[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Jan-Poo]

Well yeah two Beatrice is also a possibility that I'm considering, especially after seeing the EP6 cover. You know what I think? I'm beginning to think that the Beatrice that pay a visit to Shannon and Kanon is actually a memory of the 1967 Beatrice or the original Beatrice. Maybe they found her secret diary or something and they start to visualize her the same way Ange does with Maria.
Beatrice works as an alluring prospective for them to stop being furniture and find love, what we see there is the personification of a temptation. In the end, however, both Shannon and Kanon became the physical proxy of Beatrice in the real world.

As for the sin who causes people to die, it is probably something on the lines of "Keichi's sin". Who knows what kind of complex tragic situation was unconsciously triggered by Battler.

Originally Posted by Nontype

Does it work now? if not, try this link http://img.imgcake.com/pony_theory.jpg

It actually addresses your concern about the sin "not being between battler and beatrice" in a pretty interesting way. Personally, I like it, but I don't think it's true. It would make for an interesting AU though. Reading the Easymodo threads does really flesh it out, too.

Oh, I can state that at least one thing there is 100% wrong

this is Manon: 眞音
And this is Maria: 真里亞

not the same Kanji.

[Kitsu]

Well yeah two Beatrice is also a possibility that I'm considering, especially after seeing the EP6 cover. You know what I think? I'm beginning to think that the Beatrice that pay a visit to Shannon and Kanon is actually a memory of the 1967 Beatrice or the original Beatrice. Maybe they found her secret diary or something and they start to visualize her the same way Ange does with Maria.
Beatrice works as an alluring prospective for them to stop being furniture and find love, what we see there is the personification of a temptation. In the end, however, both Shannon and Kanon became the physical proxy of Beatrice in the real world.

Hm~, that is an intereseting thought and I wouldn't be surprised if something like that would be the case. But ehy would they "do" something like that. Ange envisioned Maria cause she had a bound with her beforehand, knew her and because she was really lonely and isolated. It was a deperate "action" (unwillingly but well). Shannon and Kanon might have been lonely but why owuld they envision a dead woman they didn't know?

The thing that bothers me about this part of the game is. Who is the narrator? How do we see this? Do we still see it throtugh a gameboard..through Beatrice words. A reality which can be bended to fool the viewer?
If that were the case...for example when Beatrice and Shannon were sitting at the beach and talking. Maybe in reality Jessica and Shannon were just at the beach chattering?

As for the sin who causes people to die, it is probably something on the lines of "Keichi's sin". Who knows what kind of complex tragic situation was unconsciously triggered by Battler.

Yeah, but Shion has the Hinamizawa syndrome and wasn't really stable. It is ehm understandable that such a "minimal" sin could trigger something like that cause Shions mental state was really fragile to begin with.
But here??

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

The sin I am now demanding that you remember is not between Ushiromiya Battler and Beatrice.
How do you get around that?

That's quite simple, I believe. If we remember Beatrice's dream at the beginning of EP3, we know she wasn't born with that name. "Beatrice" was a title she inherited. So, if Battler met that girl before she inherited that title, then the sin he's being asked about is indeed not between him and Beatrice.

Something I found interesting is that, unlike the Beatrice Rosa met, the girl in Beatrice's dream didn't seem to wonder about who she was. For example, the Beatrice Rosa met said Beatrice was her name, and that's that. In fact, it seemed as if that identity was forced on her. On the other hand, the girl in Beatrice's dream most likely had her own name - which quite likely wasn't Beatrice. And she inherited the title "Beatrice" out of her own will. So, I believe the Beatrice Rosa met and the one in Beatrice's dream are different people.

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Yeah, but Shion has the Hinamizawa syndrome and wasn't really stable. It is ehm understandable that such a "minimal" sin could trigger something like that cause Shions mental state was really fragile to begin with.
But here??

I think with K1's sin he meant "not trusting his friends".

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Oh, I can state that at least one thing there is 100% wrong

this is Manon: 眞音
And this is Maria: 真里亞

not the same Kanji.

It'd seem you can easily exchange the 1st kanjis in their names, though. Since they basically mean the same thing. All the same, I'm not a kanji expert; so, I'll refrain from discussing this any further.

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by Nontype

Does it work now? if not, try this link http://img.imgcake.com/pony_theory.jpg

It actually addresses your concern about the sin "not being between battler and beatrice" in a pretty interesting way. Personally, I like it, but I don't think it's true. It would make for an interesting AU though.

It's interesting, and explains the role of Kumasawa than my variation, but I am fairly puzzled then as to who is Beatrice III.
Assuming that Beatrice III is on the island at the time of the murders, than there are two possibilities: either she is one of the 17 or she is not. If she is not, that turns into Unknown Person X territory, so I'll go ahead and rule that out - as far as I'm concerned, one of the important aspects of the game is that Battler MUST realize someone on the island whom he might be close to is the murder (incidentally, this reason is why I'm so disinclined to suspect Kanon as being part of the murders, even though I really can't disprove him being part of them - out of all the people on the island, accusing Kanon and Gohda would be the easiest path out for Battler, as he barely knows the two of them, and I've discussed elsewhere why I'm certain Gohda has nothing to do with it.)
Now let us assume that Beatrice III is one of the people on the island then. Whom could it be?
Let us begin whom we can absolutely, 100% rule out.

Your theory explicitly rules out Genji, Battler, Shannon, and Kumasawa. If Shannon is roughly the same age as Beatrice, than that pretty much explicitly rules out everyone except Jessica ........and George . However, we know George meets Kinzo sometime in 1984 or 1983 when Eva takes him to see him in Episode 2, and while it's possible that Kinzo didn't recognize him, George seemed remarkably calm about meeting someone who had sexually assaulted him .... and that's not even getting into someone like George disguising as Beatrice.

Jessica is interesting. At first glance, one might argue that since Kinzo should have regularly seen Jessica in the early 1980s, it's impossible for the escaped Beatrice to be her. However, I will respond by a previous theory I've seen before:

Spoiler for Jessica Beatrice Theory (spoilered for length:

I have been kicking around the theory that Beatrice is in fact a hidden personality of Jessica, born from her own frustration at her position, Kinzo's madness, and perhaps Battler's percieved abandonment of her. I'm going to try and put my complete theory down in this thread, as I've only posted bits and pieces of it in various threads.

First of all. This theory assumes the information from Episode 3 concerning Beatrice is correct. Kinzo met her years before, and after borrowing the gold, fell in love with her. Kinzo, undeterred when she rejected him, simply took her by force, building a hidden mansion on the island he bought and imprisoning her there. Unable to escape, she eventually commited suicide.

However, she had a child, or Kinzo found an infant that bore a high enough resemblance, and this child was kept on in the hidden mansion for her entire life, looked after by Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo checking up on occasion. Years later, Rosa stumbles across the hidden mansion, and meets Beatrice #2 who has been desiring to leave and see the outside world. She leads that Beatrice out, only for her to fall from a cliff and die on the rocks below.

Again, she may have been pregnant, or another child was acquired. The timing here is important. Battler and Jessica were both born in 1967 roughly, since they are both 18 in 1985. In '67 Krauss and Natsuhi had been trying to conceive unsuccessfully for more than a decade. Since Kuwadorian wasnt used after Beatrice #2 died accidentally, Kinzo must have wanted to keep the newly born Beatrice someplace she could be kept under observation and not so isolated. So, he gave the child to Krauss and Natsuhi, sternly ordering them to look after her as their own. He may have even told them not to worry about proper succession, as she carried his blood. This might be why Krauss and Natsuhi are somewhat distant from their daughter.

Battler is born at roughly the same time, Rudolph's son, though not to Asumu. Asumu probably miscarried instead of Kyrie, and the Ushiromiyas forced Kyrie to turn over her child to Rudolph and Asumu. The miscarried child was going to also be named Battler, that name got passed on to Kyrie's firstborn (this is also why Battler and Ange look so alike). It has also been theorized that Jessica is actually Rudolph and Asumu's daughter, and was given over to Krauss for some reason. Then Battler was taken from Kyrie, and she may have been led to believe her child died.

As time passes, Kinzo's mind slips further into madness. Jessica is raised normally, though as she gets older Kinzo begins paying more and more attention to her, convinced she is yet another Beatrice. When Jessica and Battler are about 12, Battler says something to Jessica that leaves a deep impression on her, even if he thought little of it. He might have bragged that he'd come charging to the rescue if she were ever in trouble, or he'd help her escape from her oppressive family, something along those lines.

Shortly after, Asumu dies. Rudolph remarries quickly, to Kyrie, who is pregnant with Ange. Battler can't accept this turn of events, and leaves the family to live with Asumu's parents.

Kinzo's madness worsens. Jessica feels like Battler abandoned her. Kinzo starts visiting Jessica more often, telling her about the previous Beatrices, and revealing many of his secrets to her. At some point, Kinzo makes a move on Jessica. Given Kinzo's personality, he's not likely to ask. Also recall what Beatrice said about Kinzo's interests... This may have happened more than once. At some point, Jessica's mind, unable to accept what was happening to her and despairing over Battler, who never came, broke down and a new persona was formed, taking the name of Beatrice.

Sometime in 1983, Kinzo dies. Jessica may have killed him, perhaps trying to resist him. Krauss might have done it as well if he found out what was going on with all of Jessica's visits to his room (remember, like Rudolph told Kyrie once, even though he brags and blusters, Krauss can become the most reliable of the siblings when the chips are down. If he found out Kinzo was raping his daughter, I don't think Kinzo would be around much longer.). Either way, it was neccessary to conceal Kinzo's death, in order to protect his family and also prevent the distribution of the inheritance. In all likelyhood, all of the negative memories and emotions Jessica had experienced got shoved onto Beatrice and locked away.

A few more years pass. Beatrice spends most of the time dormant, though she does come forward to speak to Shannon, sadistically urging her forward deeper into a relationship with George,which she thinks is bound to fail. She even tells Kanon as much when he catches her before she regresses after one of her meetings with Shannon. Which makes the relationship Jessica wants to make with him rather... awkward, since he's afraid this is another cruel joke of Beato's. George and Shannon's relationship seems to be poised to succeed despite all odds, much to Jessica and Beato's envy.

Then word comes to Rokkenjima: Battler is coming back into the family. Beatrice awakens, and begins forming a plan to take revenge on Battler for forgetting his promise to her.

Jessica is in the perfect position to set the ball rolling. From her father, she know that all the siblings are in a precarious position financially. The tensions regarding the succession of the headship are getting high, especially with the rumor being spread among the siblings that whoever solves Kinzo's riddle will become the next head. Confirming this is enough to get people all hot and bothered.

Now throw in some wild cards. Through Kinzo, Jessica knows where the gold is. She knows the servants, probably better than her parents. She knows where Kinzo keeps Beatrice's old clothes. She knows about the emergency funds Kinzo set up, and where he kept all the keys. She can get out from her parents supervision for days at a time under the pretense of bad weather. She knows the ins and outs of both mansions. And don't forget, she knows Maria will believe just about anything if you say you are a witch.

From here, events depend upon the exact conditions of the game. She might carry out some of the killings herself, or it might not even be neccessary. She could be the person putting the magic circles and whatnot around the house, since she and Nanjo are the likliest to know how to make proper symbols (and she knows Maria can read them).

In the case of Episode 2, after she or her accomplice killed all the parents but Rosa, Kanon may have confronted her while she was alone with him. He stabbed her, she retaliated, and wound up killing him. She moved the body out of her room and hid it someplace, then locked herself back into her room, and later died.

Though, could she have been faking? I remember Beato saying Kanon was dead with the red, but was Jessica's death confirmed in the way? I don't recall as much, but if she knew where Kanon's body was, she could have dressed in his bloody clothes and a wig to fool the servants, however briefly, while she waited for a chance to attack them.

Not much red was used in Ep4, and none regarding Jessica really. She could have worn Beatrice's clothes and greeted Battler from the balcony. Despite Battler's surity that it was 'Beatrice', his outlook was warped after the converation with Kyrie. Plus, I dont know if it was a translation error or not: she was described as coming out of the second floor balcony. But Kinzo's room is on the THIRD floor, right? Jessica's is on the second flood if I recall correctly though... Either way, Battler was looking up at her from 10-20 feet or so, in the dark, while it was raining hard. I'm not going to begrudge him for fooling himself into believing it.

So anyway, that is my theory. There are holes in it, and plenty of things are still not explained. I'm not even touching who the 'Kinzo' that appeared in Ep4 was. But it covers alot pretty well I think.

In that theory, Kinzo dies later either from Jessica fighting back from being sexually assaulted or from Krauss going batshit after losing it. This would explain the fact that Kinzo died suddenly, as pertains to Episode 5.

Therefore, under /a/'s theory, the only person whom could possibly be Beatrice would be Jessica. It's an interesting thought, and might work where my theory doesn't.

That's quite simple, I believe. If we remember Beatrice's dream at the beginning of EP3, we know she wasn't born with that name. "Beatrice" was a title she inherited. So, if Battler met that girl before she inherited that title, then the sin he's being asked about is indeed not between him and Beatrice.

Something I found interesting is that, unlike the Beatrice Rosa met, the girl in Beatrice's dream didn't seem to wonder about who she was. For example, the Beatrice Rosa met said Beatrice was her name, and that's that. In fact, it seemed as if that identity was forced on her. On the other hand, the girl in Beatrice's dream most likely had her own name - which quite likely wasn't Beatrice. And she inherited the title "Beatrice" out of her own will. So, I believe the Beatrice Rosa met and the one in Beatrice's dream are different people.

Possible, but as I already described up there, that girl is either one of the 17 or unknown person X.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Used Can

That's quite simple, I believe. If we remember Beatrice's dream at the beginning of EP3, we know she wasn't born with that name. "Beatrice" was a title she inherited. So, if Battler met that girl before she inherited that title, then the sin he's being asked about is indeed not between him and Beatrice.

Not really convincing since the pony theory calles her "Beatrice III" and states that it was adopted by Kinzo to replace the one that died in 1967. You'd need to revise this part to make it credible, because obviously Kinzo tried to raise the 1967 girl as Beatrice and it would make zero sense for him to do it again but skipping the name part.

[Used Can]

I wasn't really going by that pony theory. I just wanted to get around that red.

But, anyway, I do remember the girl in Beatrice's dream talking about a certain grandfather. So, perhaps that was Kinzo? As for him raising her to be a new Beatrice. I honestly wouldn't know. The one Rosa met is still quite mysterious, in my opinion.

[luckyssol]

The Jessica is Beatrice theory is interesting. In episode 6, we'll probably learn whether or not she knew about Kinzo's status all along.

By the way, here's a link to a page that contains that Jessica is Beatrice theory as well as some other interesting theories:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...koNoNakuKoroNi

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Ssol

The Jessica is Beatrice theory is interesting. In episode 6, we'll probably learn whether or not she knew about Kinzo's status all along.

IIRC, the anime had an especially blatant clue about that. In the first episode when everyone was being escorted into the guest house...

Rudolf: How's Father's condition been lately?
Jessica: He's real lively! You'd never even guess that he only had three months to live.

[luckyssol]

Ah, you're right. The anime changed how she described Kinzo's status completely. Here what was said in the VN:

Rudolf: Jessica-chan, what's the head of our family's mood been lately?

Jessica: ...Hmm...Same as last year, I guess. ...Considering they say he's got three months left, he's as stubborn, grumpy, and irritable as ever.

...He's shut himself up in his study again, probably doing nothing but that weird black magic of his. What he does for a hobby is his own damn business, but when he starts stinking up the house, it really gets on my nerves. ...And I wish he'd never come out of that study again. Heheheh!

[ameskitty]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Ah, you're right. The anime changed how she described Kinzo's status completely. Here what was said in the VN:

That's a lot more questionable. To me that sounds a lot more like "Yeah, well, I haven't really seen him, now that I think about it, but I don't really give a damn and I wish he'd just die so they'd stop talking about him." It sounds a lot like Jessica's going off what the other people say, but then again if she's in on the "official story" it would also give off that tone.

Wonder if it's something they could've potentially forgot to check :/. If it's not that's pretty close to a confirmation, although there is still the possibility that it's not and Ryukishi let it slide because she doesn't outright say "I saw him the other day" or something.

As for the significance of Jessica knowing...I'd have to say there's very little. It kind of contradicts the stupidly loud side of her personality, but it goes with how she's defensive of her parents. In any case it doesn't have to make her Beatrice or the culprit.

EDIT: That does raise the question, though - why was it not made clear in the first place whether she knows or not?

[k//eternal]

Incidentally, when DOES he "stink up the house" (except for as a burned corpse)? It isn't anything that's happened recently, is it?

[Jokon]

Hello Umineko fans! I've been reading a number of threads and wanted to propose a theory regarding the number of people on the island. Unfortunately it relies on a nuance in language that may not exist in the original Japanese text. Since I do not speak, read or write Japanese I wanted to propose this theory in the open where someone could proof it.

This theory is based on knowledge gained up through EP4 and thus may be completely smashed by EP5 or EP6.

Although no more than 17 people exist on Rokkenjima during the time frame of the gameboards it is possible for more than 17 humans to exist on the island during that time.

This theory is based on the nuance that although person and human are virtually synonyms a person can be described as someone who is acknowledged as being part of a group. Given the lawful nature of the gameboards, a human who is stateless may not be considered a person as they do not have citizenship or official documents (birth certificate, registry)! Although there are numerous methods of gaining citizenship (and thus acknowledgement as a person) it is notoriously difficult for immigrants to become nationalized Japanese citizens. One way of becoming stateless is to be born on the open sea, but this method is only offered to satisfy the Devil's Proof.

Thus, Beatrice the human exists on Rokkenjima during all gameboards but since she lacks proper acknowledgement she can not be recognized as a person! Or a witch! Only human!.

If anyone can cut me down with some red truth from the original Japanese text, please do. I'm killing myself over here in thought.

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

With Kinzo already dead but his death unackowledged and hidden, his legal status should be that he's still alive. Since the person count was reduced for his death despite him being "legally" alive, this doesn't hold.

Similarly, no authorities are able to process anyone's deaths on the island during the game, so the red clearly isn't bound by legal status.

Crossposting from the other thread.

[Jokon]

Just because Kinzo is dead though doesn't mean he was not/is not a person; death doesn't erase that record.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Jokon

Just because Kinzo is dead though doesn't mean he was not/is not a person; death doesn't erase that record.

Can you show the proof that game used two different words - like you used "person and human" when describing the number of people on the island?

If not, there is no way to distinguish the two meanings at all. And what you said could not be true.

From what I have read, the Japanese texts used 人 when Beatrice said there were no more than 17 people on the island. She used 人 also in saying only Battler lived at the end of EP4. If what you said is correct, then the 人 used in the first case means "people", then it should be the same for the case of at the end of EP4 since the word used is the same. However, what you said is Beatrice was not a "person" but only a "human" so she could exist outside the 17 people. That could not explain why she said only 1 person existed at the end of EP4. Of course, you could argue that she killed herself some time before that.

But anyway, any theory attempting to create a space for 18X is missing the meaning of Umineko, IMO.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Jokon

*snip*

Unknown Person X, in other words. Yeah, no, sorry.

Originally Posted by Jokon

Just because Kinzo is dead though doesn't mean he was not/is not a person; death doesn't erase that record.

Then he should still count towards the "person count".

My theory is that people/humans still in existence when the game begins count towards the "no more than 17 on the island", even after they have died.

As Kinzo is always dead for over a year before the game begins, he doesn't count towards the 17.

Originally Posted by ijriims

From what I have read, the Japanese texts used 人 consistently.

Ah, the magic of language.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

IIRC, the anime had an especially blatant clue about that. In the first episode when everyone was being escorted into the guest house...

Rudolf: How's Father's condition been lately?
Jessica: He's real lively! You'd never even guess that he only had three months to live.

I actually found very suspicious that in Ep5 nothing is told about how Jessica dealt with Kinzo's death. I don't think it is very credible that she doesn't know because we have clear hints that Jessica used to see Kinzo around the house. Many people pointed how Jessica isn't smart, but she isn't a total airhead. Suddenly you don't see your grand father for two years straight and you don't even get suspicious? That can't be.

I am ready to bet that Jessica knows, 'though I don't know why it was concealed in Ep5.

[MeoTwister5]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I actually found very suspicious that in Ep5 nothing is told about how Jessica dealt with Kinzo's death. I don't think it is very credible that she doesn't know because we have clear hints that Jessica used to see Kinzo around the house. Many people pointed how Jessica isn't smart, but she isn't a total airhead. Suddenly you don't see your grand father for two years straight and you don't even get suspicious? That can't be.

I am ready to bet that Jessica knows, 'though I don't know why it was concealed in Ep5.

Perhaps, if she does know, that her knowledge of his death but the concealment of this is central to the mystery, at least for Ep5?

DUNDUNDUNDUUUUUUN!

[ijriims]

Well, Gohda did not suspect anything even he had not seen Kinzo for 2 years. So, it was not surprising that Jessica suspected nothing.

Well, they were, in my opinion, .............similarly innocent.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Suddenly I thought of something:

if Kinzo's death was concealed from Gohda, then he must still be cooking for Kinzo's meal all along. So WHO took care of the extra food?

Probably Shannon, this explained why she had such an amazing body...

[Kitsu]

Well, Gohda did not suspect anything even he had not seen Kinzo for 2 years. So, it was not surprising that Jessica suspected nothing.

Well, they were, in my opinion, .............similarly innocent.

I think there is a big difference between Gohda and Jessica. Gohda never knew Kinzo and wasn't used to meet him, get scolded by him etc. Also I think Gohda doesn't live on the island, correct?