[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[MeoTwister5]

I'm actually likening the possible situation to the story of King Solomon, 2 mothers, 1 living baby, 1 dead baby and the resulting feud on who's baby is who.

This cannot end well.

[Jan-Poo]

Cut the kid in half!

Wow... I involuntarily quoted radiohead while talking about a biblical story

[maximilianjenus]

The baby could also have goten stolen, which also fits the type of history. it was a female ushiromiya batler who later disguidsed herself as kanon. I do not support the kanon = shannon theory but I support the Kanon = female one.

[kaitwospirit]

Why don't we think that Kyrie might be lying about her miscarriage anyway?

There are lies all over the place in Umineko. We've never seen anyone say "Kyrie had a miscarriage" in red. Just imagine how... fitting it would really be to her character if our Battler was her son.

Imagine this: Asumu becomes pregnant. Kyrie gets pregnant a month or so later. CRAP GUYS. But Asumu got pregnant first, so Rudolf marries her, but promises to support Kyrie however he can, and hides her away somewhere so that her family doesn't realize that she's gone off to have a baby.

Asumu gives birth to Battler #1, but Battler #1 isn't at all healthy and dies soon after birth. But hey, wait, Kyrie's got a backup on the way! However, now that Rudolf is married to Asumu, everyone needs to believe that the baby is her son. Otherwise his inheritance is at risk, and Rudolf risks his father's wrath. (Remember that Maria would not have been born yet, so they don't know that apparently having an illegitimate child is not cause for disinheritance in the family, and I wouldn't want to be the one to test that myself...) So Kyrie's baby is named Battler, and is our Battler, Battler #2.

Kyrie tells everyone who knew that she was pregnant that she lost the baby while she was off hiding away, because this keeps her son in line for the wealth of the Ushiromiya family. However, naturally, she doesn't like this at all. Asumu, we suppose since she loved Battler like her own child, was okay with the arrangement -- or simply didn't know.

In this scenario, Battler #2, the one we all know and love, is still Rudolf's son, still Kinzo's grandson, but was not born from Asumu and is not her son despite having been raised that way. (And this is far more likely than my last idea.)

[Marion]

Why would Kyrie give her son away to Asumu though. She hates her. Also, Asumu and Rudolf only married after Battler was born. Wouldn't it be easier to just divorce Asumu and marry Kyrie in that case? Considering Asumu is implied to come from a common background and Kyrie is from the Sumadera family, I'm sure none of the siblings would pay mind to it if they can get something out of the Sumadera family through Kyrie.

And what purpose would lying about a miscarriage have in the situation it was revealed in. It was an anti-fantasy battle after all. I don't feel like everything needs to be in red, because Kyrie obviously holds disdain towards Asumu. She even told Battler that she was sorry for acting cold to him when they met just because he was Asumu's son.

[kaitwospirit]

I don't know much about Japanese divorce law, but I know that in a large part of the United States it would simply be impossible to divorce someone just because they had a child and he or she died - and there are often limits on how long you must be married to be divorced.

I would think that Kyrie would resist giving her son to Asumu, but if the idea was that Battler would be raised with a share in the fortune, that would be much more tempting.

If Kyrie still assumed that the person killing everyone was trying to get the money, sticking to the party line about Battler's birth could only help in that situation. Kyrie could have acted cold to Battler for any number of reasons when they first met. Perhaps she thought that he hadn't been raised correctly and acted wrong, or she was disappointed in him for never realizing who his real mother was.

This doesn't seem very likely anyway, I'll agree, but it makes about as much sense as anything else anyone is proposing.

[Jan-Poo]

Well the points that are dubious in this theory are various

The first as Marion mentioned, why would Kyrie let her own son be raised by Asumu? It's not like Kyrie is that poor herself, unless there is a strict Sumadera law we are not aware of that tells the "bastard" children must be disposed of, then that would be a good reason... but it's mere speculation @_@

The second problem is: why would Asumu raise Kyrie's son? Is she not aware of the baby swap? That seems unlikely, but well not entirely impossible...

The third problem is: why would Rudolf accept this? Now there are two possibilities: if Rudolf only married Asumu because she got pregant then that reason became null and void. Else Rudolf could have tried to have another baby from Asumu. Again this could be explained if Asumu was told she could never have another baby for some reasons...

This whole triangle reminds me of Makoto, Kotonoha, Sekai in school days... except Rudolf avoided the nice boat by not telling Asumu to abort, well he avoided that for the next 18 years...

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Well the points that are dubious in this theory are various

The first as Marion mentioned, why would Kyrie let her own son be raised by Asumu? It's not like Kyrie is that poor herself, unless there is a strict Sumadera law we are not aware of that tells the "bastard" children must be disposed of, then that would be a good reason... but it's mere speculation @_@

The second problem is: why would Asumu raise Kyrie's son? Is she not aware of the baby swap? That seems unlikely, but well not entirely impossible...

The third problem is: why would Rudolf accept this? Now there are two possibilities: if Rudolf only married Asumu because she got pregant then that reason became null and void. Else Rudolf could have tried to have another baby from Asumu. Again this could be explained if Asumu was told she could never have another baby for some reasons...

This whole triangle reminds me of Makoto, Kotonoha, Sekai in school days... except Rudolf avoided the nice boat by not telling Asumu to abort, well he avoided that for the next 18 years...

Technically Ange is a bastard child as well. Rudolf isn't Kyrie's arranged husband, so I think any child Kyrie would have not with the arranged husband would be considered bad. Considering how the family appears to act I wouldn't be surprised if Kyrie didn't have good feelings towards her family. If Kyrie didn't miscarry then I'm sure she would have gotten married to Rudolf and then just leave the family behind. And like I said - Ushiromiya family probably wouldn't mind, since comparing Asumu's background to Kyrie's background obviously Kyrie is richer and has better political power than Asumu's family.

Like I said before Jan - we should be more than glad neither woman went off the edge and did the Nice Boat.

[rstrafford]

Could Asumu be mistaken in believing that she's "Asumu"? I remember from Higurashi (possibly incorrectly) that Mion and Shion swapped roles so easily that other people couldn't tell them apart. Maybe Asumu was a twin where the real Asumu dies and she takes on her sister's role?

[Marion]

Originally Posted by rstrafford

Could Asumu be mistaken in believing that she's "Asumu"? I remember from Higurashi (possibly incorrectly) that Mion and Shion swapped roles so easily that other people couldn't tell them apart. Maybe Asumu was a twin where the real Asumu dies and she takes on her sister's role?

Mion and Shion were aware that they swapped though. And I don't see why this twin would do that.

And frankly I don't want another twin swap thing. It's silly and a bad way to explain things. Like Doubt did with the ending to their manga. Now THAT was a bad way to explain stuff.

[rstrafford]

Originally Posted by Marion

Mion and Shion were aware that they swapped though.

Okay. Point. But hypothetically Battler wouldn't know that.

[Jan-Poo]

if it wasn't for the red truth It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born it would be easy to explain everything else by stating that Asumu is not Asumu but another person. Alas the red truth is in the way, because there's no way anyone not related to the Ushiromiya we know would get such a strange name.

[rstrafford]

But by marrying Rudolf, Asumu becomes Ushiromiya Asumu because the real Asumu would've never married Rudolf?

[stray]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Now let's recapitulate the red truths and the theories:

1)Ushiromiya Battler's mother is Ushiromiya Asumu.
2) My name is Ushiromiya Battler.
3) It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born.
4) You are not Ushiromiya Asumu's son
5) Ushiromiya Battler is not Ushiromiya Asumu's son
6) Battler is not Asumu's son

Failed to repeat:

"It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that I was born"

There's only one Battler but Battler is a girl
Doesn't work else Battler would still be born from Asumu.

Technically, all we know is that Battler couldn't say that he was born from Asumu.

The Battler we know has been born from c-section
Doesn't work, he'd still be Asumu's son.

The Battler we know is born from Asumu, just not Ushiromiya Asumu, because she wasn't married yet
Doesn't work, see point six

Technically, if he was born before she was married, she would have had to disown him on joining the Ushiromiya family... but that's all I've really got.

What could work?

Asumu had two twins, the male one seemed to be allright but the female one had to be brought to light with a c-section. However the male one died after a while due to complications. Asumu went crazy for some reason and then she pretended the female one died thus rising her daughter as if she was her brother Battler, she also received the same name. Of course this female Battler is our Battler.

This is completely fucked up, but it works...

PS: I'd like people to use "red" only for things that are absolute facts. If you have a theory use "blue" instead. Thanx.

#1 and #5 is the worst contradiction. In red, it is stated (with no doubt about context) that Battler's mother is Asumu... and yet Battler is not Asumu's son. That contradiction has to be true on both sides... sadfkhjlsa mindphuck!!!

I still am having trouble signing onto female Battler, even though it's damn near the only thing that satisfies all the conditions.

Unless, maybe... depending on your anti- lean (I'm more anti-mystery, personally) Battler is actually Ange's (hm... or Beato?) delusion, or was from the start reborn from nothing (ala Sakutaro) by Ange. It's a stretch, but I think that would satisfy the contradiction.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by stray

Technically, all we know is that Battler couldn't say that he was born from Asumu.

We also know that he is Ushiromiya Battler, he said that in red.
And that really gives little space for speculations:

The Battler we know is Ushiromiya Battler
Ushiromiya Battler was born from Asumu
The Battler we know wasn't born from Asumu


Can you come up with a different explanation other than there are two people named Ushiromiya Battler?
The Battler doesn't exist really can't work, either you can make claim about something inexistent (and therefore Battler shouldn't have any problem), or you can't make statements about things that do not exist, and therefore those red truths couldn't be said.

Originally Posted by stray

Technically, if he was born before she was married, she would have had to disown him on joining the Ushiromiya family... but that's all I've really got.

I'm not sure about this. Of course I don't know how laws work in Japan of 1986, but in my country marriage is really unimportant for such matter. If the father recognizes the child, he can give him his surname regardless of marital status.

Also I'm not sure either that Battler has born before the marriage, do we have any confirmation about this?

Originally Posted by stray

#1 and #5 is the worst contradiction. In red, it is stated (with no doubt about context) that Battler's mother is Asumu... and yet Battler is not Asumu's son. That contradiction has to be true on both sides... sadfkhjlsa mindphuck!!!

I still am having trouble signing onto female Battler, even though it's damn near the only thing that satisfies all the conditions.

Unless, maybe... depending on your anti- lean (I'm more anti-mystery, personally) Battler is actually Ange's (hm... or Beato?) delusion, or was from the start reborn from nothing (ala Sakutaro) by Ange. It's a stretch, but I think that would satisfy the contradiction.

No that wouldn't satisfy the I'm Ushiromiya Battler red truth.
"Two Battlers exist" is still the best possible theory you can come up with.

[Shinndou]

However Beato said in Blue:

You are a different person with the same first and last names as Ushiromiya Asumu's son Ushiromiya Battler.

This should be enough to point that there most likely an other Battler in the Ushiromiya family. We don't know if Asumu's Battler is one of the other 16 people on the island nor we know the gender, but I think it's safe to assume after this that there is a high possibility. Meta-Battler's sin could be related to this. Maybe he did "replace" the Asumu's Battler six years ago.

[Jan-Poo]

And that's exactly what I'm saying °°;

[stray]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

We also know that he is Ushiromiya Battler, he said that in red.
And that really gives little space for speculations:

The Battler we know is Ushiromiya Battler
Ushiromiya Battler was born from Asumu
The Battler we know wasn't born from Asumu


Can you come up with a different explanation other than there are two people named Ushiromiya Battler?
The Battler doesn't exist really can't work, either you can make claim about something inexistent (and therefore Battler shouldn't have any problem), or you can't make statements about things that do not exist, and therefore those red truths couldn't be said.

Fixed. That can only be inferred, unless I'm missing a line from in the game. That doesn't satisfy I'm Ushiromiya Battler either, but if we assume that to be true, then Battler was born from Asumu and not born from Asumu at the same time.

Actually I don't know why I'm putting that in blue, it makes no fucking sense. But that's the contradiction at the end of the "our Battler was not born from Asumu" road.

I'm not sure about this. Of course I don't know how laws work in Japan of 1986, but in my country marriage is really unimportant for such matter. If the father recognizes the child, he can give him his surname regardless of marital status.

Also I'm not sure either that Battler has born before the marriage, do we have any confirmation about this?

It's implied he's born before they were married. It's a huge technicality, but... it kind of sort of makes sense...

No that wouldn't satisfy the I'm Ushiromiya Battler red truth.
"Two Battlers exist" is still the best possible theory you can come up with.

That's kind of true, but unless you go the she-Battler route, it goes back to what I was saying before. The second Battler basically has to be an extension of the first. Basically, one Battler born from Asuma, one Battler not born from Asuma... but the same Battler.

I need some Tylenol...

[Shinndou]

Stray, let's suppose your theory about the "extension" regarding Battler being born before Asumu married (only gaining the Ushiromiya name after that) is "true". Why would Beato go through all the trouble of doing that? How much of a difference would it make?

That's why I think it's certainly more "convenient" to speculate that a real second Battler (whether it's a guy or a girl) exists. That way we could come up with theories regarding his potential "sin", it makes more sense afterall. Of course, we are not sure that Battler's sin is related to it, but I doubt Beato would throw such a hint randomly after questioning Battler.

[Jan-Poo]

Battler tried to say that he was born from Asumu, and he failed. That to me counts as a red truth.

It's implied he's born before they were married. It's a huge technicality, but... it kind of sort of makes sense...

Honestly I only remember that is being said that Rudolf married Asumu because she was pregnant. I might be wrong, but I won't really believe this unless I see a quote from the game.