Kanon 2006 (Generic Discussion)

[Cyz]

Look at this: Random Curiosity: FreezeFrame

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Cyz

Look at this: Random Curiosity: FreezeFrame

Poster is entirely right. Kanon is all hype and no substance. Heck, it only got 18000 downloads in 24 hours which is pathetic considering the hyping that you see of it on this board. The only redeeming point of the series is hearing Kyuuichi making sarcastic remarks and there aren't even enough of those.

[orion]

Well, we like what we like and we have our favorite groups. Maybe the others are waiting for the other groups to come out with their version or are downloading raws only. At least 3 groups haven't released a first episode yet.

[Skane]

Sometimes I get the feeling that people just want Kanon to fail for various reasons...

There are the people who inexplicably blame Kanon for not giving us more SHnY, even though SHnY was an unknown factor prior to its' popularity boom( so KyoAni had little reason to invest too much money into it lest it bombed), and the fact that up until now, KyoAni has never made a series longer than one cour( 3 months).

Then there are the people who seem to get a kick out of jeering at the eager fanboys who have been waiting positively ages for this remake ever since it was announced. Yes, I do agree that some of the fanboyism have been obnoxious( what's new?), but for the majority of us, we have been nice and not slapping Kanon into the faces of those who do not like it, limiting our ecstatic cheer to other fanboys.

Then there are the people who just want to hate KyoAni because hey, they're the golden boys now and it is always fun for detractors to throw stones at the golden boys...

There are probably other reasons, but what hey.

Cheers.

[Cyz]

people like to criticize every little things because they want to prove that Kanon isn't all that great. So, they have to look for every tiny bit of detail to satisfy their...well, we can say "cruel intentions" on ruining its image so other people might see it their way

[panzerfan]

I disagree. Kanon's substance is not evident in day 1 of the game either. You can make the same comment base on merely 1 episode of AIR. To slam Kanon right now I think is premature... and merely using that an an excuse and being critical. I daresay that it is taking things out of context bayoab.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by bayoab

Poster is entirely right.

It should probably be pointed out at this point that the original poster also admitted it amounted to "comment-whoring" (he posted an overly extreme point of view that doesn't entirely match his opinion to provoke a reaction and increase the number of comments). But that shouldn't be that surprising either; this is the Internet after all...

Originally Posted by Skane

Sometimes I get the feeling that people just want Kanon to fail for various reasons...

I think it's just the same backlash to hype that you always see. While reality is shades of grey, people on the Internet like to make things as black and white as possible -- I think they consider it fun. If a show's good, it's all of a sudden "the best thing EVAR!!!1" and so the people who don't see the appeal all of a sudden have to make it "the worst thing EVAR!!!1" to compensate. It's far too much to expect people on the Internet to just ignore the things that don't appeal to them; if it's being hyped, some people feel it's their duty to bring "balance". Really, it's all about not feeling alone in your opinions; easiest way to do that is to attack the people holding opinions you don't agree with (or do it by proxy by resorting to theatrics and exaggerations to attack the opinion).

Romantic dramas based on bishoujo games appeal to a small (but sometimes vocal) niche market. The reason why Kanon (first iteration) and Air haven't been licensed, in addition to the high price tag, is because there just isn't a large enough market in the English world for these types of shows. So, it should surprise precisely no one that there'll be a hype backlash -- Kanon will never appeal to the majority of anime fans. Some will feel compelled to check it out to see what all the hype is about, and then feel led to "inform" the fans just how dillusional they are for hyping up such an "awful, boring show" (or whatever adjectives they choose to use).

Anyway, the point is neither excessive hyping nor trolling really convince anyone to like or not like a show. All it does is polarize and bring vocal/argumentative people out of the woodwork. So don't be surprised if you see a lot of Kanon backlash, just as there was a lot of AIR backlash back in the day. The best thing, as always (and certainly in the case of the link above, that was written solely to provoke a reaction), would be to not feed the trolls. But hey, this is the Internet -- a lot of people think this is the fun part.

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by Minoto

Softening his sarcasm takes away from that -- before, he was a more interesting character, a good-hearted guy who was a little insecure about that and covered up for it with with quick, sarcastic wit. In other words, a very believable teenage male. Now, he's coming off as more of a one-dimensional, generic nice-guy character who's less involving and less interesting, at least to me.

I disagree.
The Toei Yuuichi is like what you said - a normal teenager, but the game, and in turn Kyoani Yuuichi, was anything BUT a normal teenager. In Key's work, the male lead usually has a very cynical view of the world. They usually believe that they are the "know all" and behaves very adult-like - they have a limited set of wisedoms to life but is cynical, sarcastic and uncaring to things which they don't believe to be true. OTOH, the female characters of Key work is the otherway around - innocent and child-like, pure with unrealistic dreams but hold on so hard to it. The beauty of this setup is that during the resolution, both parties gains some very important insight to life in general and not just about love - as the male lead re-discovers a little bit of their lost innocences from childhood, while the female characters matures and come to face with realities. I would argue that this setup and the message that comes through is actually deeper than your standard "teenage hormone driven male learning about what love is about" setup of the typical harme anime.

Spoiler for Nayuki and Ayu:

If I had to pick one word to describe his relationship with both of them, it would be "conflicted". He took Nayuki for granted until late in the story, but once her feelings became clear, he seemed genuinely regretful for not having realized, and sorry that his thoughtlessness had hurt her. The kinder, gentler Yuuichi now seems like the kind of guy who should pick up on her feelings much sooner, making the original story actually less believable.

Likewise for Ayu -- once he finally realized just who she was, he was almost crushed that he hadn't understood sooner and been kinder to her while he had the chance; that was part of what drove him to find the angel doll and bring her back with the last wish. Again, his new personality seems like it will lessen the dramatic tension.

Spoiler:

It sounds to me your idea of the "story" and characterisation is based upon the Toei version.

For Nayuki's route, the story is more mature than that. Nayuki and Yuuichi became a couple in the *middle* of the game precieously because Yuuichi noticed Nayuki's feelings early and a little out of love, kindness and sympathy tried to make-up for it by being with her. But there was a problem because with this half-hearted kindness as he was not fully committed to Nayuki either thus the later incidents forces him to undergo yet another stage of realisation for his feelings for Nayuki - this kind of setup is not possible and unrealistic with the Toei Yuuichi because he is a teenager and he acted like you described - a teenager that makes sudden knee-jerked one-off end-all decisions. This all goes AGAINST what the game Yuuichi is suppose to be and what the original creator wanted as well. You have to realise that the in the game the original target audience are people well pass their teens and in their 20s, the whole "teenager innocent love" angle simply can't make the same cynical society-beaten players connect to the lead as they would simply shrug it off as another fairytale romance story.

As for Ayu, the story is even more complex because of Yuuichi's realisation that all the sadness he caused to both Ayu and Nayuki (this is the only path in the game where the two story tightly interwinds as the player discovers the real background) was because of his actions. Preciously because of this awarness he has he was forced in the story to move to a stage where Yuuchi goes through a deeper self-realisation process as Yuuichi weights out the trade-offs in his decision - should he keep his promise to the unknown factors of Ayu and hurt Nayuki, or abandaon Ayu and take someone closer to him, this is also why the Japanese Kanon fanbase is so divided on who the "true" heroine is - the fairytale princess that is Ayu or the real supporter that is Nayuki. Whereas Toei's version was merely the fairy tale happy ending of a teenage romance story where everything just happens to turn out all ok.

While the Toei version may have more immediate impact and being more dramatic, it is not as deep and thought provoking as the game (and what I believe Kyoani is also trying to achieve in their adaptation). Where if Kanon was the teenage romance that the Toei version was, it certainly would not be the genre-changing piece of work which people hold it up to be.

[DanielSong39]

Spoiler:

Sometimes I wonder whether people's opinions would be different if Nayuki was not Yuuichi's blood relative... in light of this fact, Yuuichi's and Nayuki's hesitation seem somewhat justified.

If Nayuki was not related I could easily see her being Akari to Yuuichi's Hiroyuki or Nanami to Yuuichi's Kenji. I could see hints of this in the Toei version, even as her role was diminished... as I began to see her potential as a supporter, and perhaps a partner, to Yuuichi's efforts.

[panzerfan]

It seems that people finally can make the conclusion on student A, B, C...

[orion]

Well, I almost never judge a series based on the first ep unless it truly was pushing the wrong buttons, especially this title. The first ep. is introductory anyway.

Sometime I think that if something is too popular then people will try to take it down, like Bleach on Adult Swim (Cartoon Network).

If they were mad and thought that Haruhi was cut short for Kanon, imagine what's going to happen when Kanon ends and Lucky Star, KyoAni's next project, begins (airs Spring 2007).

[Vexx]

The idea some are claming that Haruhi was "cut short" for Kanon is just ignorant, pardon my English. Haruhi was *planned* for its length and Kanon had been planned and laid out for a long time in advance. Haruhi's blast into popularity clearly caught KyoAni execs by surprise. But I think they've done the right thing -- stick to the schedule for now, take their time and produce another Haruhi season with the material if the interest remains high. (And I'm a massive Haruhi fan)

I'm known for skewering shows I don't think much of but my complaints are usually concerning story structure, character development... the stuff that literary analysis is made of. Most of the negative noise I'm hearing about Kanon is basically "griefer" noise (to use a gaming term). Reminds me of the losers who stand near the theater to make fun of science fiction fans so that they can feel better about their little lives.

I thought episode one was reasonably done, though I'll admit I thought it interesting/odd that they felt the need to introduce so many of the characters right off the bat since they have so many episodes to work with.

[Minoto]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

I disagree.
The Toei Yuuichi is like what you said - a normal teenager, but the game, and in turn Kyoani Yuuichi, was anything BUT a normal teenager. In Key's work, the male lead usually has a very cynical view of the world. They usually believe that they are the "know all" and behaves very adult-like - they have a limited set of wisedoms to life but is cynical, sarcastic and uncaring to things which they don't believe to be true. OTOH, the female characters of Key work is the otherway around - innocent and child-like, pure with unrealistic dreams but hold on so hard to it. The beauty of this setup is that during the resolution, both parties gains some very important insight to life in general and not just about love - as the male lead re-discovers a little bit of their lost innocences from childhood, while the female characters matures and come to face with realities. I would argue that this setup and the message that comes through is actually deeper than your standard "teenage hormone driven male learning about what love is about" setup of the typical harme anime.

Spoiler:

It sounds to me your idea of the "story" and characterisation is based upon the Toei version.

For Nayuki's route, the story is more mature than that. Nayuki and Yuuichi became a couple in the *middle* of the game precieously because Yuuichi noticed Nayuki's feelings early and a little out of love, kindness and sympathy tried to make-up for it by being with her. But there was a problem because with this half-hearted kindness as he was not fully committed to Nayuki either thus the later incidents forces him to undergo yet another stage of realisation for his feelings for Nayuki - this kind of setup is not possible and unrealistic with the Toei Yuuichi because he is a teenager and he acted like you described - a teenager that makes sudden knee-jerked one-off end-all decisions. This all goes AGAINST what the game Yuuichi is suppose to be and what the original creator wanted as well. You have to realise that the in the game the original target audience are people well pass their teens and in their 20s, the whole "teenager innocent love" angle simply can't make the same cynical society-beaten players connect to the lead as they would simply shrug it off as another fairytale romance story.

As for Ayu, the story is even more complex because of Yuuichi's realisation that all the sadness he caused to both Ayu and Nayuki (this is the only path in the game where the two story tightly interwinds as the player discovers the real background) was because of his actions. Preciously because of this awarness he has he was forced in the story to move to a stage where Yuuchi goes through a deeper self-realisation process as Yuuichi weights out the trade-offs in his decision - should he keep his promise to the unknown factors of Ayu and hurt Nayuki, or abandaon Ayu and take someone closer to him, this is also why the Japanese Kanon fanbase is so divided on who the "true" heroine is - the fairytale princess that is Ayu or the real supporter that is Nayuki. Whereas Toei's version was merely the fairy tale happy ending of a teenage romance story where everything just happens to turn out all ok.

While the Toei version may have more immediate impact and being more dramatic, it is not as deep and thought provoking as the game (and what I believe Kyoani is also trying to achieve in their adaptation). Where if Kanon was the teenage romance that the Toei version was, it certainly would not be the genre-changing piece of work which people hold it up to be.

I agree with your characterization of Key male leads -- I just started learning Japanese this spring, so it'll be a couple of years before I'm really able to enjoy Kanon or AIR properly, but from what little I have read in translations / struggled through on my own, both Yuuichi and Yukito were much more cynical characters in their original form than they were in the animations.

I'm just not getting that from KyoAni Yuuichi, though...if they're truly modeling him more after the original Yuuichi from the game, why are so many people perceiving him as kinder / softer / even more toned down, presumably to draw in more of the female audience? I'd expect him to be a little more arrogant, to more obviously look down on the unworthy people around him, and so on. Instead, he seems rather bland, and almost detached from the events around him, while Toei's Yuuichi at least showed some contradictory elements to his character, even in the first episode, and had room to grow and learn. Maybe it's just too early to tell, or maybe I'm just reading him wrong...I don't know.

Spoiler for Not really a spoiler, but since I'm responding to something that was in spoiler tags...:

Yes, I was basing my opinions on Toei's version of the story, since I'm not yet able to play the game. (It's sitting on my shelf, waiting for that day to come, though.) Thanks for the explanation of the original story; I'm definitely looking forward to seeing just how much of the other routes will be worked into the new version.

[Skane]

Originally Posted by Vexx

~ I thought episode one was reasonably done, though I'll admit I thought it interesting/odd that they felt the need to introduce so many of the characters right off the bat since they have so many episodes to work with.

I call it fan-pandering.

A lot of us have watched/played Kanon before, so I guess in order to entertain us a bit, they inserted all the characters in a *wink* *wink* sort of way. To those who are experiencing Kanon for the first time, all the foreshadowing is going to fly over their heads until they REWATCH the series.

Furthermore, this sort of foreshadowing is hardly new. Canvas2 did it too, with characters making cameos in the first two episodes before they got properly introduced. It certainly flew over my head until I rewatched the series, then all the foreshadowing and hints made me go, "Ohhhh."

As a Literature student at heart, I also enjoy analysing the shows I watch, even if some of my random thoughts are wildly out of this world. I absolutely love it when they yank my legs by inserting all these non-intrusive fan-pandering. It gives the show rewatchable value, and rewards those who pay close attention to details, as opposed to those who prefer mindless entertainment.

Not that mindless entertainment is bad, mind you. I myself enjoy mindless entertainment every now and then.

Another example would be the laptop screens in SHnY when they were playing the LAN game. Although not mentioned in the anime, and having no critical bearing on the plot( for the anime version), they faithfully adapted the game information from the novels. Non-novel readers would gain no insight from the statistics shown on the screens and be none the wiser, but novel readers will glow with inner fanboyism when they see it.

Cheers.

[Shin_Battousai]

Sorry if this has been mentioned before but i couldn't find the answer to my question through the search function and the thread's much too big to search manually now. Anyway, what i'd like to ask is: is Kanon going to be broadcast in high definition as well?

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by bayoab

Poster is entirely right. Kanon is all hype and no substance. Heck, it only got 18000 downloads in 24 hours which is pathetic considering the hyping that you see of it on this board. The only redeeming point of the series is hearing Kyuuichi making sarcastic remarks and there aren't even enough of those.

You can't be serious linking download numbers to "substance" ... if that was the case, Naruto and Bleach would be the epitome of that. God forbid. Besides, it could only be due to lacking substance if the numbers dropped in episode 2 - not in episode 1.

No, it's a fact that hyped action almost always outperforms other anime types in downloads, particularly moe. Look at Death Note for example. Also, keep in mind that first episodes of shows quite often take a while to develop. If I remember correctly, even Haruhi needed some time before the word spread and took off. There may be less of this effect this time since the word about Kanon was well-spread before while Haruhi was literally unknown, but as long as the quality holds up, I expect the number of spectators to at least double, maybe more.

In any case, I think the first episode was a very solid piece of work, and it certainly outdid the original. I'm happy with it ^_^

[orion]

And why should we care how many people are downloading this?

I don't need to justify liking a title by how many people are downloading it or its standing in an internet poll.

[radister]

i still think that each over is to there own on how they view anime.
all i need is a show that keeps me intrested.
Thats what kanon did, and thats what i hope the remake will do.

these type of animes aren't for everyone, thats why theres lots of diffrent types.
nor does the Popularity of kanon matter to me. but i know people who only wacth anime that everyone likes and some who will not wacth an anime that is well known.
so it best to just ignore personal reviews and just stick to your own views

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Mentar

You can't be serious linking download numbers to "substance" ... if that was the case, Naruto and Bleach would be the epitome of that. God forbid. Besides, it could only be due to lacking substance if the numbers dropped in episode 2 - not in episode 1.

Actually, I wasn't directly linking the numbers and the show's substance. People have been claiming "OMG, this is going to be most popular show" and "its going to gain mass recognition unlike haruhi which is only cult recognition." My point was that there is nothing to match that hype. The substance is mostly to the hype and indirectly to the show.

No, it's a fact that hyped action almost always outperforms other anime types in downloads, particularly moe. Look at Death Note for example. Also, keep in mind that first episodes of shows quite often take a while to develop.

Actually, most new shows get around 15-20k in 24 hours. So it did completely average. I wasn't comparing it to anything specific. But with the amount of hype in this thread, you would think it would be getting instant 30k.

If I remember correctly, even Haruhi needed some time before the word spread and took off. There may be less of this effect this time since the word about Kanon was well-spread before while Haruhi was literally unknown, but as long as the quality holds up, I expect the number of spectators to at least double, maybe more

Haruhi's first explosion really happened at episode 2's release. The difference is haruhi was basically unknown while Kanon is well known.

In any case, I think the first episode was a very solid piece of work, and it certainly outdid the original. I'm happy with it ^_^

I don't think it would have been possible to do worse than the original. Except maybe the voice actors...

[SpaceDrake]

Artfully dodging the raging flames...

I'm actually rather interested in this, in no small part due to the male protagonist. From what I remember of Kanon 2002, Yuuichi was wishy-washy and didn't develop too much as a character (due to stuffing the story into 13 episodes). If this Yuuichi is like Kyon in that he can look at what's going to become some rather odd proceedings with a slightly jaundiced, sarcastic eye and voice, this should be a fun ride. Really can't make judgments till we're some episodes in, but the start has been fun.

Of course, KyoAni is just better at telling a story, flat out. So many little character insertions that won't be expanded upon till later... so many little foreshadow events... and such an impressive amount of atmoshpere, especially with Ayu. Oh my, I (really) hope that doesn't spoil too much. I almost wish I was going into this blind. I have a feeling this'd be a fun fun way to be introduced to Kanon.

The dialogue so far has been great. Uguu? Uguu. Uguu! I was grinning uncontrollably at that.

If people are going into this expecting War and Peace, you're going to be a bit disappointed. It's a feel-good show. It isn't "kiddy porn", it's just the story of a guy reconnecting with the past he left behind. I'm going to enjoy it for that.