Sword Art Online - Episode 2 Discussion / Poll

[xenapan]

Am I the only one that saw the HUGE plot hole that developed at the start of this episode?
1.Just before the OP, Kirito comments that no one including him has even FOUND the boss room to get to the second floor. A full month after the game has started... ( yet we are given no explanation why)
2. Right after the OP the meeting starts, Kibao complains about the beta testers. Then suddenly at the end of the meeting Agil points out everyone has a guidebook written by the beta testers then Diabel without even opening it points out the boss information was there all along?
4. Then he proceeds to read out of the book when at the beginning of the meeting he claimed he was part of the party that found the boss room. (Why would he need to read information he already knows by being there?)
5. When Diabel tries to steal the KB, the boss pulls the nodachi instead of a talwar Kirito realizes it wasn't the same as the beta test. (Yet Diabel also a beta tester didn't realize the difference?)
6. After the boss fight Kirito claims he got further than anyone else up the tower during the beta test. (and in EP1 Kirito claims to have made it to level 8 in the month of the beta)

At the end of the first episode Kirito makes some remark about there being limited gold/exp and resources which would imply they should have been running out of monsters to kill very quickly as everyone swarmed out there. Yet not even Kirito manages to find the boss room in that month with everyone out there swarming over every inch looking for loot? (yet beginning ep2 hes just sitting in town like everyone else instead of forging his own way)
7. Middle of episode 2, he offers to take Haruna to get some of the cream.
Here I was hoping for the same kind of quality in the story as accel world but plot holes abound in episode 2? whats the deal?

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by xenapan

Am I the only one that saw the HUGE plot hole that developed at the start of this episode?
1.Just before the OP, Kirito comments that no one including him has even FOUND the boss room to get to the second floor. A full month after the game has started... ( yet we are given no explanation why)

Yes, no one has found the boss room. I fail to see the problem.

Originally Posted by xenapan

2. Right after the OP the meeting starts, Kibao complains about the beta testers. Then suddenly at the end of the meeting Agil points out everyone has a guidebook written by the beta testers then Diabel without even opening it points out the boss information was there all along?

Info on the boss came from the beta.

Originally Posted by xenapan

4. Then he proceeds to read out of the book when at the beginning of the meeting he claimed he was part of the party that found the boss room. (Why would he need to read information he already knows by being there?)

He was reading info about the boss itself, not its location.

Originally Posted by xenapan

5. When Diabel tries to steal the KB, the boss pulls the nodachi instead of a talwar Kirito realizes it wasn't the same as the beta test. (Yet Diabel also a beta tester didn't realize the difference?)

I dunno, maybe he didn't know what a tulwar is? Maybe he actually never fought this boss before himself? Or you know, maybe he just wasn't paying attention? Seriously there's dozens of reasons why he could've missed it.

Originally Posted by xenapan

6. After the boss fight Kirito claims he got further than anyone else up the tower during the beta test. (and in EP1 Kirito claims to have made it to level 8 in the month of the beta)

So.... Level 8 is farther than anyone else. I fail to see the problem here. This is assuming that he isn't lying.

Originally Posted by xenapan

At the end of the first episode Kirito makes some remark about there being limited gold/exp and resources which would imply they should have been running out of monsters to kill very quickly as everyone swarmed out there. Yet not even Kirito manages to find the boss room in that month with everyone out there swarming over every inch looking for loot? (yet beginning ep2 hes just sitting in town like everyone else instead of forging his own way)

So... Where exactly is the contradiction here? I fail to see it.

Originally Posted by xenapan

7. Middle of episode 2, he offers to take Haruna to get some of the cream.

...Is this a contradiction?



So anyway, about these plot holes.. Which plot holes are you referring to?

[jpwong]

I think you're making it to be a bigger plot hole (if any) than what's really there.

From what I understood, the guidebook contained information about the boss. Things like health, tactics, attacks, things that are useful when you fight the boss, not exactly useful if you haven't yet found the boss to fight.

Even assuming the guidebook had an exact layout of the dungeon marking the boss room, given that after a month no one had found the room, it clearly indicates that at the minimum the dungeon layout is different than what it was in the beta. If the dungeon is the full size of that massive pillar, it's not exactly absurd to think the boss room wasn't found in the whole first month. Maybe it's absurd if you think that all 8 thousand remaining players are off scouring the dungeon for it, but given the rather small turnout for the boss meeting, I think it's safe to assume the vast majority of players are not doing that.

Diabel was after the last attack bonus, he may very well have realized too late that something was different, or perhaps he thought he could defeat the boss before taking fatal damage.

In conjunction with that, perhaps Diabel never journeyed to the upper floors during the beta test. Beta testers come in all forms, some people focus on trying to learn all they can about the starting areas rather than push the forefront of content. Without knowing how far he got, it's hard to make a judgment call as to whether or not he would have seen that type of weapon/attack during the beta.

At the start of ep2, I think the implication is that everyone is there to discuss the boss fight. Beating the boss and opening the way to the second floor would open an entirely new zone of resources (plus I think the comment falls more in line with the fact that as you level up in a game, the rate of return for fighting in the same area will decrease rapidly as you go forward. A level 10+ fighting in a zone meant for level 1s for example is going to receive a pitiful amount if any experience).

For the food, obviously people need downtime in this game. The implication of course is that they need to eat virtual food to survive. Even going on the assumption that they don't and could hack and slash monsters 24/7 to maximize their resources, that HAS to be stressful. I'm going to say that at some point players need to take a breather from killing everything in sight.

[Lantern]

Originally Posted by xenapan

Am I the only one that saw the HUGE plot hole that developed at the start of this episode?
1.Just before the OP, Kirito comments that no one including him has even FOUND the boss room to get to the second floor. A full month after the game has started... ( yet we are given no explanation why)
2. Right after the OP the meeting starts, Kibao complains about the beta testers. Then suddenly at the end of the meeting Agil points out everyone has a guidebook written by the beta testers then Diabel without even opening it points out the boss information was there all along?
4. Then he proceeds to read out of the book when at the beginning of the meeting he claimed he was part of the party that found the boss room. (Why would he need to read information he already knows by being there?)
5. When Diabel tries to steal the KB, the boss pulls the nodachi instead of a talwar Kirito realizes it wasn't the same as the beta test. (Yet Diabel also a beta tester didn't realize the difference?)
6. After the boss fight Kirito claims he got further than anyone else up the tower during the beta test. (and in EP1 Kirito claims to have made it to level 8 in the month of the beta)

At the end of the first episode Kirito makes some remark about there being limited gold/exp and resources which would imply they should have been running out of monsters to kill very quickly as everyone swarmed out there. Yet not even Kirito manages to find the boss room in that month with everyone out there swarming over every inch looking for loot? (yet beginning ep2 hes just sitting in town like everyone else instead of forging his own way)
7. Middle of episode 2, he offers to take Haruna to get some of the cream.
Here I was hoping for the same kind of quality in the story as accel world but plot holes abound in episode 2? whats the deal?

2. Boss information based on what Beta-testers seen during Closed-Beta, what's wrong with that?

4. I think it's kinda like how an instructor would read their teacher's edition textbook towards a class.

5. He didn't notice. Exactly why he got owned

6. I think the Beta progress is universal for the front line elite Beta-Test players just like how it is on live. Kirito claims that he is one of those elites (or he's bluffing, still works). As for that limited gold/exp remark, I've always feel there's wording problem in the first episode. But you see, as shown in ep1, resource definitely DO respawn. The problem is that the rate cannot keep up with the outburst of people at the starting area, hence the limit. I'm sure after a month the population of people that tries to fight spreads out more evenly across the first floor. Finally, at the beginning he's probably just happen to be taking a breather in the safe-zone. Not even a super seiyan would wanna go 24/7 at the front line ye no. Especially when you can't afford to exhaust yourself which can easily get you killed.

[zeniselv]

there is alot of people making a fuss about plotholes, but isnt a little too early to be complaining abou that? we hardly had been explained how things work in sao, for that reason is hard to say there had been any omissions or contradictions, though i can't deny there had been some poor judgement and unintelligent actions by some characters.

[MasterVampire]

If its been 1 month since everyone got trapped inside the game then whats going on with their bodies in the real world?

What about food?

[Bombo]

I want back to raids in world of warcraft after watching this episode hahahaha
and tbh asuna so cute in the end to look for name X)

[Irisu]

Originally Posted by xenapan

1.Just before the OP, Kirito comments that no one including him has even FOUND the boss room to get to the second floor. A full month after the game has started... ( yet we are given no explanation why)

I don't think we're watching the same show. I don't even know where to begin.
A full month after the game has started. So? Don't confuse Sword Art Online death game with your typical MMO.

Originally Posted by xenapan

At the end of the first episode Kirito makes some remark about there being limited gold/exp and resources which would imply they should have been running out of monsters to kill very quickly as everyone swarmed out there. Yet not even Kirito manages to find the boss room in that month with everyone out there swarming over every inch looking for loot? (yet beginning ep2 hes just sitting in town like everyone else instead of forging his own way)

But we're talking about the (particularly dangerous) dungeon leading to the boss room. Yup, the place where people who value their life would hesitate to enter.

Originally Posted by zeniselv

there is alot of people making a fuss about plotholes, but isnt a little too early to be complaining abou that? we hardly had been explained how things work in sao, for that reason is hard to say there had been any omissions or contradictions, though i can't deny there had been some poor judgement and unintelligent actions by some characters.

I agree. This man knows what he's talking about.

Originally Posted by MasterVampire

If its been 1 month since everyone got trapped inside the game then whats going on with their bodies in the real world?

What about food?

Obviously SAO players are treated in hospitals like how a person in coma should be treated.
Using IV and stuff to maintain sustenance.

[xenapan]

Originally Posted by jpwong

I think you're making it to be a bigger plot hole (if any) than what's really there.

From what I understood, the guidebook contained information about the boss. Things like health, tactics, attacks, things that are useful when you fight the boss, not exactly useful if you haven't yet found the boss to fight.

Even assuming the guidebook had an exact layout of the dungeon marking the boss room, given that after a month no one had found the room, it clearly indicates that at the minimum the dungeon layout is different than what it was in the beta. If the dungeon is the full size of that massive pillar, it's not exactly absurd to think the boss room wasn't found in the whole first month. Maybe it's absurd if you think that all 8 thousand remaining players are off scouring the dungeon for it, but given the rather small turnout for the boss meeting, I think it's safe to assume the vast majority of players are not doing that.

Diabel was after the last attack bonus, he may very well have realized too late that something was different, or perhaps he thought he could defeat the boss before taking fatal damage.

In conjunction with that, perhaps Diabel never journeyed to the upper floors during the beta test. Beta testers come in all forms, some people focus on trying to learn all they can about the starting areas rather than push the forefront of content. Without knowing how far he got, it's hard to make a judgment call as to whether or not he would have seen that type of weapon/attack during the beta.

At the start of ep2, I think the implication is that everyone is there to discuss the boss fight. Beating the boss and opening the way to the second floor would open an entirely new zone of resources (plus I think the comment falls more in line with the fact that as you level up in a game, the rate of return for fighting in the same area will decrease rapidly as you go forward. A level 10+ fighting in a zone meant for level 1s for example is going to receive a pitiful amount if any experience).

For the food, obviously people need downtime in this game. The implication of course is that they need to eat virtual food to survive. Even going on the assumption that they don't and could hack and slash monsters 24/7 to maximize their resources, that HAS to be stressful. I'm going to say that at some point players need to take a breather from killing everything in sight.

actually the implications i got from ep1 and him deciding to ditch his new friend, combine that with the fact that theres 10k users (8k if you pretend everyone that died by the end of the first month basically didnt accomplish anything). Scouring an RPG 24/7 for a MONTH on the first floor when the implication he gave was that
a) there were very limited resources in that monsters and quests would be killed and never replaced hence his haste to get away from the crowds and build an advantage for himself.
b) this would mean the area would be empty once the first group (or soloer) emptied it out.
c) they have maps of the virtual world. at the end of EP 1 you see him plotting his route to the second village.
d) the area from the boss room to the next floor up looks like a huge elevator shaft which seems pretty darn hard to miss.
You have 8000 people killing a limited amount of monsters after which the EXP/gold/items run dry for a MONTH. It would be a) every group for themselves b) very cutthroat c) the playing area would empty out very quickly d) people would move further away from the towns to find exp e) hugely hard to miss boss room general area. f) protagonist manages 8 floors in the month of beta test, but when its the real thing he cant even find the first floor's boss room after a month? So what.. hes gotten infinitely worse?

The story cant seem to decide either
a) resources and monsters are scarce or not. The main character says it, but doesn't act like it.
b) Beta testers have explored the entire area before and even if they moved the room it wouldn't take them a month to find. Especially when whole areas get emptied out, theres nothing to distract from finding it. Not to mention the maps they have. Unless they are blindly walking in circles for a month theres no way to miss the boss room.. its the only place no one has been. 8000 people still alive all competing for rapidly diminishing monsters and loot.. that would be plenty of incentive to get out there and kill stuff since once its gone its gone then you would be underleveled to take on the boss which means certain death unless you decided to stay on floor 1 forever.

I expected more PVP and urgency from the players since they have no actual food or water to sustain them. At best their virtual gear pumps them full of electricity but no way would their bodies last if it took them a month to get past floor 1 and they have 99 left. People should be panicing and rushing, competing for XP, possibly killing each other to get ahead since getting stuck behind implies they wait until their actual body dies or their virtual gear battery finally dies.

[Rovert10]

Not all 8000 are out there.
The majority are being super careful and not going out exploring just grinding slowly either that or they are panicking within the starting city.

Food isn't limited, it's the money to buy it with since there is only so many easy quests you can do as the spiky haired dude noted.

[Irisu]

Originally Posted by xenapan

Beta testers have explored the entire area before and even if they moved the room it wouldn't take them a month to find.

Like how the boss' weapon was changed into Nodachi, it's possible the dungeon layout was changed as well.
And unlike the beta test, this time SAO is a death game. The players would want to proceed slowly and safely unlike what they did during beta.

Originally Posted by xenapan

Not to mention the maps they have. Unless they are blindly walking in circles for a month theres no way to miss the boss room..

Maps? Please specify exactly where in the anime explicitly stated that they have a complete map to guide them climbing the tower, all the way toward the boss room.

Originally Posted by xenapan

8000 people still alive all competing for rapidly diminishing monsters and loot.. that would be plenty of incentive to get out there and kill stuff since once its gone its gone then you would be underleveled to take on the boss which means certain death unless you decided to stay on floor 1 forever.

You answered your own question yourself. I mean, out of those 8000, how many players actually attended the meeting?

Originally Posted by xenapan

I expected more PVP and urgency from the players since they have no actual food or water to sustain them.

What is hospital? Do you know that people in coma could last for a few years given a proper treatment? Did you even watch the first episode?

[Seiryuu]

Suddenly, Kirito has turned into Yuri Lowell...

[christinemarie]

After two episodes..

online game: Sword Art Online
difficulty: HELL
setting: HARDCORE
expectations: BEYOND RANDOM

I've loved playing solo mode compared to team battle but takes a lot of time and preparation while others play safe by making a party still end up busted if the tactics in play didn't fare well like what happened this episode with how a beta tester want to get the loots for himself reminds me a lot of the past. This game is starting to change pace, I wonder why Kirito still prefers to play solo even knowing its rare to play with an IRL girl other gamers want to experience.

[Lantern]

Originally Posted by xenapan

actually the implications i got from ep1 and him deciding to ditch his new friend, combine that with the fact that theres 10k users (8k if you pretend everyone that died by the end of the first month basically didnt accomplish anything). Scouring an RPG 24/7 for a MONTH on the first floor when the implication he gave was that
a) there were very limited resources in that monsters and quests would be killed and never replaced hence his haste to get away from the crowds and build an advantage for himself.
b) this would mean the area would be empty once the first group (or soloer) emptied it out.
c) they have maps of the virtual world. at the end of EP 1 you see him plotting his route to the second village.
d) the area from the boss room to the next floor up looks like a huge elevator shaft which seems pretty darn hard to miss.
You have 8000 people killing a limited amount of monsters after which the EXP/gold/items run dry for a MONTH. It would be a) every group for themselves b) very cutthroat c) the playing area would empty out very quickly d) people would move further away from the towns to find exp e) hugely hard to miss boss room general area. f) protagonist manages 8 floors in the month of beta test, but when its the real thing he cant even find the first floor's boss room after a month? So what.. hes gotten infinitely worse?

The story cant seem to decide either
a) resources and monsters are scarce or not. The main character says it, but doesn't act like it.
b) Beta testers have explored the entire area before and even if they moved the room it wouldn't take them a month to find. Especially when whole areas get emptied out, theres nothing to distract from finding it. Not to mention the maps they have. Unless they are blindly walking in circles for a month theres no way to miss the boss room.. its the only place no one has been. 8000 people still alive all competing for rapidly diminishing monsters and loot.. that would be plenty of incentive to get out there and kill stuff since once its gone its gone then you would be underleveled to take on the boss which means certain death unless you decided to stay on floor 1 forever.

I expected more PVP and urgency from the players since they have no actual food or water to sustain them. At best their virtual gear pumps them full of electricity but no way would their bodies last if it took them a month to get past floor 1 and they have 99 left. People should be panicing and rushing, competing for XP, possibly killing each other to get ahead since getting stuck behind implies they wait until their actual body dies or their virtual gear battery finally dies.

Lemme try break this down:

A) Resource
- Try check back the scene where Kirito was showing Klein battle mechanics. The mob respawned nearby after being killed, proving that resource do indeed respawn.
- Combining with Kirito's statement regarding limited resource, this implies that while resource do replenish the rate isn't sufficient for the initial population, hence the competition. I'd admit this might require a little experience in MMO games to understand.
- Personally I still don't see how Kirito is acting like resource isn't scarce. And besides, the front line is already close to the end of Floor 1. Assuming that he kept up with advancing during this month, he'd probably already reach the saturation point of exp/items/gold for the floor. There is nothing much you can do after that besides mapping until the next floor opens up. And obviously you can't solo a RAID boss, not in a death game.

B) Map
- Map we saw in episode 1 is the world map of Floor 1.
- The giant "elevator shaft" that you saw in episode 2 is actually stated to be the dungeon zone (where the Floor Boss resides) and is implied to have a separate map. It's like an open-world-instance. Again, this might require a little experience in MMO games to understand. I cannot reveal anymore info regarding the map structure in this thread, you might wanna check the Q&A thread.

C) People
- Only a tiny portion of the initial population mustered enough courage to leave the safety of the starting town. The rest are either i) too scared ii) too depressed iii) in denial iv) wishful hoping for IRL help v) gave up. Evidently shown by having only a handful of players showing up for the raid strategy meeting in ep2.
- Panicing doesn't necessary mean running around like a bunch of headless chickens. When you know there's no way to escape the world, what are you going to do? I'd stay put in the safe zone.

D) Kirito's Beta experience
- There could be many reasons why he couldn't find the boss room. But I'd say these reason will also require minimum knowledge of MMO mechanics.
- My interpretation is that, Kirito as a soloer has difficulty reaching the boss room without unreasonable risk. Dungeon mobs and traps don't exist for just fluff.
- Some other take is that, room layout changed. Or the pathway requires some dangerous maneuvering. I'll list an example from another NDS game: Etrian Odyssey. In that game's dungeon, it's relatively easy to guess where the boss room is. The hard part is finding the hidden door that leads to it. Now, apply this scenario to SAO: death game version. Not too farfetched even if it takes over a month to find the way in.

E) PVP
- Do remember that PVP in SAO = murder. Being only 1 month into the death game, I don't think anybody has degrade through the psychological barrier where they can attempt murder yet. Not to mention, there isn't enough resource for anyone to attempt proper PVP. Lvl 1 gear vs Lvl 1 gear? Ehhhh
- I cannot say more regarding PVP.

F) Time
- Again, a huge portion of the population is still hiding in town to be of help with any real progress. Right now there is a serious lack of human resource. Which is exactly why the raid in this episode is significant, as Diabel put it in the meeting. It will bring a thread of hope to the rest of the people if they can defeat the boss of the 1st floor, and encourage more people to join the front line.

[Iron Maw]

I'm assuming part of the reason no one could find the Boss floor for a month was because dungeons might be randomly generated with fake doors and traps, to prolong the game. Sounds like the dickish thing Kayaba would do.

[Paranoid Android]

Originally Posted by Iron Maw

I'm assuming part of the reason no one could find the Boss floor for a month was because dungeons might be randomly generated with fake doors and traps, to prolong the game. Sounds like the dickish thing Kayaba would do.

He has a Diablo-like map generator that randomizes everyday? ;D /bs-ing

I don't like the script in this episode. It's too forced and incoherent that it makes everything look shallow and everything just jumps to a conclusion.

D) Kirito's Beta experience
- There could be many reasons why he couldn't find the boss room. But I'd say these reason will also require minimum knowledge of MMO mechanics.
- My interpretation is that, Kirito as a soloer has difficulty reaching the boss room without unreasonable risk. Dungeon mobs and traps don't exist for just fluff.
- Some other take is that, room layout changed. Or the pathway requires some dangerous maneuvering. I'll list an example from another NDS game: Etrian Odyssey. In that game's dungeon, it's relatively easy to guess where the boss room is. The hard part is finding the hidden door that leads to it. Now, apply this scenario to SAO: death game version. Not too farfetched even if it takes over a month to find the way in.

He can't solo the boss. He doesn't solo bosses either despite being a solo-er. That's why he showed up at the meeting. If he could stick to his soloing ways even for bosses, he wouldn't show up at all. Or his harem-sense were screaming 'the meet is a great place to pick up pretty girls'. He only solo's when it's no longer a choice. Such as his group is down and he is the only one left standing.

He has his own mental civil war about getting -too involved- with others. Revealing his identity as a beta tester will get haters and followers. He doesn't want any followers. If he just told everything he knows (assuming he knows anything from beta that still applies in the full release), people will glue to him and rely on him.

[DurararaFTW]

When Kirito says no one found the dungeon he means, no one among these 40 people.

Its entirely possible that among the 2000 that died in the past month quite a few made it to the dungeon, but died. It's suppose to be competitive game, the information does not get automatically distributed.

[MisaoFan]

Spoiler for Episode 2:

As a beta tester just like everybody else, Kirito participates in a collective party proposed by Diabel, a professional knight. That's where he meet a young girl named Asuna. As the party is on the verge of being killed by Kobold monsters, Kirito and Asuna together defeat those monsters. Something bad happens when Kirito said that he experience such monsters' weaknesses so he must stand out from other players by calling himself a beater. When I was watching it, I feel like I was transferred in a typical MMORPG world except it features such unique premise and I'm liking it so far.

[Utsuro no Hako]

Originally Posted by jpwong

Even assuming the guidebook had an exact layout of the dungeon marking the boss room, given that after a month no one had found the room, it clearly indicates that at the minimum the dungeon layout is different than what it was in the beta. If the dungeon is the full size of that massive pillar, it's not exactly absurd to think the boss room wasn't found in the whole first month.

That's assuming they spent the entire month in the dungeon, but that'd be an incredibly stupid thing to do. You don't try the dungeon until you've leveled up several times and gotten better equipment than the default. I'd bet they only spent a week or ten days in the dungeon.

Originally Posted by xenapan

actually the implications i got from ep1 and him deciding to ditch his new friend, combine that with the fact that theres 10k users (8k if you pretend everyone that died by the end of the first month basically didnt accomplish anything). Scouring an RPG 24/7 for a MONTH on the first floor when the implication he gave was that
a) there were very limited resources in that monsters and quests would be killed and never replaced hence his haste to get away from the crowds and build an advantage for himself.

No one ever said that, and in point of fact we saw a mob respawn within the first episode. Kirito's point was that the number of mobs near the Starting City (i.e. the ones that a level one player can kill with little risk to himself) are less than 10,000 and their respawn rate is too slow to allow people to level up quickly.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

No one ever said that, and in point of fact we saw a mob respawn within the first episode. Kirito's point was that the number of mobs near the Starting City (i.e. the ones that a level one player can kill with little risk to himself) are less than 10,000 and their respawn rate is too slow to allow people to level up quickly.

Which is very evident if you've ever played an MMO during launch or in beta when thousands of people are the same level. I can't find it at the moment, but in the beta for WoW's next expansion, there were so many people in the new starting zone that they literally formed a line for a quest's node spawn. Not a short line, either. It was a couple of hundred people long. And you had to do that quest before advancing. If the same principle holds true in SAO...