[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 8 Twilight of the golden witch

[Pikumin]

I don't suppose this game is the "Rokkenjima Prime" that everyone's been speculating about, is it?

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Pikumin

I don't suppose this game is the "Rokkenjima Prime" that everyone's been speculating about, is it?

Depends if you think this is the "absolute truth" or yet one of the other many possibilities.

[MeoTwister5]

The Battle for Survival

Ange is on the run. What is a little girl to do? Who will save her?

Spoiler for Summaries:

Rokkenjima
- Ange is screaming and running to the guesthouse looking for her brother. Since she hasn't seen their bodies, she thinks they're still alive. She runs into the rain looking for them.
- She hears who she thinks is Battler beyond a fence. She heads for the toolshed and finds them. She calls to them but they can't seem to hear or see her. It's like the difference between the TV and the viewer.
- Battler is raging on wtf is happening. Maria calls this a witch's act. George is asking for calm. They have to figure out what is going on.
- George says they don't know who is doing this on the island. Battler says that none of them really know if those people died. If they are the only ones on the island, then maybe someone is faking death. George presumes that there are at least 2 killers.
- They presume that Nanjo's autopsies would be correct. They remember the bodies he checked. Battler insinuates that George is suspecting that their parents might be part of the plot. Maria claims her mother is dead, so the criminal must be one of the other four. She's being creepy again and Battler tells her to stfu.
- Maria questions Battler who checked his parents. Battler says they should be dead as they were covered in blood. She thinks he's lying. Maria insists that he is lying and that his parents are alive and killed. She repeats the theory of the metaworld solution. Maria flat out accuses him of being an accomplice.
- George tells them to stop it. Maria calls this sheepin wolves' clothing, a family of killers. Battler denies everything and gets angry.
- KYRIE AND RUDOLPH APPEAR AND CONFRONT THEM.
- George and Maria are shocked. They now know the truth.
- Ange witnesses this with utter disbelief. Battler goes to his parents, who raise guns at Maria and George. They shoot Maria and George in the head.
- Ange is aghast. Battler, Kyrie and Rudolph laugh and gloat. Ange feels like puking. She tries to run away from the horrid laughter of her family. Goats appear around her. The goats surround her and taunt her with accusations that her family are the killers in an effort to break her.
- The narrator explains the Eva killer theory and why the goats aren't talking about it. It assumed as the truth, but now she is forced to question it. Narrator postulates that Ange was purposely not brought to the council to spare her involvement in this conspiracy. Narrator explains future speculations by the public of what Battler's family is or were, about criminal syndicates and notorious business practices. Narrator presents how the public adopts the Battler's Family conspiracy instead of the Eva theory.
- Ange suddenly sees a flash of white distorting the goats. She starts to
see the goats as forms similar to the classmates who bullied her. They same the same thing as the first goats and mock her (like in Ep4). The goats gossip about her and her family. The mockery pushes Ange down.
- All of a sudden, a slash comes out of nowhere and cuts the goats. A voice calls to Ange to follow. It looked like the cat. She runs after the cat as the goats go after her. She is cautious but she has no choice but to run. They run and run and are eventually cornered.
- A goat approaches, opens it's grotesque mouth and tries to go after Ange while chanting the accusations of the Battler Family Conspiracy.
- A BLUE SWORD APPEARS AND GUTS THE GOAT. In blue, the figure says that it is possible to create a theory that excludes Battler's family. In blue the goats reply that it is impossible for the crime to be done by anyone other than Battler's family.
- A RED SWORD APPEARS AND GUTS MORE GOATS. In red it says that it is possible to construct a theory that does not involve Battler's family. In blue it adds that it is possible to have the George family as killers theory.
- THE RED AND BLUE OF THE UNKNOWN INTRUDER SLASH DOWN THE GOATS. The goats replyin blue that the George Family killer theory is impossible. It is impossible for George to kill Shannon. Itis impossible for him to be the criminal.
- The intruder replies in red that it is possible (for George Family). It is listed as the rule that the criminals are murderers. However, it is not limited to just one person. George could have been a criminal outside the island and, even if not guilty of murder on the island, doesn't need to kill anyone on the island to be a criminal. (WTF?)
- The goats get slashed around. Ange begins to realize she has a guardian who is battling the goats with red and blue.
- She looks up and sees the figure. ERIKA IS FIGHTING THE GOATS WITH A RED AND BLUE SCYTHE.

Yes. "She" is alive. If in case you don't believe me...

Spoiler for Sheee's baaaack.:

Any logic is possible for Erika Furudo.

Spoiler for Red Text:

- Erika: it is possible to construct a theory that does not involve Battler's family.
- Erika: it is possible (for George Family). It is listed as the rule that the criminals are murderers. However, it is not limited to just one person. George could have been a criminal outside the island and, even if not guilty of murder on the island, doesn't need to kill anyone on the island to be a criminal.

Spoiler for Blue Text:

- Erika: it is possible to create a theory that excludes Battler's family.
- Goats: it is impossible for the crime to be done by anyone other than Battler's family.
- Erika: it is possible to have the George family as killers theory.
- Goats: the George Family killer theory is impossible. It is impossible for George to kill Shannon. It is impossible for him to be the criminal.

And... yeah I'll stop with a cliffhanger for today. Had some extra work to do so no time for translations. Moved the post-murder game segment to a new page.

I can say that the time for epic badassery is about to start. But that's for tomorrow. Sorry.

[Ayu-ayu]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Fourth Murder Investigation

Spoiler for Purple Text:

- Nanjo: examined the dead body and confirmed that she is dead.
- Gohda: they do not all have alibis.
- Jessica: it is impossible for George to kill Shannon.
- Battler: it is possible for everyone else to kill Shannon except for
George.
- Gohda: Shannon's master key was destroyed.

Catching up gradually...I noticed you missed two Purple Truths at the start of the Fourth Twilight:

Spoiler for 2 missed Purple Text lines:

- Jessica: I went out with all the members and looked for Shannon
- George: I must recognize the fact that she (Shannon) has died….

These both came before Nanjo's proclamation. No idea if that's important or not having only just finished reading all the purple text and accompanying narration. Yeah, I'm slow, but I want to try to read everything carefully...

[MeoTwister5]

Yeah went back to check my save during the murder game and I did missed those two. Fixed in my blog.

Edit - Could the readers of the summaries, like, please not link the translations on my blog to just anywhere? I'm getting a metric f-ton of spam comments ranging from the usual bizarre porn links to someone wanting to sell me a dog. I appreciate the support, but please if you wanna link, link in a place where spambots aren't the majority population. Thank you.

[Will Wright]

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

For my part, at the point where I'm at right now, I really feel like I'm getting a sense of what Ryuukishi07 is trying to accomplish, and it's actually rather moving, if so. If as R07 says, many mysteries do ignore the "heart", the true whydunnit, in favor of whodunnit/ howdunnit,

I just have to point out that Ryuukishi basically made that up. The Golden Age has more heart than any other genre, even romance. Sure you can find a few novels that don't present motive, but exceptions do not the rule make.

In order to solve Death on the Nile, you need to understand the culprit's heart. There is no exaggeration in this. In fact, you could go ahead and say that at least 80% of all Miss Marple stories require the reader to understand the culprit's motive in order to understand who is the culprit.

Moreover, I can say that

Spoiler for Curtain: Poirot's last case:

You need to understand the detective's heart to understand the case.

Ryuukishi loves to paint the mystery genre as heartless when it is anything but. Even Van Dine's 'heartless' novels were full and complex narratives, where the heart was important.

There are times when the whydunit is ignored, but the howdunit and the whodunit is ignored just as often.

"I don't know how you did it," says the detective, "but you did it. I'm sure of it."

A common scene in mystery fiction. The who and the why are clear. It's the how that is the problem.

It's also very common to see someone being shot at his own house. It is not a matter of how, but who and why.

Ryuukishi's portrayal of the mystery genre is quite frankly, very misinformed. He either didn't make his research, which is unlikely given how he makes references to a few mystery novels here and there, or he just didn't research the genre deeply enough.

Sure, the story isn't a mystery. But it talks about mysteries a lot. And when it does, Ryuukishi shows his ignorance on the subject.

Do you know how a fencer can't enjoy a sword fighting scene in a movie because he knows how foolish and wrong they are? It's the same thing here with mystery fans.

Forgive me for this rant, but this is just something that always bothered me about the series, and episode 8 itself was pretty bad about it. Ryuukishi's message in the end about heart just didn't sit right with me.

All about Ange, the truth you choose to find and etc...it felt rather lacking to me.

[Ayu-ayu]

Originally Posted by Will Wright

Do you know how a fencer can't enjoy a sword fighting scene in a movie because he knows how foolish and wrong they are? It's the same thing here with mystery fans.

Forgive me for this rant, but this is just something that always bothered me about the series, and episode 8 itself was pretty bad about it. Ryuukishi's message in the end about heart just didn't sit right with me.

All about Ange, the truth you choose to find and etc...it felt rather lacking to me.

Personally, this seems a fair enough complaint from a well-read mystery fan like Will. As a casual mystery fan, it's why I qualified that sentiment with an "If". However, I'll stand by my interpretation from the rest of the paragraph which was omitted in this critique:

...then Umineko is a tale of the romance and fantasy that coyly lurks behind the surface of the mystery genre (perhaps behind the mystery creation process itself and/or the minds of the readers exploring the work), the magical realm of possibilities before the cat box is opened in those missing last ten pages. I really like the echoes of the events that reverberate throughout the eight arcs and the illustrative way concepts and rules are anthropomorphized or otherwise brought to life. It's not so much either a mystery or fantasy, but an illustration of appreciation for both. The "whydunnit" doesn't simply refer to the culprit, but the author of the mystery him/herself (whether in or out of the story).

That is to say, Umineko is more about the "heart" in terms of appreciating both the creation and interpretation of mysteries. It's not about why the culprit "dunnit" so much as why the writer and reader bother with the "dunnits" in the first place. Again, that's just my personal takeaway so far as I reach the midpoint (I think) of the arc. I'm not trying to say that mysteries are heartless and R07 has bested them at that game, but rather that he is doing a good job of showing the path to where that heart can be found to those of us who didn't know to look in the first place.

[milkypink]

So I just finished.
It took me around four days, both because of the language difficulty and the sheer level of emotion built into this Episode.

More than the other 7, I felt like 8 was truly endless. So many sections with such different moods... (I started wondering if there really WAS an ending, or if I'd be doomed to read this Episode for all eternity )

I was skeptical about the whole "choices" thing, but I think he pulled it off well... if slightly confusing. I still don't know if choosing a different cake slice than I did affects anything... I tried about five others without any immediate changes so I just gave up and went with my first choice (a la Ange XD)

I managed pretty well with most of the riddles (I even realized the atomic number one, despite my poor knowledge of Chemistry. I didn't know the answer, but I knew how it was derived... ) There were a couple that, even after reading the explanations I had no idea how they got there. (And there was at least one I didn't even bother trying to read I was so burnt out at the time x__x)

I chose the Magic ending... I'm a little afraid to choose Trick/Slight of Hand, to be perfectly honest I'll stick with my Magic ending for now~

For a while, I was wondering how the diary could possibly be observed if Ryuukishi claimed to not spoonfeed the answers... but as expected, there were no hard fact answers in this Episode (aside from perhaps some minor background facts in the Quiz Party after answering correctly, but nothing earth shattering) .

Am I satisfied with the end?
For the most part, I think so.
It's bittersweet, certainly, and as much as I'd love a completely happy ending (oh you don't know how excited I was with that boat scene for a while...) ... it wasn't realistic. Ryuukishi didn't betray the reality he'd constructed (much, anyway) and he didn't betray his readers, either.

But, that's just my take.
Time to read the previous pages of this thread...

[AuraTwilight]

The intruder replies in red that it is possible (for George Family). It is listed as the rule that the criminals are murderers. However, it is not limited to just one person. George could have been a criminal outside the island and, even if not guilty of murder on the island, doesn't need to kill anyone on the island to be a criminal. (WTF?)

This is why Erika is awesome.

[Biichama]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Speaking of which.... after this, how many people here would be willing to read another WTC series?

Heck yes. Though having to deal with the wait between episodes will drive me bonkers. It drove me bonkers enough this time and I only got into WTC this summer!

[erneiz_hyde]

just finished ep.8

the first thing I want to say is:
Good luck translating this, witch hunt! You guys seriously need it! B-)

personal review:

so, we get to have some detective works with Bern's game and I spent one whole day to solve it. The story in Bern's game was stated as mere wild speculation from the internet discussion from 1998 after they get bored with the Eva-culprit theory. Still, I felt kinda trolled because I expected to find the true culprit here.

R07 completely sealed the truth with this game and only focused on the wrappings of the story. I say I am disappointed because the truth of the two days are still not clear.

But! I get to see epic scenes! All character were going all-out!
Musou Rosa~! So fast that you see yourself dead multiple times before you know it!
Krauss Brofist~! The fist that will send you to the moon!
RoundGeorge Kick~! pun intended!
Hormone Fist Jessica~!
Dream Team Will+Dlanor~!
And....

LambdaDelta! If I ever participate in the fave chara vote, I will certainly make sure you get to at least big 5 just as you wished! I accidentally became your fan now! Love youuuuu~!

Edit: whhoooops, I can't believe I missed this. I was a serious Erika bitch-hater, but after this, I think she's Okay! -_-b

And the last kiss with Beato and Battler was seriously itchy I imagined an H-scene in that spot lol. oh, and don't get me going on where my mind went with Bern and Lamda's conversation when they battle it out

Above all, I think I get what this story tried to convey. It helped a bit if one sees umineko not as a whole, but in part. Like, ep.1-4 as the blue mystery part, then ep 5-7 was the red fantasy part, and ep.8 is the golden truth part, and that ultimately, what's important is what you believe. sure, it made it half-assed in every genre and sounds much like political or occult BS, but even Will said:
"Ultimately even mystery is entertainment. It's up to the reader to enjoy them or not."

So I re-evaluated my understandings of this story and decided that I am enjoying it. One might even say that this could be R07's bitchslap.

"This is entertainment. If you can't accept it, then don't go and shove that disappointment to others. Suck it up."

something like that? though that's just me.

/personal review end.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Will Wright

In fact, that person would be doing the writer's work for him. That's what I think Umineko is in the end.

I wouldn't go that far, though I agree that the fanbase must have had something to do with how the story folded out.

Instead of us doing his work for him, how about saying "he and us together worked for our fanbase"?

[eXpERieNCeD]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Featherine is probably the most -broken- witch ever.
You learn in Episode 8 that she is one of those of the Creator category.

You will understand once you see how she basically turn Lambda into nothing, and I -mean it-.

What do you mean about turning Lamda into nothing... do you mean a colorful verbal battle against each other? or a magic battle like what happened to Virgilia and Beato? or do you mean her cruelty is nothing compared to Lamda?

[Klashikari]

Magic Battle, although it was beyond one sided.

[erneiz_hyde]

aah Featherine.

Her power reminded me of Remilia from Touhou, or perhaps Keine, or perhaps even the combination of both. That's real hax, just like R07.

Also, anyone know Lambda's リヴァイアサン reference? I though it was Leviathan but Levi was written with レ. Then I kinda remembered Laevateinn staff from Touhou (partly because LD somehow looked like Flandre) but that doesn't sound right. Kinda like there's "sun" at the back because how it worked as a exploding device. Refire Sun?

[Klashikari]

リヴァイアサン is the katakana transliteration of the english reading of Leviathan, as suggested by the Japanese Wikipedia.
Probably, Ryukishi was actually trying to discern the demon with the actual legendary sea dragon.

[MeoTwister5]

Wow it took me an entire fucking hour to discover that I posted this in the wrong thread!

Just one summary update for today. Nothing really exciting but at least one big revelation.

Spoiler for Summary:

Ange and Eva-Beatrice vs. Goats
- Erika begins goat massacre. She introduces herself as Furudo Erika, detective. The goats back off in fear. She demands that one of the goats face her.
- Red webs appear and surround the area. Eva-Beatrice appears to challenge those who deny her as the criminal. Eva lays claim to being the criminal and owner of the gold. She lays claim to the catbox.
- With a wave of her wand she crushes the goats into a meat pie. She and Erika exchange greetings.
- Eva-Beatrice says she is here to help Ange because she thinks of her as daughter. She says she will alwys be on Ange's side. Eva-Beatrice leaves.
- Erika explains her status as the witch of truth. Ange remembers how she wanted to know the truth, and how maybe Erika can give this to her. Erika says they are both truth seekers. Ange asks for information.
- Erika asks why Ange is so willing to ask for the truth and willing to believe her. Ange tells Erika what Battler has shown in this game. She says she doesn't believe what Battler showed her. Erika tells her of the need to see through the lies and deceit by understanding.
- Ange tries to figure out why Battler would show this. Ange rages why she is the only one Battler won't show the truth to.
- Erika says it is best to reach the truth yourself. Ange rages at why they won't seem to let her get it.
- Ange feels transported back to the skyscraper where she first met Bern. Bern tells her if she is capable of reaching this truth. She says that sometimes the truth you finally get might do something different to you than you initially believed. She says Ange doesn't have the right to request the truth. She begins to ask herself if she really possesses the resolution to accept the truth, no matter what it may be.
- She begins to feel the contradiction, that perhaps by asking for the truth there is still no one who will come back alive. Ange again wonders if she is willing to accept it. Bern asks if she is resolved to accept it. Bern sees the resolve in her eyes.
- Bern repeats how Ange is the Beatrice of 1998 and Bern is her guardian. Ange is the witch of truth similar to Erika. Ange begins to realize that she rejects the truth while at the same time demanding it.
- Ange toys with the idea of admitting that indeed, her family is dead. Bern says she will support Ange's quest for truth. They will discuss it over tea.

MetaWorld Hall
- Battler and Beato cheer for a wonderful game that Bern made. Zepar and Furfur put up the game board for the other people to see. Everyone observes and comments. The attendees discuss the game amongst themselves. Bern asks for some good tea.
- Bern praises Beato who takes it like sarcasm. Battler tells Bern it was interesting to play that game. He says it would be nice to play another game with her in the future, albeit a more challenging one.
- Bern says she begins to understand the difference between her and Beato, regarding the idea of an eternal endless game. An endless game is endless torture. She remembers a bit of her past.
- Battler tries to comprehend what she says and asks if this brings back memories of a previous experience. Bern says she a different person from what she was before.
- Battler says they are sort of friends now, as competitors. They became friends in the middle of an opposing struggle between them as players. They decide to have some plum tea. Battler considered the game a fair game.
- Bern giggles and says that her game is not yet over. She puts down her tea. Battler looks confused.

Featherine's Study
- Ange wakes up to Bern who is pouring tea. Bern calls on Featherine. They are in her study. Bern says this is where she will look for her truth apart from Battler's presentation. Ange shows Featherine the key Battler gave her and asks what it is really for.
- Featherine asks Bern to explain. She doesn't want to. She says the key is the embodiment of the one final decision to make regarding the story and its acceptance. It will open the door to what she has chosen. Battler gave Ange the freedom to make her choice.
- Ange remembers the suffering she experienced after the incident that claimed the lives of everyone. Every time she asks Battler about it he refuses to answer her directly. Bern agrees that Battler is being evasive.
- Featherine and Bern explain how Battler was a player before and Beato was the GM, and how both fought each other to reach the truth. Ange says she is the player and Battler the GM now.
- Featherine suggests that Ange may have been playing without understanding anything. Bern says Battler is sly to conceal this from his sister. Ange realizes she was being passive all this time, relying solely on Battler, without thinking for herself. Battler's intention was for her to figure it out herself, and use that key to do this.
- She now thinks she understands Battler's goal. The key she believes now was meant by Battler for her to open the door against the deception she is shown. The key will open the truth within herself. Featherine says she will show her now. Ange's sight begins to distort.

1998
- Ange waks up in Hachijou's sofa, who now just arrives. She thinks that Featherine and Hachijou are one and the same. Ange calls her Featherine, and Amakusa is confused.
- Hachijou shows her a book with a keyhole. The book is currently locked. Eva's name is inscribed on the cover. Amakusa thinks this is Eva's secret diary. Hachijou says this is the diary Eva hid in her hospital room before she died. Narrator explains how this book was found but was locked, and how witch hunters are unable to open it without destroying the pages. Amakusa asks if it is possible to remove the hinges.
- Ange wonders if this might contain Eva's account of the events on the island. Hachijou says no one knows where the key is. Ange looks for the key Battler gave her and begins to freak that it isn't around her neck. She then realizes that she doesn't have the key in the human world.

Featherine's Study
- Ange shifts back to the metaworld. Here, however, the diary is gone. Ange thinks Battler is hiding the book from her. Bern and Featherine suggest that perhaps Battler isn't actually hiding the book from her. Bern asks Ange to remember the rule that states that all the clues must be accessible. They ask her to remember if she's seen it before.
- Ange recalls the seeing a locked book at the chapel when Battler gave her the key. Bern says that perhaps it contains the truth they seek.
- In red Featherine states that Eva's diary contains the "One Truth". It records the truth of Rokenjima from October 4 and 5, 1986.

Spoiler for Red Text:

- Featherine: Eva's diary contains the "One Truth". It records the truth of Rokenjima from October 4 and 5, 1986.

More to follow tomorrow.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Will Wright

There are times when the whydunit is ignored, but the howdunit and the whodunit is ignored just as often.

"I don't know how you did it," says the detective, "but you did it. I'm sure of it."

A common scene in mystery fiction. The who and the why are clear. It's the how that is the problem.

This is not what Ryukishi means by "heart". It's not about using the why to discover the criminal, it's about putting forth the idea that someone's reasons for doing something can be just as important and interesting as the things they do.

I mean, come on here. Let's not play coy. Anyone that's read any amount of mystery novels knows that stories like Umineko are far and few in between, especially when it comes to Golden Age mysteries.

Most mystery novels are not set up for you to care about the cast in any meaningful way. Our sympathies are supposed to lie with the detective, and he's an outside force. (That's why Erika is an interesting deconstruction, because it shows that the intrusion of such a larger than life, obnoxious know-it-all is far more likely to be resented by the people to whom the situation actually pertains.)

Likewise, the "why" is usually a tacked on after-thought to explain why the criminal went to the elaborate contortions that s/he did to commit the crime. It, like the crime itself, is there mostly so the pieces fall into place and we're satisfied with how things turned out. Readers won't accept someone who plots elaborate crimes for no reason, but mysteries rarely delve deep into the psyche of the criminal either.

In fact, I'd say Umineko is more like a mystery turned inside-out, which is why I enjoy it so much.

Originally Posted by Will Wright

Do you know how a fencer can't enjoy a sword fighting scene in a movie because he knows how foolish and wrong they are? It's the same thing here with mystery fans.

I wouldn't speak for all mystery fans. I love mysteries (and would actually like to write them, though mine are also rather non-traditional in a lot of aspects) and I don't regret the time I spent with Umineko in the slightest.

Really, I think all the complaints are more like this. Ryukishi invited us all to dinner and mentioned that the main dish would be meat. Some fans jumped to the conclusion that this meant Ryukishi was going to serve us filet mignon, but when we got there, we found out that it was pot roast instead. Very nicely cooked, but pot roast. You can either keep crying about how Ryukishi tricked you into thinking it was filet mignon and talk about how terrible the dinner is, or you can accept the nice pot roast and critique the work based on what it actually is. (And don't get me wrong--I didn't exactly want pot roast either. I wanted stew. But it's not a bad pot roast.)

[Will Wright]

Originally Posted by musouka

This is not what Ryukishi means by "heart". It's not about using the why to discover the criminal, it's about putting forth the idea that someone's reasons for doing something can be just as important and interesting as the things they do.

I mean, come on here. Let's not play coy. Anyone that's read any amount of mystery novels knows that stories like Umineko are far and few in between, especially when it comes to Golden Age mysteries.

Most mystery novels are not set up for you to care about the cast in any meaningful way. Our sympathies are supposed to lie with the detective, and he's an outside force. (That's why Erika is an interesting deconstruction, because it shows that the intrusion of such a larger than life, obnoxious know-it-all is far more likely to be resented by the people to whom the situation actually pertains.)

Likewise, the "why" is usually a tacked on after-thought to explain why the criminal went to the elaborate contortions that s/he did to commit the crime. It, like the crime itself, is there mostly so the pieces fall into place and we're satisfied with how things turned out. Readers won't accept someone who plots elaborate crimes for no reason, but mysteries rarely delve deep into the psyche of the criminal either.

In fact, I'd say Umineko is more like a mystery turned inside-out, which is why I enjoy it so much.

I wouldn't say that at all. I think that it's harder to find a Christie novel where the murderer is a jerk than one where the murderer is sympathetic. The why isn't "tacked on" in stories at all.

There are stories where the why is just sort of 'there' and you can just ignore it, but the same goes to the who and the how.

For example, again using Death on the Nile as an example(though you could make a case for any non-impossible-crime Christie novel) the motive is not only there, it's what you need to solve the crime. Unless you understand exactly why the murderer became who he/she is, you can't solve it.

Christie's novels(Miss Marple comes to mind) always focused on the why, sometimes to a fault. To claim that there are few mysteries that care about the motive is nonsense.

For example, Van Dine often ignored the who to focus on the how. Of course there are no novels like Umineko who go on and on about the characters, since even one Umineko novel is already longer than most mystery novels.

Let's be frank, to expect the same degree of characterization in a series that has 8 novels and a single novel is just silly. There isn't enough room for that much development.

And again, the who and the how were ignored just as often.

Crooked House. The how is outright explained, the only question is who. The key to finding out the who is by finding the why. The motive is not just tacked on like Ryuukishi says. That's a fallacy.

I wouldn't speak for all mystery fans. I love mysteries (and would actually like to write them, though mine are also rather non-traditional in a lot of aspects) and I don't regret the time I spent with Umineko in the slightest.

And I'm fairly sure there are fencers who can watch swordfights in movies as well. And I'm not saying that mystery fans will regret their time with Umineko, since it is still a decent narrative(even if in need of an editor) but it's hard not to cringe for a bit when Ryuukishi talks about things like "the motive is the most neglected aspect of a mystery" which in my experience, is just not true.

Really, I think all the complaints are more like this. Ryukishi invited us all to dinner and mentioned that the main dish would be meat. Some fans jumped to the conclusion that this meant Ryukishi was going to serve us filet mignon, but when we got there, we found out that it was pot roast instead. Very nicely cooked, but pot roast. You can either keep crying about how Ryukishi tricked you into thinking it was filet mignon and talk about how terrible the dinner is, or you can accept the nice pot roast and critique the work based on what it actually is. (And don't get me wrong--I didn't exactly want pot roast either. I wanted stew. But it's not a bad pot roast.)

Haha, nice analogy. However, leaving the mystery aside, I still don't like how the series was concluded. It's more like he invited us to dinner, mentioned the main dish would be meat, made a long speech about how to cook filet mignon that was...questionable, but still left us hungry for it, then in the end he gave us pot roast. Not just any pot roast, but a rather sub-par pot roast filled with parts of a filet mignon that made it look like a mutant sandwich from hell.

Critiquing the work on what it actually is, it's not a mystery. But it talks about them and makes a few mistaken assumptions about the genre. Leaving all mystery aside, the ending still felt like a letdown.

[Klashikari]

We are dangerously derailing yet again the subject into the franchise as a whole. I would like you to stop repeating the same things in the wrong thread, as it is getting exhausting on the middle and long run.
Please remain on topic regardless which thread you are on, and we are currently on the thread for Episode 8 only.

And again, I certainly wish that people stop declaring their interpretations into facts. I dunno about you, but there are limits to allegations, regardless if you are satisfied or not with the franchise.