[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[Marion]

The character you're talking about is pretty warped, but not in the Maria sense.

Spoiler for Major Ending Paranoia Agent Spoilers:

Maromi was based on her dog, who she believes she killed due to her irresponsibility, and her immense guilt led to a subconscious Maromi in her mind and Lil Slugger, who meets the description of the lie she made up to get out of trouble for the dog's death.

Maria is just a lonely girl who makes imaginary friends to make herself happy. As I said before it's not uncommon at all for kids to make imaginary friends. For Beatrice we know that Maria HAD to have met a Beatrice because she gets the letter.

[hodil]

I'm not so sure if we had red confirmations of Maria meeting beatrice, with exception to episode 2. But by saying Maria definitely met Beatrice, it rules out the possibility that Maria hallucinated it/lied. The letter could have landed in her hands in some manner that suggested it was from beatrice or claims to be from beatrice. After seeing NatsuMi in higurashi... i dont know how i should believe a little girl.

And the opening for paranoia agent is warped

[desirebluesky]

it's strongly hinted that Maria fails at both lying and spotting lies, i can't imagine her doing that unless she believes what she's saying. and hallucinating isn't needed, i already said it, she's bad at spotting lies. i bet it would be easy to make her believe something, if you provided a good explanation and stuff. she's naive.

[Xapheron]

Originally Posted by desirebluesky

it's strongly hinted that Maria fails at both lying and spotting lies, i can't imagine her doing that unless she believes what she's saying. and hallucinating isn't needed, i already said it, she's bad at spotting lies. i bet it would be easy to make her believe something, if you provided a good explanation and stuff. she's naive.

She's lonely, bullied at school and mistreated at home. A bit of kindness will probably make her do anything you say. Even if she knows the true identity of Beatrice, she'll probably never reveal it as she believes the person to 'be' Beatrice. Thus, when the person gives the letter to Maria 'as Beatrice', no matter how much the adults force it out of her, she'll still say it's Beatrice. It's to protect her 'magic world' - where she has friends; denying that the person is Beatrice is equivalent to destroying that world.

[ijriims]

The adults should have to ask her KINDLY about what sort of costumes "Beatrice" had been wearing and how Maria knew that was Beatrice to deduce who that Beatrice was. Of course, it was likely the culprit had actually changed the costumes to fit the portrait in anticipation of these kinds of questions.

Indeed, for a kid like Maria, if some person has been dressing like the Beatrice in the portrait (as in the case of EP4), she would immediately believe she to be Beatrice. This line of reasoning draws the readers' attention to why each time Maria was so "conveniently" stationing in the garden and received the umbrella and the letter from Beatrice or Kinzo (what Rosa claimed in EP4), it must be someone's planning rather than a coincidence. (Similar to the death of Tamitake and "Takano" in Higurashi) Following this line, you have to suspect someone purposefully remove the withering rose or Rosa being a culprit. Either case, the culprit must know Maria's character well and in Rosa not being culprit's case, predicted Rosa's response as well.

[Workworkwork]

Originally Posted by Xapheron

She's lonely, bullied at school and mistreated at home. A bit of kindness will probably make her do anything you say. Even if she knows the true identity of Beatrice, she'll probably never reveal it as she believes the person to 'be' Beatrice. Thus, when the person gives the letter to Maria 'as Beatrice', no matter how much the adults force it out of her, she'll still say it's Beatrice. It's to protect her 'magic world' - where she has friends; denying that the person is Beatrice is equivalent to destroying that world.

There IS a REAL Beatrice on the island, filling in for one of the 17 people already dead besides Kinzo! You people just want to destroy Kanon/Jessica or George/Shannon along with Battler/Beatrice!

I am basing my stubborn line of thought on that alone, and working out the details later! So I might not uh, have everything I need to assert that...

[hodil]

Haha yea i always suspected someone else to be dead. But the only thing is that Battler has seen almost everyone... except Kanon and Shannon together...(hope it changed in episode 5)

Or. Someone was dead and this Beatrice conveniently impersonated the deceased. Lets say Kumawasa was already dead, and an old lady called Beatrice impersonated her. And thus the old lady killed everyone with her ninja moves and deadly mackeral jokes.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Workworkwork

There IS a REAL Beatrice on the island, filling in for one of the 17 people already dead besides Kinzo! You people just want to destroy Kanon/Jessica or George/Shannon along with Battler/Beatrice!

I am basing my stubborn line of thought on that alone, and working out the details later! So I might not uh, have everything I need to assert that...

What do you mean by destorying the couples? My theory does not entail any of the couple killing each other, while not resorting to an unknown death among the 17 people. So I don't really know what you are yelling at?

[Vega Lyra]

Umineko no naku koro ni reminds me of the game "Werewolves"...I don't know how similar they are, but here's a summary on the game: http://www.eblong.com/zarf/werewolf.html Reminds me of a roulette, don't you think?

[Antera Caramichael]

I think that it is more a similare game, ironically called Killer, in which someone is killed during the night and another one during the day. The people votes to imprison someone and if during the next phase (Night/Day), no one is killed, the folks wins.
By the way, the game is supposed to takes place during two days

[Vega Lyra]

Originally Posted by Antera Caramichael

I think that it is more a similare game, ironically called Killer, in which someone is killed during the night and another one during the day. The people votes to imprison someone and if during the next phase (Night/Day), no one is killed, the folks wins.
By the way, the game is supposed to takes place during two days

Interesting, I'll look into it more. Maybe Umineko is based on some rules of the said game.

[desirebluesky]

Originally Posted by Vega Lyra

Umineko no naku koro ni reminds me of the game "Werewolves"...I don't know how similar they are, but here's a summary on the game: http://www.eblong.com/zarf/werewolf.html Reminds me of a roulette, don't you think?

a few days ago i actualy wondered if game board isn't something like Werefolf in Quantum version. one of us has some epic mind reading skills.
it kinda fits with the schrodinger's cat references and how you're forced to figure out the game while playing. lots of things sound familar.

i bet the whole gameboard rules are about quantum physics actually. Beato sure is a smart guy. </epileptic tree>

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

You've never read Calvin and Hobbes, have you?

It's exactly like that.

I love how Robot chicken portrayed the Calvin and Hobbes situation

http://www.livevideo.com/media/favor...DEAEC23CE3B963

There are a few things that really reminds me of Umineko:

-The stuffed animal is a birthday present
-the child believes it's a real animal

Psychotherapist: Who are you talking to?
Calvin: To Hobbes, my pet tiger, can't you see him?
Psychotherapist: Hmm, that's just a stuffed animal
Calvin: No it's not, it's real!

Hobbes: Calvin, your parents don't believe, we have to kill them!

Going to mars = going to the golden land?

[Xapheron]

Originally Posted by Workworkwork

There IS a REAL Beatrice on the island, filling in for one of the 17 people already dead besides Kinzo! You people just want to destroy Kanon/Jessica or George/Shannon along with Battler/Beatrice!

I am basing my stubborn line of thought on that alone, and working out the details later! So I might not uh, have everything I need to assert that...

You're not alone really. I myself don't want to kill off any couples, Battler/Beatrice is just too awesome, what better way to get (back) together than playing a real-life mystery murder featuring your own family! Although if I had a choice I would take out George/Shannon.

That killer game sounds like one of those group games you play at orientations or camps. The 'quantum' factor in meta-Beatrice's version is probably that every round, someone goes crazy and starts killing off the family, besides the piece-Beatrice who's plotting something/killing as well.

[Vega Lyra]

Originally Posted by desirebluesky

a few days ago i actualy wondered if game board isn't something like Werefolf in Quantum version. one of us has some epic mind reading skills.
it kinda fits with the schrodinger's cat references and how you're forced to figure out the game while playing. lots of things sound familar.

i bet the whole gameboard rules are about quantum physics actually. Beato sure is a smart guy. </epileptic tree>

Well, according to Quantum Physics it's impossible to observe a system without disturbing it. Perhaps people who originally didn't intend to be part of the murders got dragged into the killing spree. Perhaps some knew it was going to happen, and would just stay at the sidelines, but as said earlier would get dragged into the killing spree. (It'd be pretty hard to carry 30kgs worth of pure gold from underground(?) to a Chapel by oneself, let alone a table and chairs. It would require many return trips or a sturdy cart, and I'm pretty sure a cart made for stairs did not exist in the 80's. Perhaps an elevator could have been used, if there was one. )

[Ithekro]

There are suggestions that Shannon is a murderer or mastermind. This might still be possible even with George's confession to her...since it comes to late on the evening of October 4th...plans might already be in motion and she can't stop them even if she wanted to stop them.

Isn't that scene is all games...at least involving Shannon having George's ring? (Even if Battler doesn't see it, if it repeats every single time...one might assume it to be true...or, inversely, the very core of the lie.)

Kinzo is dead. Shannon knows this. She's been there a long time...almost two thirds of her own life. There are hints she might be Maria's "Beatrice", though there are hints that several people could be this "Beatrice".

There are no plot holes...only Gaap.

[Vega Lyra]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

There are suggestions that Shannon is a murderer or mastermind. This might still be possible even with George's confession to her...since it comes to late on the evening of October 4th...plans might already be in motion and she can't stop them even if she wanted to stop them.

Isn't that scene is all games...at least involving Shannon having George's ring? (Even if Battler doesn't see it, if it repeats every single time...one might assume it to be true...or, inversely, the very core of the lie.)

Kinzo is dead. Shannon knows this. She's been there a long time...almost two thirds of her own life. There are hints she might be Maria's "Beatrice", though there are hints that several people could be this "Beatrice".

There are no plot holes...only Gaap.

Could you tell me about those suggestions that Shannon is the mastermind? I'm curious. Or is the same scene where Shannon and George are in the arbor the suggestion itself?

[rogerpepitone]

George doesn't give the ring to Shannon in episode 4.

[yggdrasil325]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

George doesn't give the ring to Shannon in episode 4.

Because things get put into motion really early in that episode. The ring scene happens close to the end of Oct 4. In episode 4, George is already dead by the time the scene should have happened.

[Jan-Poo]

Who knows, maybe he did... right before being shot in the head.

If what Bern said about the fact that events prior to October4 will never change is the truth, then George must have bought the ring already even in the foruth game. It would be strange if he didn't bring it with himself. If he didn't give it to Shannon, it should be in his pocket.