Shakugan no Shana II - Episode 16 Discussion / Poll

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by MidoriHiME

I absolutely ADORE the new animation for the opening, but the tune itself is...I don't know. I don't like it, really. I do like the ending, however - it sounds like a mix of KOTOKO's Ketsudan no Entrance and Mami Kawada's Triangle.

I completely agree.

I feel bad for Yoshida, and Pheles has reinforced herself as an awful person when it comes to how she treats anyone other than Johan.

While I think that it's becoming increasingly clear that Yoshida has no chance of "not losing" to Shana, Pheles' treatment of her was incredibly cruel and unnecessary.

Margery can recieve alerts from her "henchmen" with out having to kill them - why can't Pheles set up a similiar system?

I suspect that there's more to the Houga than what Pheles is letting on, as well (not that I know for certain - I haven't read the Shana novels, so this is pure speculation on my part).

All in all, I thought it was a solid episode. Slow, but that's to be expected after how action-packed two of the previous three episodes were.

[cnnydz]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Margery can recieve alerts from her "henchmen" with out having to kill them - why can't Pheles set up a similiar system?

the hougu is not used to communicate, it uses the POE of the user to summon pheles directly into the battlefield

[Ashlotte]

Originally Posted by KholdStare

It's Kazumi, and I'm not sure why people hate her. Of course she had such a better role in season one and in season two they made her look like repetitive stalker, but she needs to be there to further fuel the romance portion of the plot...or something. Plus, she's cute, and I don't want her to die.

And yes for the record I support Yuji's relationship with Shana.

Actually she's there to do the complete opposite...Bog down the "Romance" in the series and create a tired Love triangle that got old long ago last season. If anything it feels like the relationships have managed to go backwards this season (With the exception of ogixtanaka which I'm grateful for).

Thats one reason why I'm hopeful the action steps up a notch because I've pretty much given up on the "romance" aspects of the story.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by cnnydz

the hougu is not used to communicate, it uses the POE of the user to summon pheles directly into the battlefield

Oh, so it's a little bit like an instant teleportation device. I can see the usefulness of that, yeah.

I took the subtitle explanation to mean that it simply alerts Pheles to the current situation - I must have missed where it specified that it would bring her directly into the battlefield.

[jin07]

I don't have a good memory of the first season so maybe someone can help me with this. The reason why I don't like Yoshida is that she has done nothing except whine. Let's see in about 44 (?) episodes how has Yoshida changed? All I remember her doing was whining about Yuuji, finding out he was mystes, whining about Yuuji, then she started this "I'm not going to lose to you Shana" thing, and now she's whining about being closer to Yuuji. She hasn't changed whatsoever while almost every other character has changed or we learned more about them. With Yoshida we still don't know why she even likes Yuuji or anything else about her. I thought at the end of the first season something was going to happen to her and she'd end up with Yuuji's friend. Well that didn't pan out. It literally feels like every time she's on screen she's whining about Yuuji, saying "I'm not going to lose to you Shana," or bemoaning how she isn't close to Yuuji. So instead of her trying to become stronger/useful, get closer to Yuuji, or confess to him, she has done NOTHING but whine. She is the shallowest character main character on Shana. I either want some development or she can use the Hougu and let the show move on.

[KholdStare]

Originally Posted by Kimichi

Actually she's there to do the complete opposite...Bog down the "Romance" in the series and create a tired Love triangle that got old long ago last season. If anything it feels like the relationships have managed to go backwards this season (With the exception of ogixtanaka which I'm grateful for).

Thats one reason why I'm hopeful the action steps up a notch because I've pretty much given up on the "romance" aspects of the story.

That's not what I mean though. You said exactly what I meant to say...to bog down the Yuji x Shana relationship and create more drama in the romance portion. She's there to drag on the romance because at the end of season one, the relationship was established, so it would be difficult to keep the romance going second season. That's why Kazumi is there.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by jin07

I don't have a good memory of the first season so maybe someone can help me with this. The reason why I don't like Yoshida is that she has done nothing except whine. Let's see in about 44 (?) episodes how has Yoshida changed? All I remember her doing was whining about Yuuji, finding out he was mystes, whining about Yuuji, then she started this "I'm not going to lose to you Shana" thing, and now she's whining about being closer to Yuuji. She hasn't changed whatsoever while almost every other character has changed or we learned more about them. With Yoshida we still don't know why she even likes Yuuji or anything else about her. I thought at the end of the first season something was going to happen to her and she'd end up with Yuuji's friend. Well that didn't pan out. It literally feels like every time she's on screen she's whining about Yuuji, saying "I'm not going to lose to you Shana," or bemoaning how she isn't close to Yuuji. So instead of her trying to become stronger/useful, get closer to Yuuji, or confess to him, she has done NOTHING but whine. She is the shallowest character main character on Shana. I either want some development or she can use the Hougu and let the show move on.

Well, in fairness to Yoshida, she already did confess her love to Yuji. Around the mid-point of Season 1, IIRC.

Really, Yuji himself is partly to blame here for sending a lot of mixed messages to, well, everybody.

He accepts all of Yoshida's gifts happily, he'll hang out with her if she asks him to and he has free time, and he'll be nice to her... but he won't lay down in clear terms his intentions towards her. He's not saying "Sorry, Yoshida, but Shana is the one for me", or "Ok, Yoshida, I'll commit to you, and I love you too".

He's, well, kind of taking advantage of the situation. It was only a few episodes ago that he was getting three lunches a day from three characters (Shana, Yoshida, and Hecate's 'clone' of sorts), and eating some from each.

He has to know by now that Shana and Yoshida both want him as her boyfriend, but he simply won't choose between them. Not explicitly, anyway.

[Bonta Kun]

Originally Posted by KholdStare

That's not what I mean though. You said exactly what I meant to say...to bog down the Yuji x Shana relationship and create more drama in the romance portion. She's there to drag on the romance because at the end of season one, the relationship was established, so it would be difficult to keep the romance going second season. That's why Kazumi is there.

yep cause thats the world of anime and manga......they love to draggggggg this crap along for miles on end that draws a line from here to the next galaxy and back

wouldn't be called a anime if it didn't have something to drag out or something ya dislike to a degree, even if just a little.

thing is I actually enjoyed Yoshida's character in the 1st season but now at this point in the 2nd she is just rather annoying

[lua thien]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

He's, well, kind of taking advantage of the situation. It was only a few episodes ago that he was getting three lunches a day from three characters (Shana, Yoshida, and Hecate's 'clone' of sorts), and eating some from each.

Actually, it was two lunches. Yuji gave a bit of each to Konoe, though, it would be a bit humorous if Hecate or Konoe attempted to cook something edible.

Seireiden explodes from Hecate's cooking attempt or Konoe's hair catches on fire and she screams and run like a banshee.

[Owaranai Destiny]

Originally Posted by Kimichi

Actually she's there to do the complete opposite...Bog down the "Romance" in the series and create a tired Love triangle that got old long ago last season. If anything it feels like the relationships have managed to go backwards this season (With the exception of ogixtanaka which I'm grateful for).

Thats one reason why I'm hopeful the action steps up a notch because I've pretty much given up on the "romance" aspects of the story.

Action was pretty much a key aspect to why the SnS shows had people hooked, I believe.

If anything, though, relationships have not gone backward. Compared to season 1, there's a seemingly unbreakable trust between Shana and Yuuji. She has gotten past the stage of not knowing what her feelings are for Yuuji (note all the blushing and tsundere-ness coming from her when Yuuji's involved) to knowing them and finally setting her mind to it to confirm a romantic relationship between Yuuji and herself. Besides that, the end scene of season 1 was used to set up another chance for (1) Shana to confess again so as to solidify and strengthen the relationship she's having with Yuuji. The way I see it, this 'love triangle' has changed. You don't see Yuuji spending time alone with Kazumi much anymore due to the shit that has been happening. If anything, the line holding Yuuji to Kazumi is weakening because of the recent events. Kazumi understands that, and simply wants to hold on to that thinning line in the hope of being able to stand with him and on even grounds with Shana.

Originally Posted by jin07

Spoiler for saving space:

I don't have a good memory of the first season so maybe someone can help me with this. The reason why I don't like Yoshida is that she has done nothing except whine. Let's see in about 44 (?) episodes how has Yoshida changed? All I remember her doing was whining about Yuuji, finding out he was mystes, whining about Yuuji, then she started this "I'm not going to lose to you Shana" thing, and now she's whining about being closer to Yuuji. She hasn't changed whatsoever while almost every other character has changed or we learned more about them. With Yoshida we still don't know why she even likes Yuuji or anything else about her. I thought at the end of the first season something was going to happen to her and she'd end up with Yuuji's friend. Well that didn't pan out. It literally feels like every time she's on screen she's whining about Yuuji, saying "I'm not going to lose to you Shana," or bemoaning how she isn't close to Yuuji. So instead of her trying to become stronger/useful, get closer to Yuuji, or confess to him, she has done NOTHING but whine. She is the shallowest character main character on Shana. I either want some development or she can use the Hougu and let the show move on.

So if a character whines because she doesn't have the power, have little means of obtaining it and can't do anything about it means she's shallow?

Are there ways of letting her becoming stronger at all? Looking at it this way, she certainly can't be a Flame Haze. A fine example of a 'half-assed' Flame Haze can be found in Yuri (Becoming a Flame Haze to save people? Pfft). I highly doubt Alastor or Marchosias or even Shana would even provide her a way to integrate into their world like that, seeing as they have already been omitting her already.

What I understand from Kazumi's reactions and actions is that she's a good example of how a normal human might think from, say, being omitted from the environment surrounding the person she likes the most without being able to do anything about it. To make it sound "good" to detractors out there, This "whining" represents the helplessness she feels.

Whining? Yes. Annoying? Maybe slightly, because I know if someone else is in the same position, they would feel the same feeling of frustration and helplessness especially if it concerns something they really want to hold on to.

[Kinny Riddle]

Originally Posted by jin07

I don't have a good memory of the first season so maybe someone can help me with this. The reason why I don't like Yoshida is that she has done nothing except whine. Let's see in about 44 (?) episodes how has Yoshida changed? All I remember her doing was whining about Yuuji, finding out he was mystes, whining about Yuuji, then she started this "I'm not going to lose to you Shana" thing, and now she's whining about being closer to Yuuji. She hasn't changed whatsoever while almost every other character has changed or we learned more about them. With Yoshida we still don't know why she even likes Yuuji or anything else about her. I thought at the end of the first season something was going to happen to her and she'd end up with Yuuji's friend. Well that didn't pan out. It literally feels like every time she's on screen she's whining about Yuuji, saying "I'm not going to lose to you Shana," or bemoaning how she isn't close to Yuuji. So instead of her trying to become stronger/useful, get closer to Yuuji, or confess to him, she has done NOTHING but whine. She is the shallowest character main character on Shana. I either want some development or she can use the Hougu and let the show move on.

So what if she whines? What would you have done if you were "just another human" like her? What else do you suggest she do? Are you suggesting you would jump into action, and then get killed pathetically like Yuri? And it's not like she's whining out loud anyway.

[jin07]

No, I think she's shallow because the character has no depth. All we know is that she likes Yuuji and wants to help him. We don't know why she liked him in the first place, why she continues to like him, and we barely know anything about her in general. We also haven't seen her have any real character development. She's the same person she was in the beginning despite having lived through so much. You'd think she would change like EVERY other main character.

The problem isn't that she has no power either. She's NEVER tried to become helpful. We see other human characters, Tanaka & Sato, do what they can and, more importantly, TRY to gain power. She continues to stand far away and talk about how she wishes she could help. I can't even remember a time when she asked any of the characters about becoming more powerful. I'd be fine if she felt helpless, but it gets old after so many episodes of her not trying to become more powerful. I'd also be fine with her trying to become stronger and fail. It's that she never tried which I would expect someone to do in order to protect their friends and the person they like.

Lastly, I don't remember her ever confessing to Yuuji. All I remember is her and Shana continually talking about who's going to tell Yuuji first.

However, I think we should probably take this somewhere else. Is there a character discussion thread anywhere? I don't want take the thread off topic or is this how episode discussion threads go? I do like lively discussions about anime.

[HayashiTakara]

I mentioned this before, but I think that seeing Shana and Yuji discovering what its like to be in a real relationship and at the same time deal with the dangers of their super natural lives. For once I would like to see that, rather than a beaten to death Love Triangle.

Really Kazumi is just an unnecessary obstacle, just from the opening you can tell she's gonna be that stupid retard that gets kidnapped because she insist in being in a world she doesn't belong in causing an unnecessary battle being leverage for the bad guys...

[Tokkan]

Originally Posted by jin07

Lastly, I don't remember her ever confessing to Yuuji. All I remember is her and Shana continually talking about who's going to tell Yuuji first.

She confessed to Yuji during the Misago Festival arc in season 1.

[ReinhartX]

wadever happen to the tomogara girl with the dream time power thingy that appeared on epi 1?

[Owaranai Destiny]

Originally Posted by jin07

No, I think she's shallow because the character has no depth. All we know is that she likes Yuuji and wants to help him. We don't know why she liked him in the first place, why she continues to like him, and we barely know anything about her in general. We also haven't seen her have any real character development. She's the same person she was in the beginning despite having lived through so much. You'd think she would change like EVERY other main character.

1st Correction: She's an underdeveloped character, a piece of evidence why she isn't really that major a character except for being a foil in the Yuuji-Shana relationship.

2nd Correction: We have seen the reason why she likes him and unlike some shows basing itself on romance, there is little explanation as to why she continues to like him-Oh wait, so love is now based on logic?

I digress. Anyway, the reason why she started liking him was shown in Season 1. Go watch.

The problem isn't that she has no power either. She's NEVER tried to become helpful. We see other human characters, Tanaka & Sato, do what they can and, more importantly, TRY to gain power. She continues to stand far away and talk about how she wishes she could help. I can't even remember a time when she asked any of the characters about becoming more powerful. I'd be fine if she felt helpless, but it gets old after so many episodes of her not trying to become more powerful. I'd also be fine with her trying to become stronger and fail. It's that she never tried which I would expect someone to do in order to protect their friends and the person they like.

Oh? The only closer Flame Haze she came across was Khamsin, who stayed for only a few episodes with her. As compared to Tanaka and Satou, we had Margery first using them as guides to Misaki City. Note that Tanaka was immediately 'impressed' by her, and Satou (who was more or less dragged into this) followed suit soon after. I'd advise you not to compare two guys who have seen their fair share of delinquency and perhaps fighting to a girl who was just acting like any shy and demure girl would one season ago, especially when she isn't all that familiar with any of the Flame Hazes except for Shana.

You can call her weak-willed, I suppose, since we have yet to see her do anything concrete to prove her words with actions, whatever they are that won't get her killed in the blink of an eye. The fact is, up till now Kazumi has assumed the role of an observer and has been literally told that she is just that. One's opinion of oneself can be formed from what other people tell you, and the role you believe you assume. I'd admit part of this is her own fault, though.

Lastly, I don't remember her ever confessing to Yuuji. All I remember is her and Shana continually talking about who's going to tell Yuuji first.

Okay...Your point? No one mentioned this. It would so happen Shana is more direct and forthcoming, while Kazumi is mostly a worrier as of now. Simply differences in viewpoints and personalities.

[Grimkill7]

Originally Posted by ReinhartX

wadever happen to the tomogara girl with the dream time power thingy that appeared on epi 1?

Dead. She fell into a plot hole and died.

[jin07]

Triple R posted she confessed, it was in response to that. Okay, now I remember that bit, it was around episode 19.

About when did the show tell us why Yoshida liked Yuuji? I don't think an explanation has to be logical at all. She could have a very illogical reason for continuing to like him, but there's usually a reason all the same.

Again I'm not saying she has to actually succeed in becoming stronger. I want her to TRY to get stronger. Doesn't she know Margery? I can see why she wouldn't want to ask Shana for help. You also bring up some good points about her not being in contact with more flame hazes or not knowing them as well. Well now she knows the other flame hazes so maybe she'll do something with the season ending. Unless there's a third season where she asks one of them.

You say she's under-developed, which to me is the same as shallow. Yuuji, Shana, Margery, Alastor, Tanaka, Wilhelmina, and Sato have all been developed. Considering the amount of screen time she has, you don't consider her a main character? How about of being developed at this point based on how much screen time she has? I honestly don't even see her as a foil to Shana and Yuuji's relationship. Yuuji doesn't even pay much attention to her. I can see her as competition to Shana from Shana's perspective, but I wouldn't say foil. I just think of someone different when I think of a foil. If she altered Shana's relationship with Yuuji or made Yuuji consider her instead of Shana, then I would consider her a foil.

Nevertheless, to me she's a boring, ignorant character who repeats the same lines again and again. I think that's where my ire for her arises. And to you she's something different. I don't think we're ever going to change each other's opinions on that. I hope that other Flame Haze shows up and Yoshida asks him for help or asks one of the other FHs.

[Owaranai Destiny]

Originally Posted by jin07

About when did the show tell us why Yoshida liked Yuuji? I don't think an explanation has to be logical at all. She could have a very illogical reason for continuing to like him, but there's usually a reason all the same.

Season 1, episode 4. When Yuuji asked if she was all right. After stopping Shana's punching and shouting at her to kick instead, he stood up to the teacher. Those were the first signs. Like I said, go watch.

Again I'm not saying she has to actually succeed in becoming stronger. I want her to TRY to get stronger. Doesn't she know Margery?

Margery was one of the first to object to her being at their meeting to discuss what was to be done about Yuuji. So much for knowing her well enough to get her to help.

You say she's under-developed, which to me is the same as shallow. Yuuji, Shana, Margery, Alastor, Tanaka, Wilhelmina, and Sato have all been developed. Considering the amount of screen time she has, you don't consider her a main character? How about of being developed at this point based on how much screen time she has? I honestly don't even see her as a foil to Shana and Yuuji's relationship. Yuuji doesn't even pay much attention to her. I can see her as competition to Shana from Shana's perspective, but I wouldn't say foil. I just think of someone different when I think of a foil. If she altered Shana's relationship with Yuuji or made Yuuji consider her instead of Shana, then I would consider her a foil.

I don't know which dictionary you got the definition of 'shallow' from, but this probably is the easiest definition for you:

From Wikipedia:
Shallow means not very deep.

Used metaphorically, it is a derogative term used to describe people who are perceived to be superficial or without "depth".

Depth, when describing an individual, usually indicates profundity, intellectual curiosity, and a lack of preoccupation with material possessions or personal appearances. By contrast, somebody who appears superficial, materialistic, or petty is likely to be denounced as shallow. A person lacking an interest in knowledge or intellectual pursuits may also be regarded as shallow.

Please tell me you are talking about a different kind of 'shallow'.

Look at it this way: I said Not that major, so perhaps you misunderstood. Up till now, the main characters are still Shana and Yuuji IMO. All the others you mentioned are major: More or less essential for the focal points of the show.

[Kinny Riddle]

Originally Posted by jin07

You say she's under-developed, which to me is the same as shallow. Yuuji, Shana, Margery, Alastor, Tanaka, Wilhelmina, and Sato have all been developed.

And this is where your standards fall short. Underdeveloped does not equal shallow, I cannot comprehend how you managed to link these two together. Owaranai above has elaborated well about this as well.

Considering the amount of screen time she has, you don't consider her a main character? How about of being developed at this point based on how much screen time she has? I honestly don't even see her as a foil to Shana and Yuuji's relationship. Yuuji doesn't even pay much attention to her. I can see her as competition to Shana from Shana's perspective, but I wouldn't say foil. I just think of someone different when I think of a foil. If she altered Shana's relationship with Yuuji or made Yuuji consider her instead of Shana, then I would consider her a foil.

Nevertheless, to me she's a boring, ignorant character who repeats the same lines again and again. I think that's where my ire for her arises. And to you she's something different. I don't think we're ever going to change each other's opinions on that. I hope that other Flame Haze shows up and Yoshida asks him for help or asks one of the other FHs.

If not even author Takahashi can get you to sympathize with her, which I'm pretty sure is his intention, then feel free to continue feeling ire for her, for she's not going to go away for your pleasure anytime soon. As you yourself said, we're not going to convince you, and neither are you going to convince us why Yoshida deserve all this slack.