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Antera Caramichael · 2009-11-05, 15:42

Nothing contradict the other idea.
The culprit can be human, but can have used spells and magical devices in order to kill. By definition, s/he is a Witch, Sorcerer. In Nanjo's case: To be here while no one was supposed to be here.

Aebliss · 2009-11-05, 15:54

Ah, ah. Beatrice said that

Spoiler:

Antera Caramichael · 2009-11-05, 16:02

But her red truth said that no one of the survivor was there. What's left is the dead, but all of them was confirmed.
So technically, there is no way it could work... at least by physically rationnal human deeds

.

Jan-Poo · 2009-11-05, 16:11

At the time what I considered the major flaw in Eva-Beatrice's red truths was the fact that she not only made the human theory impossible, she also made the witch's theory impossible.

If she claimed, as Beato always did, that she is an ethereal witch and not a human it would be all right. But Eva-Beatrice claims she is a human witch.

The problem here is the people limit. A witch that isn't human doesn't fall in the people limit. But a human witch should.

So the question now is: does a human witch exist in Rokkenjima?
If it exist it must be one of the 18 or less people in Rokkenjima.
However Eva-Beatrice said in red that 15 persons are dead.
And the 3 who survived didn't kill Nanjo

With this you could use Eva-Beatrice red truths to claim that this postulated human-witch on Rokkenjima who killed Nanjo can't possibly exist.

Aebliss · 2009-11-05, 16:16

So ... either Beatrice is confused or lying? Remember: we only have Beatrice's word that she tells the absolute truth when using red text, she's not above tricking Battler for her own purpose, and the easiest way to win a game is to cheat ...

Jan-Poo · 2009-11-05, 16:38

there is simply a big trick in the way Eva-Beatrice presented her story. That's fine that's actually what a witch should so. The problem is she was supposed to make a theory that would make magic the only possible solution, instead she made a story that makes this murder impossible even with magic. Magic can defy the laws of nature, not the laws of logic. She did it wrong. But all went well because Battler didn't realize it.

She might have repaired to her blunder by saying: "I have animated a dead body and made it kill Nanjo". But that would be a change in what the witch as shown to us in the metaworld.

LyricalAura · 2009-11-05, 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

She might have repaired to her blunder by saying: "I have animated a dead body and made it kill Nanjo". But that would be a change in what the witch as shown to us in the metaworld.

Since she didn't say in red that "it's impossible for a dead person to commit murder," isn't that basically what she was arguing for in the first place? It's still consistent with Eva-Beatrice's actions, since she wasn't on-screen the whole time and we didn't see how Nanjo died.

Jan-Poo · 2009-11-05, 17:12

Uh? No we did see that. Both in the anime and the novel Eva-Beatrice kills him with her staff. Meaning that Eva red truths are consistent with that scene for the most part.

LyricalAura · 2009-11-05, 17:38

Oh, hmm. Apparently I need to reread that section then

Arbane the Terrible · 2009-11-05, 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aebliss

So ... either Beatrice is confused or lying? Remember: we only have Beatrice's word that she tells the absolute truth when using red text, she's not above tricking Battler for her own purpose, and the easiest way to win a game is to cheat ...

It's not much of a game if she does that, is it? And Bernkastel would (probably) have called her on it.

Ithekro · 2009-11-05, 20:01

The murder was standing on their feet and killed Nanjo....something like that. The question is...Did Nanjo kill the killer to allow for a red truth that 15 people are dead

Or does Eva-Beatrice count on another person that was classifed as dead in red during Game 3? Beatrice (1967) is dead on the island..according to Rosa and the red text.

kite11 · 2009-11-06, 18:40

Me and a non-umineko friend basically went to the reasoning that there was a power outage
due to:

Nanjo and Eva's party never passed Nanjo, at least with Battler.
Battler is always watching Eva, but if it was obscured by something... (We took watching as "long as Battler saw Eva's frame".
Nanjo could have been killed if Eva had a knife or something. (The fan?)
It was a quick murder.

Yeah, we were high on sugar and tired when we did this... I asked for his help because he wouldn't have to deal with the confusing witch theory.
We need the red truth list updated!

maximilianjenus · 2009-11-06, 20:35

most theories I have seen point out to someone not quite dying in one of the previous fights (kyrie, hidayoshi), then said person killing nanjo and dying shortly after.

kite11 · 2009-11-06, 23:19

That would mean Nanjo is an accomplice because he affirmed their deaths... I don't like it. It's too mystery cliche. Need red truths to confirm, but I thought the bodies weren't moved. I also would expect blood around from bleeding, unless the red carpet hid it. (Lame)

It's never stated what wound he died from, right?

hodil · 2009-11-06, 23:24

To clear your doubts.

The VN stated he died from a wound that looked like it was made from a spear or a gun shot.

A few other people in this episode had a similar wound.

Notably, the people in the first twilight, George, Kyrie, Rudolph, Hideyoshi. (If im not wrong. My memory is rusty.)

Note that the other twilights were conducted with more mundane means.
Second twilight - Impaled, strangled.
Natsuhi, Krauss - Strangled.

Thus, you can also derieve a similar theory from the anime. Since there are two different kinds of murder, is it possible for two different murderers to be present?

Arbane the Terrible · 2009-11-07, 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by hodil

Thus, you can also derieve a similar theory from the anime. Since there are two different kinds of murder, is it possible for two different murderers to be present?

Considering that different people die first (and last) in each arc, I'd say "why stop at two?"

risingstar3110 · 2009-11-07, 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arbane the Terrible

Considering that different people die first (and last) in each arc, I'd say "why stop at two?"

How about....

Almost all 18 people on this islands had motives to kill a certain number of others (and would carry them out in certain world). Umineko's such a hard case to solve because none of us expected that many culprits would exist, and that many crimes can happen in one single occasion?

Aebliss · 2009-11-07, 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by kite11

That would mean Nanjo is an accomplice because he affirmed their deaths... I don't like it. It's too mystery cliche.

This actually makes sense ... Nanjo states clearly that he has a sick grandchild. If he desperately needs the money to treat this grandchild or to have it treated, he might have gone along with the killer. When the not-quite-dead victim comes along, he is trying to explain why he did it before whatever happens to him, does.

maximilianjenus · 2009-11-07, 18:29

or he can be misled by the killer, something like:

Episod1_:
Kanon: nanjo, tell tehm I died so I can search for the criminal.
nanjo: ok, lol!

Ttak · 2009-11-07, 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximilianjenus

or he can be misled by the killer, something like:

Episod1_:
Kanon: nanjo, tell tehm I died so I can search for the criminal.
nanjo: ok, lol!

And then Kanon could tell Maria he is Beatrice

, kill Nanjo, Genji and Kumasawa for some random motive, then lure Natsuhi out of the parlor and kill her too. He can enter/close the parlor easily because he got a master key too! So it's easy for him.

2009-11-05, 15:54	Link #862
Aebliss Story Master Join Date: Mar 2008	Ah, ah. Beatrice said that Spoiler: the killer was a human with both feet on the ground, who picked up a weapon to kill.

2009-11-05, 16:11	Link #864
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	At the time what I considered the major flaw in Eva-Beatrice's red truths was the fact that she not only made the human theory impossible, she also made the witch's theory impossible. If she claimed, as Beato always did, that she is an ethereal witch and not a human it would be all right. But Eva-Beatrice claims she is a human witch. The problem here is the people limit. A witch that isn't human doesn't fall in the people limit. But a human witch should. So the question now is: does a human witch exist in Rokkenjima? If it exist it must be one of the 18 or less people in Rokkenjima. However Eva-Beatrice said in red that 15 persons are dead. And the 3 who survived didn't kill Nanjo With this you could use Eva-Beatrice red truths to claim that this postulated human-witch on Rokkenjima who killed Nanjo can't possibly exist. __________________

2009-11-05, 16:16	Link #865
Aebliss Story Master Join Date: Mar 2008	So ... either Beatrice is confused or lying? Remember: we only have Beatrice's word that she tells the absolute truth when using red text, she's not above tricking Battler for her own purpose, and the easiest way to win a game is to cheat ... Last edited by Aebliss; 2009-11-05 at 16:33.

2009-11-05, 16:38	Link #866
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	there is simply a big trick in the way Eva-Beatrice presented her story. That's fine that's actually what a witch should so. The problem is she was supposed to make a theory that would make magic the only possible solution, instead she made a story that makes this murder impossible even with magic. Magic can defy the laws of nature, not the laws of logic. She did it wrong. But all went well because Battler didn't realize it. She might have repaired to her blunder by saying: "I have animated a dead body and made it kill Nanjo". But that would be a change in what the witch as shown to us in the metaworld. __________________

2009-11-05, 17:12	Link #868
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	Uh? No we did see that. Both in the anime and the novel Eva-Beatrice kills him with her staff. Meaning that Eva red truths are consistent with that scene for the most part. __________________

2009-11-05, 15:42	Link #861
Antera Caramichael French Maid Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Poitiers; France Age: 31	Nothing contradict the other idea. The culprit can be human, but can have used spells and magical devices in order to kill. By definition, s/he is a Witch, Sorcerer. In Nanjo's case: To be here while no one was supposed to be here.

2009-11-05, 16:02	Link #863
Antera Caramichael French Maid Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Poitiers; France Age: 31	But her red truth said that no one of the survivor was there. What's left is the dead, but all of them was confirmed. So technically, there is no way it could work... at least by physically rationnal human deeds .

2009-11-05, 17:38	Link #869
LyricalAura Dea ex Kakera Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Sea of Fragments	Oh, hmm. Apparently I need to reread that section then

2009-11-05, 20:01	Link #871
Ithekro Gamilas Falls Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Republic of California Age: 46	The murder was standing on their feet and killed Nanjo....something like that. The question is...Did Nanjo kill the killer to allow for a red truth that 15 people are dead Or does Eva-Beatrice count on another person that was classifed as dead in red during Game 3? Beatrice (1967) is dead on the island..according to Rosa and the red text. __________________

2009-11-06, 18:40	Link #872
kite11 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2009	Me and a non-umineko friend basically went to the reasoning that there was a power outage due to: Nanjo and Eva's party never passed Nanjo, at least with Battler. Battler is always watching Eva, but if it was obscured by something... (We took watching as "long as Battler saw Eva's frame". Nanjo could have been killed if Eva had a knife or something. (The fan?) It was a quick murder. Yeah, we were high on sugar and tired when we did this... I asked for his help because he wouldn't have to deal with the confusing witch theory. We need the red truth list updated!

2009-11-06, 20:35	Link #873
maximilianjenus [E] Join Date: Mar 2008	most theories I have seen point out to someone not quite dying in one of the previous fights (kyrie, hidayoshi), then said person killing nanjo and dying shortly after.

2009-11-06, 23:19	Link #874
kite11 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2009	That would mean Nanjo is an accomplice because he affirmed their deaths... I don't like it. It's too mystery cliche. Need red truths to confirm, but I thought the bodies weren't moved. I also would expect blood around from bleeding, unless the red carpet hid it. (Lame) It's never stated what wound he died from, right?

2009-11-06, 23:24	Link #875
hodil Solve me... Join Date: Mar 2009	To clear your doubts. The VN stated he died from a wound that looked like it was made from a spear or a gun shot. A few other people in this episode had a similar wound. Notably, the people in the first twilight, George, Kyrie, Rudolph, Hideyoshi. (If im not wrong. My memory is rusty.) Note that the other twilights were conducted with more mundane means. Second twilight - Impaled, strangled. Natsuhi, Krauss - Strangled. Thus, you can also derieve a similar theory from the anime. Since there are two different kinds of murder, is it possible for two different murderers to be present? __________________ "._."._."._."._."._."._."._."._."._."._."._."._.". _."._."._."._."._." The blog of truths.

2009-11-07, 18:29	Link #879
maximilianjenus [E] Join Date: Mar 2008	or he can be misled by the killer, something like: Episod1_: Kanon: nanjo, tell tehm I died so I can search for the criminal. nanjo: ok, lol!