2009-05-03, 01:59 | Link #1281 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Quote:
Which means it is entirely possible that Shinji is just going to go back to raping Sakura. Again. More now that Shirou isn't around to punch his face in. Eh. She's cute, but boring. I prefer Saber. |
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2009-05-03, 03:48 | Link #1282 | ||
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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If you want a reason, Shinji had a torturous near-death experience, being turned into a giant blob. That might have given him some incentive, kinda like 'is this what it's like to be a grail?' Quote:
See where I'm going? Unless the words of a character are proven wrong, saying 'this isn't true' based on an opinion is as unbased as any other claim without evidence. Bottomline: Yes, characters can lie and be wrong. But only when proven wrong. That, or that since he knows despite being in London, Sakura might have been the one who told him so. Sakura normally doesn't mention Shinji, if she did tell him this that would mean he did change. |
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2009-05-03, 04:11 | Link #1283 | ||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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See, Shinji isn't just an antagonist. He's a slimy, irredeemable git. Quote:
As as for Sakura's condition, well, we basically have objective proof of that... There's absolutely nothing to stop Shinji from going back to raping Sakura once he gets out of the hospital. Shirou and Rin are in London, and Zoken is dead. Shirou says this in UBW's epilogue, which takes place before he leaves Fuyuki, if I recall correctly. |
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2009-05-03, 04:38 | Link #1284 | ||
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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"Shinji was saved thanks to Tohsaka, and he's currently in the hospital. I guess the hospital is part of the magic association, and he's getting better. Sakura is busy visiting him, so she's been showing up at my place only during the weekends. I went to check up on them once, and they were getting along surprisingly well. I don't know if that event took something out of him, or if he's just unenergetic from the wounds. Either way, Shinji is ironic and honest, and he's acting a lot more like the Shinji I used to know." Oh, and there's also a full year between the epilogue and going to London. So we have several key things here:
Last edited by Keroko; 2009-05-03 at 04:54. |
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2009-05-03, 14:51 | Link #1285 | ||
NePoi!
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Age: 43
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...let's just say that while I agree that Saber is a fine character, I don't quite agree with your view regarding Sakura. I wouldn't be so keen to write for her otherwise.
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2009-05-03, 15:01 | Link #1286 | |
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Quote:
Then she went evil in the final day, and she was anything but a damsel. Throwing the entire damsel trope on its head, she decided she was done with being the victim and started being the victor. She scored major points there. Which is also why I defend her choosing to be evil. If not, it's all the Grail's fault, and Sakura is still a boring helpless damsel. |
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2009-05-03, 15:23 | Link #1287 |
NePoi!
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Age: 43
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So, you think that had Rin been handed over instead of Sakura, that she wouldn't have cracked under the strain, and thus be required to be gotten the hell out of that place in the same way?
It's really unfair to dismiss Sakura like that, when the kind of life she should have been able to live had been taken away for such a long time. I see Sakura as being a woman who has had so much in her young life taken from her - but at the same time, one who has a lot of potential once she is given the chance to live the kind of life she deserves... to blossom into the kind of person I believe she can be. Indeed, in my own attempts to write for her, the last thing I would want her to be treated as is a person who would constantly need a crutch. Rather, I would say that with the right help, the right advice, and the right chance for something more, she can step out of the shell that the past has conspired to put her in, and catch up with the kind of life experiences that are out there waiting for her... once she learns how to reach out and grasp it. Quite frankly, I'd rather write about that - even if no-one other than myself would ever give a crap about it - than assume the only way she can escape her past is to turn into a supervillain. And if saying all of this makes me into some kind of naive fanboy, well, so be it.
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2009-05-03, 15:53 | Link #1288 |
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Perhaps Rin would have turned out like Sakura had she been handed over, perhaps not. Sakura's mocking in the Bad End where she tortured Rin sure seems to suggest that Rin would not have held out nearly as good as Sakura had anyway. I can assure you though, if Rin had been written to be the one handed over and would have cracked and turned into a helpless damsel, I would not nearly like her as much as I do now.
The 'why' doesn't really matter. What matters is that as we play the game, Sakura is a helpless little damsel in distress that needs to be protected. If you like that, fine. I didn't. If Sakura had blossomed in the story as you describe she would, grow into a strong person who doesn't need a crutch and fought alongside Shirou against Zouken, then I would not have the opinion I do now. I would have loved her. However, she didn't. She did not blossom in the story after she was rescued, she remained a poor damsel that needed to be protected and saved. I would have loved to see Sakura grow strong in the story. That never happened. So her choosing to be evil was the next best thing, as the only alternative is accepting her being a poor little damsel for the entire game. I will much rather accept Sakura turning evil, at least that way I have something I like about her instead of nothing. |
2009-05-03, 16:08 | Link #1289 |
NePoi!
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Age: 43
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I don't see the game as a self-contained tale, but rather a part of a wider tapestry that other Nasuverse tales, be they already published (like Fate/Zero) or which may, one day, be released in the future, are each glimpses, or segments, of.
I guess it's the 'world-builder' habit I have when reading stories in settings I find compelling - I can't help but place the stories we see in the context of a wider world, a wider range of characters and possibilities, that may not have played a role in this or that particular story, but who may still be out there in the wider setting... ...and who, one day, may be able to play a role in taking things in a new and unforeseen direction. How many people did you know when you were 17 that you are still close to now, and how many have you met in the years (and places) since who have played the kind of role in your life that you couldn't have predicted back in the day? That kind of change has most definitely been the case for myself. (To give an example, one of my two longer fics is set 2-3 years after the Good ending of UBW, and includes an OC protagonist who was on the far side of the world in February 2004 - and at that time had no clue as to what his author would eventually have in store for him...) The endings for each particular timeline might give a certain take, or snapshot, on how things may or may not go, and one could assume that's a sign of how things will be from then on... ...but life doesn't work that way. At all. And nor need fictional timelines, either.
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2009-05-03, 17:03 | Link #1290 |
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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And yet, even if you do view Fate as something connected to a larger world, that does not change her character. As long as no official sources are released on it, her character remains as it was in Fate. I don't know how she is in Hollow Ataraxia, so maybe that game can change my views on Sakura, but without access to that, her character is as it is in Fate.
Sure, you could expand with fanfiction, but that would not be Sakura. Whatever you may write, that would be your Sakura. |
2009-05-03, 17:09 | Link #1291 |
NePoi!
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Age: 43
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It's a wide multiverse - one in which no character need develop the same way in every alternate reality.
Even if a Sakura askin to the one I try to write is canonised one day, it would still be valid in only some, and by no means all, possible Nasuverse timelines. But if there's even one out of millions of timelines where she can be so, that would be enough for me.
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2009-05-05, 00:12 | Link #1294 | ||||||||||
バルサミコス
Join Date: Oct 2008
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It's been a while since I visited these boards. Allow me to comment and reply to a few points that were brought up that I would like to contribute to.
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Same goes for the Fate route. There is no source of info relating anything about Zouken during or after the Fate route, so we can assume he just fades away into nothingness, if he hadn't already (consider the 'rotten worms in the basement'). By this point, he may have lost his ability to maintain his body and is in his last stretch of existence if he hasn't hit it already. Quote:
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It's like going through the horrific exposure of going to work everyday, eventually you get used to it. Having something big and unexpected at that point wouldn't be that big a deal as if it happened before you got used to everything else. Quote:
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While I believe her personality after this would make a change for the better and that Shinji would have a much harder time trying to force Sakura down anymore, I don't believe that Shinji has had much of a change. It's like the point I was arguing before about Shirou from the other routes compared to HF, you can't simply 180 degree your personality in an instant, it's something that requires a gradual change as you break from your 'norm' and change that to something else. Quote:
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However, would Rin have snapped? If you go through Fate/Zero and read the little bit about Rin, she was a hell of a lot tougher than Sakura. She would have kept Shinji in his place for the most part, or at the least, been the one wearing the pants of the two. ************************ Okay, I think puts me up to speed with everything. |
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2009-05-05, 01:26 | Link #1295 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Quote:
F/HA obviously takes place after some alternate ending where Shirou uses the grail to materialize the souls of all the servants. Or something. Kotomine was still a villain though, clearly, as he's still dead. Bawwww |
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2009-05-05, 01:38 | Link #1296 | |
Onee!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Auckland, NZ
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in this case however HF was clearly the canon route.
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2009-05-05, 11:51 | Link #1298 | |
Lord of Blades
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: in Unlimited Blade Works
Age: 32
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Oh yes he did. Watch as I quote him again.
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2009-05-05, 12:46 | Link #1299 | |
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Quote:
And if you want reasons:
Do tell, why? Last edited by Keroko; 2009-05-05 at 14:24. |
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2009-05-05, 14:28 | Link #1300 | |
バルサミコス
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Quote:
As with Kagetsu Tohya, the fan disc for Tsukihime, it is not to be seen as canon, but merely additional stories made for the purpose of entertaining the fans, not for the purpose of telling a serious story. It does introduce the characters of Avenger and Bazett (Fate hollow) but if you look at the clues provided in Fate, it is obvious that Bazett is dead. She was the one who summoned Lancer. As she was sent by the Mage's Association, she trusted Kotomine, whe was the Mage's Association's administrator for the 5th Holy Grail War. With her guard down, he forcibly rips the command seals from Bazett which entails ripping her arm off. During I believe the Fate route, it's mentioned that a Master was found, but they were already dead with their arm ripped off. With this, there is no way for Bazett to be alive for F/HA. There is no summoning of Avenger, he's just there when Bazett awakens...with both arms. The fan discs of Kagetsu Tohya and Fate/Hollow were made intended to be looked at as a fanfiction. This is probably one of the reasons why Mirror-Moon, no Taka-jun, doesn't want to touch Fate/Hollow. I hear he also disliked Kagetsu Tohya as well. I'm not touching this. We already went like 10 pages worth over this. |
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fate/stay night, visual novel |
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