2013-08-21, 00:36 | Link #341 | |||
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Just to say this in advance (well, in advance of this post and any further posts) I tend to speak my mind rather bluntly. I don't actually intend to be offensive (most of the time ) but I've found that if I go out of my way to avoid giving offense I often fail to get my point across.
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Have you, by any chance, gone back and read that flashback, where Iris and Kiritsugu mention that Illya has only been alive for about 8 months at that point? And then remember that that point was explicitly stated to be the point when Kuro was sealed, which is also explicitly stated to have occured roughly ten years before the "present" in the timeline?
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2013-08-21, 14:41 | Link #342 |
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Occam's Razor. Don't assume things you don't have to just to reach a conclusion you want to reach when the simplest explanation is the most likely.
Especially consider that it's been stated that the Kaleid world shifted 200 years ago, not 10 like the various routes from Fate/Stay Night. That gives a lot of butterfly effects a chance to occur. And because it's based off of something, the characters we all know and love will still be here, but they won't be exactly the same as we know them. |
2013-08-21, 16:12 | Link #343 | ||||
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The reason I'm saying the Illya is the core is because she isn't the Lesser Grail as the incomplete Holy Grail is sleeping at an underground cave at Mt. Enzou according to Caren. Chapter 23 page 18-19.
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Holy_Grail#Greater_Grail Quote:
Since the first Holy Grail War ritual happened in modern times there was no need for homunculus to be the grail vessel. http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Holy_Grail_War#History Quote:
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Illya can grant herself wishes but it has to go through her other personality. The one who fought Saber then was Kuro side of her. Since Illya wishes for a normal life the only thing the Greater Grail can do is spit out Kuro, her mage half. Being the core Illya and Kuro is still connected to the Greater Grail. Miyu can't make wishes for herself even if she is the complete Lesser Grail of her world. But somebody else can make a wish through her. As seen with her universe's Shirou wishing her a better life and have friends. What happened is that she only deposited herself to the location of the grail ritual in Illya's world. |
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2013-08-21, 17:13 | Link #344 | |
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2013-08-21, 17:17 | Link #345 | |
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Kiritsugu and Iris are discussing about stopping the ritual. Illya was only 8 months old. |
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2013-08-21, 17:37 | Link #347 | ||||||||
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The "life of eight months" is clearly referring to Ilya's age. Quote:
You also never see a physical grail when Gil attempts to take it. All that was shown was a large magic circle, which can easily be what Caren was referring to when she spoke of the "incomplete Holy Grail". Quote:
1) Being the "key" does not equate to the Greater Grail. All it implies is that Ilya is essential, which can be a number of things like the equally important Lesser Grail vessel. 2) If what you suggested was true and Justeaze did not become the core of the Greater Grail, then it is impossible for any wish granting to happen. In F/SN, Justeaze provided the magic circuits needed to complete the Greater Grail. She was the final parts to the Greater Grail's engine. In your case where Justeaze's sacrifice for whatever reason and Ilya is supposed to be the core, granting wishes is still not possible until Ilya physically gives up her body to complete the Greater Grail, yet it still was. The Greater Grail already has its core, and it's not Ilya. Quote:
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The Greater Grail does not have prana on its own. The reason why there needs to be a Lesser Grail vessel in the first place is because the Lesser Grail is the fuel tank that gathers the fuel needed for the Greater Grail to run its course. It has never been required to be the Greater Grail itself to grant wishes, because the Grail responds to any worthy will that calls to it. Quote:
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Either way, there is no evidence to suggest that Miyu can't do what Ilya can do, considering they both have large supplies of prana and are able to use a form of Third Magic to Install Servant cards. Miyu herself has not been shown to make any wishes, so there is nothing to prove that she can't. As far as prana and magic abilities ago, Miyu is very close if not equal to Ilya. The entire series/franchise emphasizes this fact and is also the very reason why Miyu sympathizes with Ilya so much. They are kindred spirits intended to be sacrificed for the Grail ritual they don't really care about. |
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2013-08-21, 19:09 | Link #348 | |||||||
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In Miyu's world the Ainsworth's has been collecting Mystic Codes and Holy Grails finding them useless till they found Miyu. For crying out loud you were the the one who claimed Illya is Homunculus when she isn't. She's not an eighteen year old in a ten year old body. She's a ten year old girl. Quote:
Note this the first time in the Kaliedverse history there is a Holy Grail War. Illya is not the Grail vessel. Caren said explicitly the Holy Grail is at Mt. Enzou. But that wasn't Gilgamesh was after. That was the place where the dimensional rift exist. Remember half of Gil is under the Ainsworth suppression control. He just lured Miyu there to be picked up. Quote:
Over 200 years ago the Einzbern's did not ask for Tousaka and Makiri's help. No Holy Grail War, No Heaven's Feel ritual. But the implication of Kuro to Rin is that 10 years ago the Einzbern managed to acquire help from the Tousaka and Matou to start a Holy Grail War for the first time. The Fourth Grail War is the First Grail War with Servants. Kiritsugu and Iris nipped that in the bud. Quote:
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Kuro gaining Archer's body was part of Illya's wish to live and part of Illya wanting to be normal. Quote:
I'm here giving references and proof and all you do is argue it is exactly like FSN/F Zero. Note different universe with different history. Cite your proof and sources if want to continue this debate. |
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2013-08-21, 19:17 | Link #349 | |
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Not to interrupt this argument (at the moment I don't have a stake in the greater vs lesser grail discussion) but I do want to put in my two cents on just one comment that was made...
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Thinking about it, the grail's wish-granting power doesn't judge intent, correct? Kuro wished "I don't want to disappear! I just want to live!" The means by which that would be accomplished were not specified. The wish has been granted, to the letter. She did not disappear, and thanks to Illya supplying her with prana she can continue to live.
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2013-08-21, 23:10 | Link #350 | |||||
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And it was stated in 3rei that the Ainsworths were collecting magic artifacts and Mystic Codes to recreate the Grail, though all of their attempts failed until they happened to stumble upon Miyu, who as Gil states in ch26 of 2wei is a "human [who] ended up with the functions of a Holy Grail". Quote:
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If Miyu was his only target from the beginning, he would have kidnapped her first, then fled. It's made increasingly obvious Gil acted out of self-interest when 3rei comes around and he fights Angelica. Quote:
What you are suggesting has contradictions. What you are suggesting means that Ilya/Kuro has full functions of the Greater Grail all on her own before her parents sealed her. If that was the case, then it defeats the purpose of needing Servants, an entire war, and general ritual in the first place. It makes no sense for there to be a Lesser Grail when there was never any need for a "middle man" under your proposal. Second, in 2wei and by your own admission, the Grail is sleeping under Mount Enzo. Since you are so fixated on how Ilya was the "key" to the ritual, why did Caren say that the Grail was at Mount Enzo instead stating that the "key" was standing right in front of her? The Greater Grail and Heaven's Feel ritual is a system composed of multiple parts. The original ritual this series is based on required large about of prana and land for the for Greater Grail to be summoned. The Tohsakas provided the land to inscribe the magic circle needed for the large-scale ritual. That circle was inscribed under Mount Enzo in F/SN, which is - surprise, surprise - the same location as in Prisma Ilya. That magic circle inscribed into the land is what Caren was monitoring, not some physical grail cup or whatever you're suggesting it is. Kuro did make her own wish to exist at Luvia's bath. But she does not have access to Illya's prana. Kuro gaining Archer's body was part of Illya's wish to live and part of Illya wanting to be normal.[/QUOTE] This is my mistake. I thought I recalled Ilya making the wish instead of Kuro for some reason. Quote:
Quote the lines where it states that parallel Shirou used the Grail's power alone. All Shirou says to Ilya is "so it came true" and "half of my wish came true". People can infer what he wished for, but nowhere is it explicitly stated what Shirou's entire wish was or how exactly he came into contact with the Grail. I'm not the one who gave multiple type moon wiki links. There is a difference between no evidence and ignoring it, as convenient as it is for you. Last edited by Shadow5YA; 2013-08-21 at 23:22. |
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2013-08-22, 00:24 | Link #351 | ||||||
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Zwei Chapter 27 Quote:
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Illya was adjusted to be the core of the Greater Grail but Iris sealed all that. The fact Illya and Kuro can grant wishes for themselves they are connected to the Greater while the Lesser Grail is inactive. Danger to Illya's life broke the seal. Quote:
Which is he asks Illya to beat him if she can or run. He doesn't like what the Ainsworth did to him. Quote:
To grant a wish the Lesser Grail must be won in a regular Holy Grail War where all 7 Servants are absorbed. A Master and a Servant can't ask the Greater Grail to grant a wish without winning. Illya and Kuro does not have that hangup as they are part of the Greater Grail. Last edited by ReddyRedWolf; 2013-08-22 at 00:40. |
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2013-08-22, 13:54 | Link #352 | ||||
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Even in 3rei, Shirou only said half his wish came true (the making friends part). Ilya was very likely not human before Kuro was sealed. Being naturally born is beside the point - so was F/SN Ilya. What slowed her aging was the Einzbern's modifications before and after birth. Kuro explicitly states the same happened in Prisma Ilya in chapter 10 of 2wei. It's just that the changes made to her body were reversed/suppressed when her parents sealed Kuro away. Quote:
The Greater Grail needs a set of magic circuits to function. In F/SN's world, Justeaze provided the circuits with the first Heaven's Feel. In Prisma Ilya, the Grail should not have the circuits needed to function if the ritual never happened. If Ilya is meant to be the core but she never did, then that means the Greater Grail lacks the circuits to grant any wishes, period. Quote:
It was heavily implied that Gil was doing something to himself before Ilya and Miyu intervened, ending up with Gil half-incarnating as a child. The reasonable explanation would be that Gil tried to free himself from his Archer card and the Ainsworths, but took Miyu as a plan B when Ilya interrupted. Quote:
The Greater Grail does not have a will, Avenger aside. It is a system. The system is a large scale magecraft ritual that requires a large amount of magic circuitry and prana. The Lesser Grail is a system that captures the large amount of prana taken from the Servants, and the Greater Grail requires the mystic code inscribed into the land along with the high amount of magic circuits provided by whatever Einzbern who will become the core of the Grail. The Grail does not necessarily need to happen the way Zouken designed it in F/SN by your own admission. The magic circle inscribed into land is still there in Prisma Ilya, while the prana needed can be provided by other sources like Zelretch's Kaleidosticks (Ruby stated she was familiar with Gil's ritual in chapter 24) or whatever the Ainsworths have which is clearly different from the traditional ritual the Einzberns were trying to start. With Ruby being familiar with the Grail ritual, it's possible that Zelretch had alternatives in mind after Miyu brought Ainsworth style magecraft via the cards to Ilya's world appeared involving the sticks. |
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2013-08-22, 20:15 | Link #353 | ||||
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Illya when endangered by Saber wishes her to be defeated. Illya has a card with her thus the best way is to assume the form of Archer. Illya wants to not be killed by Assassins. The came with what Ruby said jokingly of a massive firepower. She used that. Illya wanted to live a third time and half wants normalcy in her life. What came out is her sealed mage half. Kuro wishes to live but she did not specify how. She isn't erased but she still needs somebody to provide her mana. Shirou wishes for a better world for Miyu. The wish is made by the most practical way. Send Miyu to a parallel universe. In FSN Kiritsugu wishes for peace. The corrupted grail tells him the best way is that everybody dies. Quote:
That blows away your assertion Illya is a homunculus. That and Illya ages as a normal child. Quote:
What she did not expect is that it was her hometown and her folks are involved. Quote:
The reason why Ruby found this ritual familiar is that Second Magic was happening for some reason. What is on the world that time in the cave is not what the Einzbern made, it got transported to Miyu's world but it is the area from Miyu's Mt. Enzou. |
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2013-08-22, 20:39 | Link #354 | |
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From the point in time when Miyu arrived in Illya's world until the point when she was taken away again, the cave in Mt. Enzou was not actually the cave from Illya's world. They explained it near the end of Zwei: a spherical gap in space had formed, and the cavern from Miyu's world and some of the area surrounding it was actually sitting in the place of the cavern from Illya's world. It didn't displace that part of Illya's world, exactly, but it overlayed it, and as long as it was there it was physically impossible to enter the cavern that belonged to Illya's world. So the cavern that Gilgamesh broke into was not the cavern from Illya's world, but the cavern from Miyu's.
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2013-08-23, 22:28 | Link #355 | |||
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Kiritsugu still gets peace if no one else is left alive. Miyu's world has not improved one bit. Shirou even states that only half his wish came true. Quote:
I don't buy it. I can believe she was turned into a normal human with the magic that sealed Kuro away, but it's a big stretch to assume that she has been normal from the very beginning. Quote:
Before that (which inclues 10 years ago), it was 100% the Einzbern's ritual. |
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2013-08-23, 23:13 | Link #356 | |||
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Half of Shirou wish came true is because the Ainsworth caught Miyu and brought her back to hell. Quote:
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2013-08-24, 01:28 | Link #357 | |
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And you still haven't proven those words said to Miyu on that page was a direct request to the Grail and not just parting words he left her with before making his final stand against the Ainsworths so she can escape. Not very good proof, because Sakura (and Kariya before her) were quite imperfect and unstable compared to the Einzberns. You appeared to be using the "different ritual" as evidence that Prisma Ilya's entire grail ritual was different, which is clearly false. The ritual was different was because it was switch with the Ainsworth's world, not because it was different from the beginning of its conception. |
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2013-08-24, 04:50 | Link #358 | |||
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Which is why Miyu said she is sorry to Shirou not fulfilling his wish. It is the first time a Shirou will sacrifice his ideals just to save one person. It happens in one of the FSN routes. Quote:
Heck Gil made Shinji the grail vessel just sticking Illya's heart in him. Quote:
The grail vessel was a cup from the first to third grail war. Kaliedverse first grail war is 10 years before. The Einzbern did not make Illya the grail vessel. As Caren said in chapter 24 their version of the Holy Grail was sleeping in Mt. Enzou. But it wasn't there anymore because of Miyu. It was not just the cave area of Mt. Enzou that switch places but the grails did so as well. An Equivalent Exchange. Miyu switched places with the Einzbern grail. On another note given what Tanaka drew and from what Kuro and Bazett heard that a meteor created the crater. Someone tried to pull a Crimson Moon but somebody else pulled Zelretch magic ether canon. A magic circle cube. Last edited by ReddyRedWolf; 2013-08-24 at 05:14. |
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2013-08-24, 14:21 | Link #359 | ||||
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You are extrapolating. You also fail to realize the contradiction that if Shirou said those words to Miyu as a wish, he should have been where the Grail was and transported to Ilya's world as well. Quote:
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An Equivalent Exchange. Miyu switched places with the Einzbern grail.[/QUOTE] The circle for the ritual was under Mt. Enzou! Good god, how many times do I have to say this? You see the thing when Gil activates it! It's not a physical grail. |
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2013-08-24, 16:14 | Link #360 | ||||||
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Miyu is the grail in his world. What transported in exchange was only the physical area and the respective grails. Not Shirou or the Ainsworth. Quote:
Illya isn't the Lesser Grail as 1. Caren stated the Einzbern Holy Grail is on Mt. Enzou. 2. Illya is born to be key to the ritual of the Holy Grail War according Irisviel. The Key to the Ritual is becoming the core of Greater Grail as Justeaze sacrificed herself. http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Holy_Grail_War#History Quote:
Illya was to be placed in it but the ritual was stopped by Kiritsugu and Irisviel by sealing Illya's power. It was never completed but Illya was still connected to the Greater Grail. Thus having Third Magic. Quote:
The fact Illya grows up normally and does not have a limited lifespan goes against you assertion she is one. http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Holy_Grail#Container Quote:
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What happened was an attempt of the Ainsworth to bring over Miyu by controlling the suppressed part of Gilgamesh. The part that wasn't suppressed which Ilya brought out, shota Gil, can care less about obtaining Miyu. One way or another he wants out of the Ainsworth control. That is why he merges with his black half to completely incarnate himself and he also asked Illya if she can to beat this version of himself. The moment Gilgamesh was defeated the Ainsworth come out of the distortion this not a coincidence. edit: Based on this bio of a Fate/Apocrypha character doll making refers to the creation of golems. Since Gil mocks Angelica not being human and calls her and Beatrice Dolls given the closest terminology it is likely they are golems. Last edited by ReddyRedWolf; 2013-08-25 at 21:30. |
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fate/kaleid liner, magical girl spinoff |
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