[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Pocuma

I also have a question for jTiKey; What about ShKanontrice is it you have problem with? The whole death-of-a-role/identity thing? I mean… the whole “that person is dead” concept has been around in a lot of other works… The StarWars example about Darth Vader probably being the most famous one. So what is the problem with it?

I think that at the very bottom level, ignoring psychological reasons like "I just don't like Yasutrice" or "I want to feel superior to other readers", there's a fundamental disagreement between the Yasutrice and Rosatrice theories about how red truth should work. Here's my question for jTiKey:

We can probably agree that for Maria, even though she's just playing pretend, Sakutaro's existence holds the same weight and importance to her as another person. Suppose she has a pretend tea party with him, and then records it in her diary as "Today Sakutaro and I had a tea party." Do you think that she, as the author of the diary, has the right to use red truth for that statement, or not?

[jTiKey]

I cannot understand how Rosa is supposed to have been able to fake her whole face being smashed in the first episode

Make up? Face mask? Nanjo was backing up her anyway. There were 5 other people with wounds on their face. Rosa wasn't special, that someone would examine here, but even if, Nanjo could just ask not to touch her.

George-as-an-accomplice

He is the only character that doesn't die until the ritual is over, and the only character that was told to be ready to sacrifice all his relatives.

Guys, this is a mystery novel. The author must hide the connections between the culprit and the known characters.

And wouldn’t the purple truth

So you trust Bern's game, where Battler, who is innocent by the red truth, is the culprit?

Yasu before she became Beatrice/“Clair” to Rosa

But you can do that to Kanon?

The problem is that you put that high priority on a 7th game, that has only a magical perspective, but not on the red truth that has the highest pririty since game 2?

It’s also the thematic issues and the fact that you have to throw out pretty much all of Ep7 and Ep8…

And you throw EP 1-6, where the game is the main core to Beatrice's heart.

And you rather listen to Bern's game, who obviously doesn't know Beatrice's heart, cuz she failed at game 5 and 6, and hates Beato's gameboard with all she is.

What about ShKanontrice is it you have problem with?

It's a shame to be a solution for the best mystery novel so far.

Also, it cannot explane game 3 and 5 no matter how. Game 3 shannon, kannon and beatrice are dead.

Game 5: only the people from the cousing room: Rosa, George, Maria, Jessica and Battler, could've put the letter, and kill everybody else in the room. (Confirmed in red by Ending of game 5)

that person is dead

It is forbidden to have a crime without a corpse.

personality death should never be a crime, or be counted as death. That's agains mystery novel rules. That thing can't be done in the real world. Mystery novels are a game between the detective and the cuprit, who both are human, and no god of that world aka the author.

Beato didn't wanted her game to be a trap. It was solvable from game 1. She made more games just so it would be easier for Battler to understand and find out the truth! It wasn't just a fun game for her to amuse herself or the witches. She wanted to be understood. Thus, you say the games were just fun puzzles with no general sence? The main goal for 6 episodes that Battlers chased for is nothing, because a methaphorical 7th episode of the culprits f*cked up inner world?

But, without love it cannot be seen.

If you rather wanna see Skanon as a solution, no one can force you do otherwise.

But maybe if you would try see Yasu in Rosa, you would see so much connection.

Also, one more point. The detective never needs to know the motive of the culprit. There just must exist one. Just read the EP 5 ending, where Erika forces Natsuhi to confess, or read any mystery novel. The confession is made after the detective SOLVED the mystery.

The testimony is always the thing the culprit must say by himself. So, you don't need the confession (ep 7) to solve the mystery. And if you needed to hear the confession of the culprit to solve the mystery - you failed.

[Pocuma]

So you trust Bern's game, where Battler, who is innocent by the red truth, is the culprit?

I have to trust the purple truth, right? Because the red truth is always the truth regardless of circumstances, right? You can’t deny it. And we are told that the purple truth is basically the same as red truth unless spoken by the culprit (something neither Battler nor Beato argue against it). Therefore there is no reason to claim that the purple truth spoken by non-culprits is any less true than any other red truth. Do you have any proof that the non-culprit-purple truth IS NOT as valid as the regular red truth?

(I'm going to answer the rest as well, but that felt like the most urgent question)

[ErenselTheJester]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

But who am I talking to?..

If Ryu told you to jump out a window, you surely would listen to him, without hesitation

Okay, it is one thing for you to try to find an alternative theory. No one is saying you're wrong for that. But don't insult people or their theories since it is an established fact that alternative theories can exist for Umineko. If you don't like Shkanon, then respectfully say so but don't boil us down to being a bunch of sheep. Alot of us here have tried for a very long time to find alternative theories and explanations for what happens in Umineko and some of us have been successful enough at it that it is, again, an established fact that Shkanon isn't a necessity in making explanations. Ryukishi mentioned that himself and was proud that people were able to do so. He would be as happy as a christmas elf seeing you try this hard to make your own idea for Umineko. However, he has an answer, some of us got it and accepted it as the official explanation while others still haven't. So be proud of yourself but be humble and respectful enough to know that your theory is just as good as any other theory.

[Higurashi-Z]

If it's like that I have some questions too.

1) In Rosatrice theory, Rosa is crazy and believe that if she follow the epitaph Beatrice will revive. Rosa was never portrayed as someone who believe in magic. She slap maria because of her creep talk about magic and ocultism. But the question here is about the manga ep 8. In this arc there is a scene where Rosa is talking with maria and realize that when she was young she was similar to maria but because she "grew up" and abandoned all her habits and believes of when she was a kid she couldn't understand maria and made her suffer. So why Rosa, who is portrayed in ep 8 as someone who abandoned all of her childish's thoughts believe in magic?

2)Now for george motive, in the rosatrice page that you posted is written:

George hated his family, and was ready to kill them for a happy life with Shannon (4 game).

A red from the episode 8 manga "our family was getting along well together". So you need something else beside george hating his family and think about killing them because of shannon.

3)Why is there a scene where shannon use a spray to write a message and make maria think that it is a message from beatrice?

4)Why when Beato is drinking alcohol Battler call her a minor?

5)Why Beato said that she never met her mother and call Natsuhi "mother"?

6)From where come the hate of beatrice for Natsuhi? In the episode 8 manga beato said clearly that a lot of things where done to harass Natsuhi.

7)Explain how genji's definition of furniture differs from shannon and kannon and why the two of them come to have that different vision of this word.

8) In episode 8 manga Battler said:

"That's why Grandfather,shannon-kannon... Beatrice... and people who shoudn't be present can all exist here equally."

Explain this using your Rosatrice theory.

9)You still didn't say anything about this you know...

Spoiler for screenshot:

10)As you appear to have some difficult to understand the use of the red here is a screenshot about the 2 types of red

Spoiler for screenshot:

With this said explain the following red:
- I keep my promises(valid for all the games but rosa broke a lot of promises with maria. How do you explain it?

-Regardless of whether the epitaph is solved or not, Beato has nothing to gain.(isn't this against the rosatrice theory?)

-Beato wanted you to solve it, so she made this game...the riddles of this tale...solvable. ( again, and more clear now. Beato wanted Battler to SOLVE the game but in Rosatrice theory she wants battler to accept the witch. Isn't this against the red?)

-I was born for Father's sake.(said by chick beato on episode 6, refering to battler. Why rosa would do anything for battler's sake?)

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

That's why I assume that their motives aren't substantial to cause a murder. While it is true that they have motives, it is hard to believe they would kill everyone on that basis. It is more believable if, like you said, one person killed someone else and that triggered the event. However, there is no info as to who did what, how, and when. Basically, the actual murders of Rokkenjima Prime are a blank canvas and the events can go any possible way that one can imagine. However, we can assume that there were no murders until the point of the explosion. That clears up the whole thing as a whole and only leaves the explosion as the sole cause of all the deaths. The only question is who caused the explosion and why.

I've considered the possibility as it was one I liked but the problem is that there were no murders until the explosion we would have to explain the following things:
- why Eva went alone in the middle of the night at Kuwadorian or, if she went there previously, decided to spent there the night alone? Because if she knew there was going to be an explosion she would have at least carried with her Hideyoshi and George and if she didn't... it'still weird she went there alone and remained there.
- why Battler also left the main house prior to midnight?
- with who he left? Eva? then how come the two happened to part?
- what is Eva trying to hide with her silence? If she's not the one who caused the explosion and no one was death when she left, she basically shouldn't know what happened so there's nothing she can hide.
- the book of one truth shows some scenes of facts that should have happened (some of which had been after removed but someone in the forum was able to track them back) but if Eva wasn't there then all the book of 1 truth can show is... nothing basically. So, from where those scenes came?

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

Plus, there's also what Battler and Beatrice said to Ange about the family in EP 8 where Ange wondered why the family was so happy in their party and the two said that the family was always that happy. I would assume that this was a hint that the family, despite their problems, loved each other very much and the motives provided by the earlier games are an exaggeration of their more weaker aspects.

I think the problem is that the games present the family as a bunch of people ferociously hating each other while what Battler wanted to say is that likely they had their good and bad moments. So Kinzo might have played with his grandchildren, but might also have yelled at them in a scary way, or beat Jessica up with a wooden sword.

It's like Maria and her mother. Their relation had moments that were horrible and moments that were very good. Maria wanted to pick up only the good moments, rejecting the bad and blaming them on the bad witch, Ange instead wanted to see only the bad ones and wave off the good ones as a delusion.

There's a scene similar in EP 6, when Kanon remembers the good sides of the people living on the island.

Battler with her game likely tried to make Ange remember of the good sides of their family, although he might have purposely abused in showing her only the nice sides in attempt to make her focus on them.
Like with Kinzo's presents. Likely Kinzo personally picked up the present for his grandchildren as long as he had been alive but by 1986, contrary to what Battler showed, he was already dead and couldn't pick up a thing.

Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester

Yasu doesn't necessarily have to make her mystery fiction but she just needs to have a desire to kill them and her motives for doing so can range from a broken heart to a valueless view of life. As long as she feels justified for what she does, it doesn't require her to be "cold- blooded" or any amount of luck since all she has to do is flip the switch and wait until the bombs blow.

Well, I'll argue that turning a switch on and waiting for it to blast away everyone requires a certain cold bloodness. It'll be different if the bomb would go off as soon as she turn on the switch, it could be done in a moment of anger/irritation/desperation/whatever and she would not have the time to think at the consequences of what she does but, as soon as she has the time to think, unless she remains in a highly emotional state and unable to rationalize, well, she coldly set the others up to die.

Of course there's the problem we don't know when the switch was turned on and in which status Yasu was and if she remained as such so it's even possible she didn't have the time to calm down. Still this would require something to happen to her that would upset her greatly and that would push her to act without following a plan but just her instinct.

[GreyZone]

I wonder why no one tried creating "Kyrietrice" or "Natsuhitrice" theories yet... I think those would actually have a LOT more points going for them than "Rosatrice". Meanwhile "Evatrice" was already discussed in Umineko anyway, so it does not seem very appealing.

[Leafsnail]

Did Rosa's existence never strike the rest of you as odd?

Kinzo had grown to hate his children and his wife. During the war, he effectively wanted to kill himself so he could escape them. And he met a great new Italian girl who he came to love.

So are we to believe that roughly a decade afterwards he decided to have another child with his hated wife? Ridiculous, I say.

The truth is that Rosa was one day presented to Kinzo's wife. She understood, of course, that this must be a child from his mistress. It was the ultimate humiliation, and she could not stand it - so she shoved the servant who was carrying the child off the edge of a cliff.

The child survived. Her mother, who shielded her baby with her body as she fell, was not so lucky.

Kinzo was furious. Sadly, it seemed that he blamed the child for causing the death of the love of his life. While Nanjo was able to convince him to still keep the child in his house, he always resented her. Kinzo's wife also resented her due to her being a child forced on her and a constant reminder of a terrible deed she once did. Her siblings had their suspicions about her origins, and in any case didn't want to hang around their crazy father's place any more than necessary.

As such, Rosa grew up terribly neglected and lonely. Her only company were the maids, who also resented her due to her status. She tried to work with them so that she could at least have some friends, but it just didn't work.

In fact, her first real friends was George. He played with her without judging, and as such she formed a deep bond. She did the same with Battler and Jessica when they were born 5 year later. Later, even though she hated herself for it, those feelings began to develop into something more.

However, Kinzo was beginning to lose his mind even more. His love was dead, and his black magic was failing. Suddenly, he began to see Beatrice in Rosa more and more. It eventually culminated in a truly unforgivable act. Years later, Kinzo used the epitaph as a way to hand the headship of the family to Rosa, begging for forgiveness for all he had done.

This left Rosa in a strange position. She had a headship she didn't want, three sets of feelings she could never act on and a child who reminded her of a terrible event. She didn't feel able to tell everyone outright about her feelings, but she wanted to at least feel that someone understood what she had been through, even if they didn't know who she was.

As such, she recruited a maid at the mansion to help. In her story and her mystery night, she would play her part. She changed the timeline of the story slightly, but all the key details remained the same. She also obtained help from Krauss's wife, whom Kinzo had cruelly selected simply due to the coincidence of her birthname.

The cousins could learn about the person who loved them for their kindness (in spite of Battler's careless promise), the headship could be passed on and everyone would learn to sympathise with "Yasu". The one thing that Rosa herself would admit to was responsibility for the death of Beatrice.

At least that was the plan. Unfortunately, Rosa didn't realize that dragging Battler back would cause a terrible secret to be revealed. A terrible secret that would cost everyone on the island their lives.

You see, Core merely told us the story that Rosa wanted us to hear. The truth about her and the culprit will be revealed later, in the Answers arc. Umineko's apparent end is only a pretense.

[Pocuma]

First of all jTiKey, please, mind your way with your wording. People obviously finds it offensive. So tone it down a bit, will you?

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Make up? Face mask? Nanjo was backing up her anyway. There were 5 other people with wounds on their face. Rosa wasn't special, that someone would examine here, but even if, Nanjo could just ask not to touch her.

I actually did consider Nanjo covering up for Rosa as an alternative, as well as some other things…

Spoiler for (For saving space) Regarding the first twilight and Rosatrice::

I have a hard time taking Rosatrice first twilight seriously when it talks about the whole fake-death-drug-issue…
The wiki's explanations says “Shannon was either given fake death drug or asked by George to cooperate with him.”
…I mean… really?
Since I find the whole “fake-death-drug” part of the theory way to ridiculous I really wonder how the heck Rosa managed to trick George about Shannon’s death in this situation… The closest thing I can think of that doesn’t sound completely ridiculous would be some kind of sleeping pills (which I don’t think is to ridiculous to assume might exist in the household considering Natsuhi’s migraines, or might have been brought by Rosa without it being that suspicious.) But that would only keep her out for a limited time though… Question: How long can you sleep as longest with the help of sleeping pills without it being dangerous?
And saying that she would cooperate just because George ask her to… Sorry, but I just can’t see any motivation for Shannon to go along with this kind of plan if she is truly the innocent and kind-hearted maid that she appears to be in the narrative. And please don’t counter with a comment about how she’s expected to act like this under the ShKanontreice theory, there she does have a motive. What motive does non-Yasu-Shannon have to let George kill all those people? It’s not like they can, in theory, stop him from just pulling a Battler and ditch the family if he’s that determinate to marry her.
The only thing I can think of is if George lied and told her something along the lines of; “We’re going to play a mystery game as a welcome back party for Battler-kun” and she’s actually naïve enough to believe that… not to mention that George need to be naïve (or rather stupid) enough to believe that she would not notice that all the others in the shed was dead… although if you mix it with the sleeping pill-theory I guess she might have been knocked out long enough for them to have finished… then I guess I could possibly work... maybe.

And regarding Rosas face: at least in the manga, she has the whole upper half of her head mangled from what I can see… so it’s not just a simple case of make-up here. We’re talking something that would be possibly Hollywood-level of skills. I find it dubious that she would be able to fake being dead with her head smashed white open while in plain sight of everyone. At least Shannon his hidden enough so that only those within the shed can “se her”. But I guess that if you mix some good makeup-skills/a really good make-up mask and the most likely bad light in the shed together with the panic and psychological strain of seeing six dead people out of the blue, then yes, I guess it’s possible for them to assume that Rosa is as dead as the others... as long as they don’t look too closely. I’m even going to throw you a bone and say that, yes, they didn’t have any reason to believe that Rosa was not as dead as the others if it appeared like her face was smashed in a similar way as theirs. And as you said, Nanjo is an accomplice according to the theory, so he could have been instructed to make sure that no one got close enough to the body to tell the truth. It would rely a lot on luck, but Will did refer to the first twilight as risky… so, sure, it works. But you cannot say that it makes any MORE sense “official answer”.

Originally Posted by jTiKey

He is the only character that doesn't die until the ritual is over, and the only character that was told to be ready to sacrifice all his relatives.

The fact that George survives until late in the games does make him suspicious, that much is true. But the whole he’d-sacrifice-his-whole-family bit always annoys me… people take that part of the scene and then completely ignores the fact that his actions afterwards goes completely against what he actually said. He ATTACKS the one that asked him to make the choice, and says something that more or less amounts to “Oh? You seriously thought I would just let you trick/force me into killing my family? Nah, I’m gonna kick your ass and save them instead.” George says he’d kill for Shannon’s sake… but that was in a situation where Shannon was clearly a hostage. There’s no reason for George to kill anyone (save possibly Battler) unless it's self-defence or Shannon is in direct danger. So what is his motive? Murder all his relatives in order to marry Shannon? That would make his supposed actions counterproductive to his goal. He can’t believe Shannon would be happy about him killing (or allowing someone else to kill) the closest thing she has ever had to a family. And why not just pulling a Battler and ditch the family if they are that much of a problem? Also; George is shown to be a person who wants to make his own future with his own abilities… so money shouldn’t be a motive.

Originally Posted by jTiKey

But you can do that to Kanon?

*about connecting Yasu to other characters* That’s a trick question, but Kanon’s “connection” to Yasu would be that he’s one of his/her alternative identeties/roles.

Originally Posted by jTiKey

The problem is that you put that high priority on a 7th game, that has only a magical perspective, but not on the red truth that has the highest pririty since game 2?

Firstly: Yes the red is important, but it's not good to get to stuck on it. Secondly: It’s not really that I priorities ep7 "that much"… BUT you can’t ignore whole episodes just because it’s suits you. I am not asking for an detailed in-depth explanation about everything single thing connecting Rosa to Yasu. Just a simple explanation or example would do. Seriously… Leafsnail gave an example of a possible explanation, but you have not done that. I am not asking out of spite. I am genuinely curious if there was a proper answer within this theory for it.

Originally Posted by jTiKey

And you throw EP 1-6, where the game is the main core to Beatrice's heart.

I did not say that the first episodes are unimportant. But if an "answer" completely makes whole episodes completely unnecessary… Why did those episodes even exist to begin with?

Originally Posted by jTiKey

And you rather listen to Bern's game,

Wait what? I have only brought up the purple truth from her game because it’s stated to be the same as the red truth as long as it’s not spoken by the culprit… how does that translate to “I only listen to Bern”? Or are you referring to the 7th game as a whole?

Originally Posted by jTiKey

who obviously doesn't know Beatrice's heart, cuz she failed at game 5 and 6, and hates Beato's gameboard with all she is.

But she still seems to know what actually happened by the time of the 7th game… So Bern apparently figured it out, she just don’t care. But even so she still cannot actually lie with red truth. And purple truth is still the same as the red truth unless it’s spoken by the culprit. And she also wanted to expose all of Yasu to the world. So why would ep7 be all falsehood if that was the case?

Originally Posted by jTiKey

It's a shame to be a solution for the best mystery novel so far.

Umm …. Sorry, but doesn’t that just translate to; “You just don’t like it”?

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Also, it cannot explane game 3 and 5 no matter how. Game 3 shannon, kannon and beatrice are dead.

It’s possible to argue that the identity of Shannon-the-servant as well as the identity of Kanon-the-servant was discarded, leaving only Yasu/Sayo/Yoshia/Lion. It all depends on how you define dead. Honest question: Is the concept “dead” ever defined? Is it ever stated that dead means physically dead?

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Game 5: only the people from the cousing room: Rosa, George, Maria, Jessica and Battler, could've put the letter, and kill everybody else in the room. (Confirmed in red by Ending of game 5)

Except they could not even have entered the main building to place the letter… And there’s also the possibility that there was no letter at all. That’s also valid, isn’t it?
The fact that the corpses was not moved after their death would indicate that they had to move in-between when they where found and when Natsuhi stormed in. So they cannot actually have been dead when they where “discovered”. Meaning that pretty much anyone could have killed them later on.

Originally Posted by jTiKey

It is forbidden to have a crime without a corpse.

I know the above one was used by Will regarding Bern’s game, but I still wonder if the Van Dines are even supposed to apply to Umineko as a whole… I mean, wasn’t it some of the Van Dines that explicitly went against Umineko’s story anyway? (I need too look them up again. ) Only two Van Dine was used right? The one above and the one about servants not being allowed to be the culprit. BUT latter, regarding the servant not being the culprit, are used regarding an unrelated case/game and as a way of showing the reader what kind of character Will is.
And besides, there are plenty of bodies beside the supposed non-existent Kanon or Shannon corpse. There’s always other corpses, so a “crime” has occurred anyway regardless of if ShKanon left a body or not.

Originally Posted by jTiKey

personality death should never be a crime, or be counted as death. That's agains mystery novel rules.

What rules? Is there any rule against identity-death?

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Beato didn't wanted her game to be a trap. It was solvable from game 1. She made more games just so it would be easier for Battler to understand and find out the truth! It wasn't just a fun game for her to amuse herself or the witches. She wanted to be understood. Thus, you say the games were just fun puzzles with no general sence? The main goal for 6 episodes that Battlers chased for is nothing, because a methaphorical 7th episode of the culprits f*cked up inner world?

You really need to stop jumping to conclusions. When did I say anything even close to that “the games were just fun puzzles with no general sence”(I assume the last word is a misspelled sense ).
Looking at it from an in-universe perspective, yes, it’s about a person who wanted to be accepted and understood. But keep in mind that when it comes down to it, Umineko IS just a story. A well written and excellent story, but still a fictional story none the less. So please, take a deep breath. Calm down. And stop being so rude.
But yes, I do enjoy making theories. I think its fun to see if it’s possible to make a theory for each of the character. I admit that. But don’t say that I don’t care for the actual massage of the story. Because I get that it’s a really deep and tragic story. But when it boils down to it, it is not about actual people. And is it really anything wrong with enjoying a fictional-story for what it is?

Originally Posted by jTiKey

But, without love it cannot be seen.

I must have lots of love then, because I see a lot of possibilities. But it’s the details I have some trouble gasping when I cannot find the (supposed) logic behind it. Rosatrice claims to be so much more logical than ShKanontrice, but I have yet to find a Rosatrice believer who can give me a satisfying "logical" anwer regading it.

Originally Posted by jTiKey

But maybe if you would try see Yasu in Rosa, you would see so much connection.

I am trying to look at it from another perspective. But I fail to grasp the supposed logic. Which is the very reason I am asking someone who actually support the theory. But I have yet to meet a supposed Rosatrice fan that gives me a straight answer instead of just walking around the questions or respond with another question or an insult to the “official theory”. And that is getting frustrating.

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Also, one more point. The detective never needs to know the motive of the culprit. There just must exist one. Just read the EP 5 ending, where Erika forces Natsuhi to confess, or read any mystery novel. The confession is made after the detective SOLVED the mystery.

(Do you have any idea how much I just wanted to answer this with a sarcastic “Ah, yes… because Erika’s methods is definitely shown to be the way we’re supposed to think.”? )
But seriously, even if the motive must not be spelled out, there still needs to be some foreshadowing. And in all seriousness; when does Rosa ever hint that she have a wish to resurrect Beatrice II? Or any interest in being understood by Battler? That’s part of her supposed motive, right? Where’s the foreshadowing for that?

Originally Posted by jTiKey

The testimony is always the thing the culprit must say by himself.

Isn’t that what ep7 is supposed to be?

Originally Posted by jTiKey

So, you don't need the confession (ep 7) to solve the mystery. And if you needed to hear the confession of the culprit to solve the mystery - you failed.

Tips: Now you’re being very rude again. I did have theories before I read ep7, but they where only that. THEORIES.
ShKanontrice was used as an answer long before ep7, there where supporters around as early as the second episode. So you didn't "need" a confession to figure it out. Also, if the mystery actually ended at ep6, then isn’t ep7’s “confessions” just a confirmation of sorts regarding if peoples theories was correct/incorrect (depending on the theory)? A mystery is supposed to give some kind of answer in the end and leaving a mystery without that... isn’t that more of a failure?
-------------------------------------------------
Edit: Shi--!! This got way longer than I expected. Sorry everyone! I'll try to keep it shorter in the future!
(Edit 2: I edited and tried to cut down some my dialogue slightly)

[rogerpepitone]

To Rosatrice supporters:
1) What was Battler's sin? and 2) How did Rosa find out about it?

By the way, what are the hypotheses about rules X, Y, and Z?
My guesses are probably 3 of (in no particular order):
1) Kinzo is dead before anything starts.
2) Shannon == Kanon == Beatrice
3) There is a bomb that kills everyone at midnight.
4) Battler survives at least to the ninth twilight. (Episode 5 or 6 strongly implies this is a rule.)
5) distinctions between the private face and the public face

The last is a very common theme in Umineko: "Jessie" at the school festival (she mentions it directly to Kanon in Episode 2), Hideyoshi faking an accent, Eva had been a nicer person off the island.

[Leafsnail]

Battler promised to return to Rosa on a white horse, of course. His more serious sin that doomed everyone was abandoning Kyrie, but Rosa didn't know about that.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

I love these posts, please dont stop.

[Pocuma]

And Leafsnail is the hero of the day with his/her(?)wonderful comments!

Edit:
How old is Rosa compared to other characters by the way? I mean, how much younger than Rudolf (who's the second youngest of the siblings) and how much older than George (who's the oldest among the cousins)? Is it ever said anywhere?

[Leafsnail]

I actually misremembered the ages, Rudolf is a lot closer in age to Rosa than I remembered (they're 40 and 35 respectively). I'll modify my theory to state that Rudolf was Castiglioni's first child, and Rosa was her second (and the straw that broke the camel's back as far as Natsuhi-I was concerned).

I also got the age gap between George and Rosa wrong, it's 12 years. I'll say that Rosa's emotional development was badly stunted due to her neglected upbringing (you can see this in the series - in episode one she questions whether she's even a grown-up) so she was still able to relate to people much younger than her.

Also I didn't really think about it much but this does create a neat motive for a Rosa/George culprit team.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

It's a shame to be a solution for the best mystery novel so far.

I wouldn't actually call it "the best mystery novel so far"...it is quite a competent mystery in the way it uses hints and misdirections, but it doesn't really stand out and among other examples I would rather call it okay if it wasn't for the character development and general commentary on mystery writing in general.

Also, it cannot explane game 3 and 5 no matter how. Game 3 shannon, kannon and beatrice are dead.

I have given you an explanation to EP3 which you chose to ignore and EP5 is no hard game at all.

But maybe if you would try see Yasu in Rosa, you would see so much connection.

The problem I have with Rosa=Yasu is, that it would force us to ignore almost everything regarding Rosa's character development during the series.

• Rosa being in middle school when she met Beatrice in 1967 (which would make her between 11 and 13) would make her 24-27 when Battler (12 at that time) left and 30-33 during the actual games.
• In case the above is ignored and Rosa simply is Yasu, she'd have been born sometimes around 1967, making her 19-20 during the actual games, which would require her to give birth to Maria at 10-11.
• The story of Rosa's husband leaving her with a load of bills and desperately struggling to pay them off for him to come back would be nothing but distraction.
• The story of Rosa destroying Sakutarou because Maria pining over Beatrice and magic was disgusting her would be nothing but distraction.
• Rosa's inferiority complex towards her siblings would make not sense if she was actually the family head already.
• The depiction of her fleeing the island with Maria in EP2 would be nothing but distraction.
• The depiction of her being attacked and killed by Eva Beatrice and Beatrice in EP3 would be nothing but distraction.
• Maria's diary would contain a lot of lies.
• The scene where Maria dreams about teaming up with Beato and killing Rosa again and again would serve no function.

What exactly makes the theory superior to Shkannon, when it basically forces us to ignore all of the development that was given for a character? This is not something that we can file as a red herring, since all her dates and information is actually confirmed by other characters (Beatrice, Eva, Rudolph, Ronove, Kawabata, Maria).

personality death should never be a crime, or be counted as death. That's agains mystery novel rules. That thing can't be done in the real world. Mystery novels are a game between the detective and the cuprit, who both are human, and no god of that world aka the author.

It is often enough counted as death without much more than a little hint in the different direction. Take And Then There Were None as the primary example of inspiration towards Umineko:

Spoiler for solution:

The judge was for all we know dead, if it wasn't for the hint towards the insufficient lightning and the "Judas mark" on his head.
The moment the judge died it could be considered as U.N.Owen doing the killings. Beatrice and Yasu even mentioned the function of U.N.Owen as "the witch" of that story.

It is not "personality death" it is "identity death" and that is two different things. Nowhere in mystery rules was it ever defined that the culprit may not be allowed to continue acting in another person's guise. If you are referring to Knox's 10th, "It is forbidden for one character to disguise as another without ample clues," (from the original: Twin brothers, and doubles generally, must not appear unless we have been duly prepared for them) the important part are the "ample clues."
Even one of the central classical mysteries of contemporary Japanese detective fiction, The Zodiac Murder Case, which is also mentioned by Erika and Battler in EP6, uses it as a device:

Spoiler for Tokyo Zodiac Murder Case Solution:

The culprit was one of the family head's daughters, who hid her existence by distributing her sisters body-parts in a way that created the illusion of an additional body, while the missing body parts were allegedly used in the creation of an artificial human in an arcane ritual. All the while she fled to another city and continued her life under a fake name.

And you're idea of a mystery novel is very antiquated and not in any way adapted to standards of mystery writing when Umineko began. Ryukishi himself used the term "Anti-Mystery" and "Anti-Fantasy" a lot of times, which are individual sub-genres.
An anti-mystery actually deconstructs the idea of a classical mystery by using the framework of a classical mystery. Famous examples in the West are few and in between, but in Japan there are quite a few.

[Pocuma]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

I'll modify my theory to state that Rudolf was Castiglioni's first child

Rudolf was already born when Kinzo went to war according to the ep7 manga, but otherwhise it's lovely~ x3

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

I also got the age gap between George and Rosa wrong, it's 12 years.

Oh? So the age difference between Rosa and George is the same as the one between Battler and Ange then?

[Leafsnail]

I'm basing my ages on the Wikia, I'm not sure where it gets them from. Rosa was definitely born after the war though, so I think the theory can work.

Originally Posted by haguruma

[*]Rosa being in middle school when she met Beatrice in 1967 (which would make her between 11 and 13) would make her 24-27 when Battler (12 at that time) left and 30-33 during the actual games.

So what? Umineko has done time-displacement tricks before. For instance, the scene at the start of Legend is probably real, but it clearly didn't happen when we think it did, because Kinzo was already dead at that point.

Note that he states Rosa bore the child of a nobody. This is his own terrible guilt speaking.

Originally Posted by haguruma

[*]In case the above is ignored and Rosa simply is Yasu, she'd have been born sometimes around 1967, making her 19-20 during the actual games, which would require her to give birth to Maria at 10-11.

As stated, the datestamps on Yasu's story could simply be inaccurate, in the same way as other events in the story can be presented at the wrong timeframe.

Originally Posted by haguruma

[*]The story of Rosa's husband leaving her with a load of bills and desperately struggling to pay them off for him to come back would be nothing but distraction.

Kinzo probably got her a husband and her own home in order to try and create a cover story. However, Rosa was far too emotionally stilted to be a decent wife, and the man ended up fleeing.

Originally Posted by haguruma

[*]The story of Rosa destroying Sakutarou because Maria pining over Beatrice and magic was disgusting her would be nothing but distraction.

Kumasawa could easily have fed Maria those stories. Considering Rosa's history, she'd probably find it in horrible taste and get furious. However, later she adopted the Beatrice persona herself, partly to help her get closer to Maria again.

Originally Posted by haguruma

[*]Rosa's inferiority complex towards her siblings would make not sense if she was actually the family head already.

If she were raised as a bastard child and ignored by her parents then her inferiority complex makes perfect sense.

Originally Posted by haguruma

[*]The depiction of her fleeing the island with Maria in EP2 would be nothing but distraction.

Would it? Maybe part of the point of her game was to try and get closer to Maria.

Originally Posted by haguruma

[*]The depiction of her being attacked and killed by Eva Beatrice and Beatrice in EP3 would be nothing but distraction.

Episode 3 is written by Tohya after the event. Eva actually is the culprit in episode 3, she kills Rosa and takes over because Tohya suspects that might be what happened.

Originally Posted by haguruma

[*]Maria's diary would contain a lot of lies.

Like what?

Originally Posted by haguruma

[*]The scene where Maria dreams about teaming up with Beato and killing Rosa again and again would serve no function.

Don't you remember how Maria seems to divide Rosa up into "good mama" and "bad mama"? Beatrice and Rosa.

[jTiKey]

Rosa was never portrayed as someone who believe in magic.

Why can't you just read my posts properly?

Guys, this is a mystery novel. The author must hide the connections between the culprit and the known characters.

A red from the episode 8 manga "our family was getting along well together".

1) Stop thowing me "red truth" that doesn't exist for english readers.
2) The english manga does for some reason have issues translating the red truth.

Or in other words. Give me novel screens or don't give me anything.

4)Why when Beato is drinking alcohol Battler call her a minor?

I don't follow you. If you have issues with Rosatrice, show me the red truth you have conflicts with. Other stuff is subjective. If you can make an personality kill without a body, why won't I just improvise something? Motive and the whydunnit is not what the detective must find out (as i said before). He must PROVE who is the culprit. You can make up a motive for everyone (like Erika did for Natsuji)

- I keep my promises(

I need the context here. May just relate to Meta Beatrice.

Regardless of whether the epitaph is solved or not, Beato has nothing to gain

What did Rosa get from somebody solving the epitaph? She gives the heaship and gold away, stops the ritual.
What did Rosa get from nobody solving the epitaph? She keeps what was her, and proceed the ritual she planned to do.

Where is the gain here?

I was born for Father's sake.

You don't see the difference between Meta Beatrice and the human culprit, who was dressed as Beatrice?
Chick Beato was born BECAUSE Meta Battler wanted so. How does meta stuff relate to a real humanbeing?

Question: How long can you sleep as longest with the help of sleeping pills without it being dangerous?

I believe Shannon and Kanon knew about Rosa. That would make Kanon's "suicide" in game 1 more reasonable. As we see they both know about the "roulett", the ritual and stuff. I assume, Shannon knew what is going on.

But even if not, they could've just knock here out.

They could just use sleeping pills, if not, there is Tetrodotoxin:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=682797
Rosa planned to kill her anyway, and I doubt, that George would know the time the pills\drug would work.

There’s no reason for George to kill anyone (save possibly Battler) unless it's self-defence or Shannon is in direct danger.

What about EP6 where he talks about all the dissapointment and hate for Battler and his family? A motive isn't the prove for a crime. It is just nessasery. And he killes Eva-Beatrice? Jessica did kill a non-blood relative... But George did kill he's mother for being with Shannon?

Anyway. The motive is the culprit's problem.We are not George. Maybe on his place you wouldn't do this, but he might done it. People may have the same situations, but act differently.

And don't forget, the less connection there is between the culprit and the character we know, the best for the author. Big hints would just spoil who is who.

“Yasu” had become Shanon

Isn't Yasu male? that's why I said Kanon.
You can't just blame a new character that was introdused in EP 7 for everything that was done before O_O
You need to integrate "Yasu"'s confession to Shannon or Kanon. Yasu can't be the culprit, just like Beatrice. They don't exist as the 17 humans of EP1. From a mystery perpective, that would be absurd: "Kanon and Shannon did kill in EP1-4, but here is Yasu, a brand new person, who will tell her motive that somebody else did". O_o

Is the concept “dead” ever defined?

In mystery novels - yes. In fantasy - no.
Show be just one Sherlock Holms or other classic mystery novel story, where "dead" was something else then a corpse.

That’s also valid, isn’t it?

They could, if the culprit would set the time back. So the clock ring they here wasn't at 12:00, but after. It was made to make a "mystic 12 o clock letter thingy"
EP5 ending, Lamda or somebody else disproves the alibies of all in the cousin's room. So only Rosa, George, Rosa and Maria don't have an alibi.

BUT you can’t ignore a whole episode just because it’s suits you.

Nobody does ignore that. All those connection can be made, but they are all subjective. I can't prove it to you, I can just make up something that would make sence for me. But even then, you may just disagree. It's like when your person did a crime, and tells you about it, so you won't get it, that it was him\her. You can't take everything literary.
Rosatrice does believe that Rosa solved the epitaph and got the gold and heaship. And that is thank to EP7.

Why would they exist if they had no meaning at all?

The theory doesn't fit to the red truth of them. There is no single hit about two different persons having one body. And even if it was, there is no such thing in the real world.

Or are you referring to the 7th game as a whole?

Yup, 7th game.

Also, Purple truth is just Bern's tool for her game, that has nothing to do, with the Beatos game. It just shares the same characters. It has to many contradictions with Beatos games. It could never be true. Purple truth doesn't exist ouside Berns game. It's like I would make a green truth, that has the same ability as red, but I could use it on this forum.

clearly applied to an unrelated case/game

Isn't red truth something that Beato created for her games? If that wouldn't have any affection to Beato's games, why would it be red?

A. FICTIONAL. STORY.

It's my favorite mystery novel <3

but I have yet to see any Rosatrice believer who actually lives up to that

What do you mean by that?

You havn't actually answer most of the questions people asked at all…

It's funny, because I feel like you all never answer them, just try to dance arount it. And I didn't answer like 2-3 times at the same question, but people still ask the same.

And I don't see, where I am rude here. I came here seeking for answers, but all just started fighting, reportion for flaming and stuff. I actually had many conversations with russian shkanon believers, and I was one, before I found KNM's videos. And they were rude like the guys here, being mean and stuff for no reason, were trolling, when I honesly asked for questions.

; when does Rosa ever hint that she have a wish to resurrect Beatrice II? Or any interest in being understood by Battler? That’s part of her supposed motive, right?

Beatrice did. If Ryu'd do that, it would be no mystery anymore. Obvious connection's are death for mystery novels.
Everywhere Beato was connected to the real culprit, you may just replace "Rosa". Not Beatrice played with Maria and tough her magic but Rosa did.

Tips: Now you’re being very rude again.

How is this rude? That is the rule of mystery novels. If you needed to read the testimony before you were sure about the culprit, you surely wasn't SURE enough.
The sad thing is, that Skanon is NOTHING without EP7. All the "confirmations" are there, but there are non in the games. You need proofs before the confession.

Also, Ryu did tell, that he didn't wanted a copy\paste answer (though you may interpret anyhow). And Tohya Hachijo didn't show the truth to the readers. I assume, Ryu did sit silent about the real culprit all the time. And he won't tell it or will simply like about it. He don't want to loose 999 of 1000 readers.

I really had fun replying you. You may be the only polite user i met here. Thank you for your answer.

[jTiKey]

1) What was Battler's sin?

He forgot about the promise to Shannon

2) How did Rosa find out about it?

how did Beatrice find out?

2) Shannon == Kanon == Beatrice

I wan't that screenshoot ^_^

4) Battler survives at least to the ninth twilight. (Episode 5 or 6 strongly implies this is a rule.

Just like George

5) distinctions between the private face and the public face

wat?

The last is a very common theme in Umineko: "Jessie" at the school festival (she mentions it directly to Kanon in Episode 2),

My friend's don't call me by my full name too. Where is the problem?

Hideyoshi faking an accent, Eva had been a nicer person off the island.

Wat?

Battler promised to return to Rosa on a white horse, of course.

You surely don't know that

The sin I am now demanding that you remember is not between Ushiromiya Battler and Beatrice.

How old is Rosa compared to other characters

wiki says 35.

I have given you an explanation to EP3

Your explanation could answer the whodunnit and howdunnit You couldn't name the human's name who killed Nanjo. I asked for any name of the 17 characters, that wasn't dead. You couldn't give me an answer.

The story of Rosa destroying Sakutarou because Maria pining over Beatrice and magic was disgusting her would be nothing but distraction.

Is there ANY other good explanation, why Beatrice didn't revived Sakutaro, but ANGE did? If Rosa was Beato, and Sakutaro was trouble for Rosa, that is a good reason for Beato not to want to revive Sakutaro.

Rosa's inferiority complex towards her siblings

Why Yasu didn't tell all of them about here being the family head?

be nothing but distraction.

Yup. Hidding the connections between them.

Eva Beatrice and Beatrice in EP3 would be nothing but distraction.

She was killed by George.

Maria's diary would contain a lot of lies.

Why that?

killing Rosa again and again would serve no function.

What about killing the evil witch Rosa?
Or in reality destroying Rosa's stuff, so Maria would calm her anger from destroying Sakutaro?

superior to Shkannon,

No walking personalities bodies, what kill bodies? No red truth contradicitions? Knox and Vine?

judge died

He faked his death the first time. He died the second time. Where are the "personality deaths"?

allowed to continue acting in another person's guise

That is like "there is no hint that the cuplrit can't walk though walls!" and it doesn't contradict anything! This way you can solve all closed room mysteries!
You are talking about changing personalities like an ordinary thing, but IT DOESN"T EXIST in our would. And Personalities don't kill bodies. Bodies do kill bodies. And name =\= personality. You can change your name how many times you want, it won't change you personality!

Leafsnail, good luck continuing the troll reputation of the Shkannon community. And who said I was rude?

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

I wonder why no one tried creating "Kyrietrice" or "Natsuhitrice" theories yet... I think those would actually have a LOT more points going for them than "Rosatrice". Meanwhile "Evatrice" was already discussed in Umineko anyway, so it does not seem very appealing.

I want a Genjitrice! Why no one consider Genji's potential as murderer? He knows all the secrets, he has the master key, the servants obey him, he can convert gold in money, he tricked even Kinzo more than once, he was a schemer that silently scammed others, he can get Nanjo to be his accomplice, he knew Beato 2 and disapprobed what Kinzo did to her, he knows the story behind her death and behind the baby's death/disappearance, he might have picked up a random orphan and manipulated her into believing she's Kinzo's genderswitched child, he can throw knives really well, I bet he knows also where Kinzo keeps his guns and how to use them... come on, he's perfect!

Deep down he can feel hate for Kinzo who turned him into a servant when he was the rich son of a Taiwanese family, or because Kinzo didn't manage to save his family too, for how Kinzo betrayes his life than also had an incestuous relation with his own daughter whom he kept segregated and manipulated into believing she was someone else, how he made her pregnant and handed the baby to Natsuhi, how Kumasawa and Nanjo did nothing to stop him, how Rosa caused Beatrice's death, how Natsuhi caused the baby's death, how Krauss is a fail that invest money in the stupidest business ever, how Rudolf goes after every female, made pregnant 2 and the disgusting fact he switched the babies, how Eva is greedy and ambitious despite being female... and so on.

Oh, calm impassible Genji can be filled with hate...

LOL, now I really want a Genjitrice theory in which he wants to destroy the family to avenge Beato and Sayo gets roped in because she's being manipulated by him into believing this will persuade Battler into paying her attention...