it through the negotiators from EU and UK and the UI cabinet accept the paper as well. This is the furthest they ever got. I don't think it will ever get a majority in the UK parliament but hey, at least the EU tried.

[Anh_Minh]

It'd be funny if it passes. All that just to lose their voice in the EU.

[Arabesque]

The draft for the deal that May had spent so much time fighting with her minsters about today is out, but it's down due to all the world downloading it lol

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/file...vember-2018_en

585 pages of all sorts of crazy details, and not crazy details.

The short version: it's the Norway deal, but worse for the UK, and Northern Ireland will have different regulations to not disrupt it's relation with RoI, so it will be Hong Kong circa British Rule.

Dunno how she will manage to get this through parliament, but the situation is changing still, so who knows, maybe enough people will be convinced this is the "best" option and vote for it, maybe Labour will come and save her at the end of the day. But one thing is for sure, the DUP will not be voting on this in favour.

Originally Posted by James Rye

Oh boy, looks like something made it through the negotiators from EU and UK and the UI cabinet accept the paper as well. This is the furthest they ever got. I don't think it will ever get a majority in the UK parliament but hey, at least the EU tried.

We were at this very stage last year when a trade deal was agreed upon, only for next month to be withdrawn because the question of what will happen to Northern Ireland was brought up

May's cabinet might have agreed on supporting the deal, but that doesn't mean much at this point outside of them thinking it might get through. The reality is that the draft agreement ignores Scotland, it creates a border between NI and the rest of the UK, the UK population is going to lose freedom of movement, the fisheries in the UK are about to lose access and advantage to their EU counterparts, and all sorts of nasty losses to the UK side that have all been clear from day one, but now they need to be presented as victories to save face.

"It's going to be this deal, no deal or no Brexit" indeed, and the only good deal out of this mess is to go for no Brexit.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

It'd be funny if it passes. All that just to lose their voice in the EU.

It is already funny to see them running around trying to get this deal through when it so clearly worse than what the UK had enjoyed for the years it had in the EU.

Then again, the moment Article 50 was triggered, that was the moment the UK lost it's voice in the EU. The best options it had was always going to either make them only subservient to the EU (the Norway option) or completely out of the EU.

The UK kicked itself out of a seat on the table for nothing.

[Kakurin]

That's the problem with letting the people vote on vague stuff. It enables phonies and populists like Farage to promise the sky without ever needing to show a halfway realistic way of how to achieve that. Even the country that relies most on plebescites in Switzerland has fixed rules on what the people can vote on. And what they vote on are defined proposals on amendments to the constitution / laws. Not some crap question like "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?".

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

It is already funny to see them running around trying to get this deal through when it so clearly worse than what the UK had enjoyed for the years it had in the EU.

Then again, the moment Article 50 was triggered, that was the moment the UK lost it's voice in the EU. The best options it had was always going to either make them only subservient to the EU (the Norway option) or completely out of the EU.

But at least, in the latter option, the UK gained something (the ability to make their own trade deals), even if the worth of that gain compared to the losses is debatable. The former is just straight losses.