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[Sumeragi]

Try Gödel's incompleteness theorems.

[HasuMasu]

Originally Posted by TRL

I think this is the problem I often see in AnimeSuki. The socio-political views of most members here are decidedly left-leaning and very sceptical towards religion and faith in general. While there's nothing wrong with that per se, it becomes problematic when religious people who hold strong doctrinal views are tarred as bigoted madmen incapable of change.

When we do that, we effectively alienate the very people we ought to be working with to change mindsets for the better. And that can't possibly bode well for progress.

As an Atheist and former Catholic Christian, I have decidedly taken the stance to ignore matters relating to that as much as possible.

Back in the day I used to be very confrontational regarding that, but any and all 'debates' on the matter were absolutely pointless and it didn't at all take long for me to get tired of them and realise I maybe wasn't suited to confrontation.

They will not change, and I have no intention of forcing them to and/or holding them in contempt for not doing so.

Change lies with the future generations, I see little to no value in dealing with living relics.

They will slowly but surely die out over time and we will see change in the next hundred years, it's maybe okay to just leave them alone.

Despite this, I hold neither contempt nor pity, rather than relics they are more like ghosts, and all ghosts, when the fog clears, are but grass in the wind.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

Try Gödel's incompleteness theorems.

Yes, studied those. So? Not a relevant example - more like it explains the inherent limitations of any mathematical system.

Try the assertion of pi = 3. An assertion that actually collides with facts on the ground.

[Sumeragi]

"And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about." (1 Kings 7:23)

"Also he made a molten sea of ten cubits from brim to brim, round in compass, and five cubits the height thereof; and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about." (2 Chronicles 4:2)


1. There was no claim that the sea was a perfect circle, and there was the reasonable possibility that the sea was elliptical and that 10 cubits was its longer dimension.

2. The 30 cubit measurement may have been the interior circumference while 10 cubits was the diameter from one outside edge to the other. That is, the thickness of the "brim" accounts for the discrepancy.

3. Isn't "3.14" the approximation we all use for pi? If the numbers are only accurate to the nearest unit, then even mathematically the passage is correct.

4. Was this supposed to be some accurate measurement, given that the cubit itself was an inherently ambiguous unit, being based on the length of the human forearm? For that matter, was there any specific reason why we would have to go into the decimals?

5. Have we ever been able to definitely define what pi is? When the "facts on the ground" has not even ultimately established yet, who is to say that any measurement, especially something that is only an approximation.


Basically, you're using something that was never meant to be a statement on the definition of pi to force an argument that has no standing, never mind the complete ignoring of context. That's certainly not something any person supposedly supporting "facts on the ground" would do unless that person was a hypocrite or a bigot.

Given all the illogical assertions you use to prove that "science" is the sole true fact, I have to say we'll never agree on the issue.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

First of all, I'm a free-thinker; I'm agnostic on the question of God. But it also means I'm open to the possibility and importance of spirituality. So, I think it's ill-advised to write off "doctrinal belief systems" as irrational mumbo-jumbo that only fools would take up.

AnimeSuki memebers may find the experience of astronauts who walked the Moon interesting.

How Moon travel changed astronauts


So, what happened? Would members here say that Irwin became a loon after his moon-walking experience?

Does that even constitute being a loon?

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Does that even constitute being a loon?

It depends on who you ask, doesn't it?

Originally Posted by Vexx

"may be based" ... Besides, if a doctrinal belief system is *colliding* with the facts on the ground, it is by definition a malfunction.

Can't dispute that. But when it comes to ethics, things become grey. Where to draw the line between right and wrong, what is the basis for moral decision-making, is morality relative at all times — these are wrenching questions for most people.

To what extent is it a clash of values and civilisations, and to what extent can we impose one point of view on another — these questions are far from settled.

You can't legislate change. Passing laws alone won't make people change their minds. There needs to be outreach as well. Even as pro-gay communities press for understanding and acceptance, to what extent have they done the same for the other side? What I see, at least in Singapore, is a hardening of views. True, the government isn't helping with its lame attempts to sidestep the issue, but it may not necessarily be a bad policy because what little has been said was already enough polarise debate, making rational discussion next to impossible. It makes the prospect of change very low.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

I think this is the problem I often see in AnimeSuki. The socio-political views of most members here are decidedly left-leaning and very sceptical towards religion and faith in general. While there's nothing wrong with that per se, it becomes problematic when religious people who hold strong doctrinal views are tarred as bigoted madmen incapable of change.

When we do that, we effectively alienate the very people we ought to be working with to change mindsets for the better. And that can't possibly bode well for progress.

I'm somewhat hesitant to assign religion a position in the left-right divide.

I think it's somewhat of a libertarian streak on Animesuki which is incompatible with value systems that are in conflict with personal freedoms. We see similar opposition to for example to gun control and mandatory health insurance.

[Ridwan]

This forum sure lags way behind on god vs science feud. That like fell out of style only a century after "endless analysis upon Islam" did. We're not facebook, man. Let's just move on.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Does that even constitute being a loon?

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

It depends on who you ask, doesn't it?

I think you guys missed out pertinent questions :

1. Who are the ones behind the writing of this article, and how much do they know about aeronautics and space?

2. What is the motive of writing this article, and what is the general response to the article?

3. How much are the people involved paid for publishing this article?

The article seems to be written for a gossip rag rather than reading material for S&T sections for for general news, let alone science journals.

Originally Posted by Ridwan

This forum sure lags way behind on god vs science feud. That like fell out of style only a century after "endless analysis upon Islam" did. We're not facebook, man. Let's just move on.

Karmic response. Religion proponents tend to be those that fear what distasteful things can be done with knowledge, while the science proponents tend to fear what distasteful things can be done without knowledge.

Arguments like these are inevitable because of puritans and their sense of belief, they believe in "winning" regardless of pyrrhic victories or ad nauseam. Regardless, it is fun to watch because the longer it drags on, the more comical it becomes as the participants tend to look less bright than they seem to be.

By the way, I am taking and pooling bets for the next argument each participant might bring. PM me for your details to transact; I accept Paypal, Western Union and Moneybookers.

[ganbaru]

China offers India a 'handshake across the Himalayas'
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...94J03820130520

The fight for North Dakota's fracking-water market
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...94J02120130520

In towns across North Dakota, the wellhead of the North American energy boom, the locals have taken to quoting the adage: "Whiskey is for drinking, and water is for fighting."

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Karmic response. Religion proponents tend to be those that fear what distasteful things can be done with knowledge, while the science proponents tend to fear what distasteful things can be done without knowledge.

Well, I have yet to see any benefit in doing anything without knowledge. The only time it is useful is when you want to lie and deceive.

As for distasteful things that can be done with knowledge? At least it would be done deliberately. Not to do harm through ignorance and fear.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

As for distasteful things that can be done with knowledge? At least it would be done deliberately. Not to do harm through ignorance and fear.

Actually it does, the same way.

Though it would be inducing a fear of being left behind due to their own "ignorance" when the data is arranged to present things from a certain perspective.

[ArchmageXin]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...813_story.html

North Koreans hold Chinese Fishermen hostage.

I suppose I can take consolation on the fact if this was a South Korean fishing boat, they probably get sentenced to hard labor right now.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Arguments like these are inevitable because of puritans and their sense of belief, they believe in "winning" regardless of pyrrhic victories or ad nauseam. Regardless, it is fun to watch because the longer it drags on, the more comical it becomes as the participants tend to look less bright than they seem to be.

It's a false dichotomy to claim that science and religion will inevitably clash. It isn't that science and religion are diametrically opposed, it's that people who cling to a belief will reject alterations to that belief. Religion is an easy target to pick on because the religious documents are largely considered complete, but these conflicts occur in science as well. Even if there is a publication or a series of publications it's easy to shoot down the methodology or even to wonder if the handwork of the scientists behind the data was somehow flawed.

Again, it all comes back to how passionate you are about your belief, or how central it is to your world view. Pluto's planetary status is a nice example because nearly everyone was brought up believing that there were a certain number of planets in orbit around our sun. It was probably one of the first scientifically-related bits of knowledge that you knew, and to alter that requires a slight shift to your perception of the universe. Yet it's a perception that you had from before you can remember, so it's difficult.

You don't have to be religious to be against "gay marriage," either. Some members of my family are non-religious, possibly atheists, and they're sour on the idea. It's likely for the same reason as with Pluto's planetary status: they grew up with marriage being a tradition between two members of the opposite gender, and changing that view is redefining what is normal. I can't say whether people like them are in the minority or whether it's just that the Bible thumpers happen to be the loudest; perhaps both.

Society is advancing regardless. People religious and non-religious alike may be against "gay marriage" because the entire idea of homosexual individuals was something that wasn't widely discussed until relatively recently. Older individuals probably haven't interacted with people who are openly homosexual, so there's a depersonalized approach. Now that homosexuality is becoming more widely accepted and more people are "coming out" there is greater opportunity for people to see that homosexuals really aren't different from the average person. Eventually it will become the new normal for the younger generations, and then it will be a non-issue.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Ledgem

It's a false dichotomy to claim that science and religion will inevitably clash. It isn't that science and religion are diametrically opposed, it's that people who cling to a belief will reject alterations to that belief. Religion is an easy target to pick on because the religious documents are largely considered complete, but these conflicts occur in science as well. Even if there is a publication or a series of publications it's easy to shoot down the methodology or even to wonder if the handwork of the scientists behind the data was somehow flawed.

I think I should have made myself clearer with that statement you quoted through better construction.

What I meant was along the lines of what you have wrote, hence I reasoned it as "puritans and their sense of belief"; people pick a fight when it comes to science v religion because of their attachment to either, and each of them gave a sense of self-esteem and confidence to the believer which they sought so hard to find.

Either that which their knowledge in such wards away the people they don't feel comfortable with, ususally those that try to convert them to a different camp they don't feel easy being part of.

Belief is a largely emotional thing, no matter how much fact is there to substantiate it. Sure it can drive the passion of the person to seek knowledge in that field, but too much of it can shut him or her off to other things he or she might miss from the other side of the pasture.

I think tasting grass on both sides, slowly chewing through them, and not to ignore swallowing any stones is the best before forming an opinion on which side tastes better, rather than just rushing through them or even worse, judging by the colour of the grass on either side.

And oh goodness......

Yahoo buying Tumblr for $1.1 billion, vows not to screw it up

You have got to be f-king kidding me.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Actually it does, the same way.

Though it would be inducing a fear of being left behind due to their own "ignorance" when the data is arranged to present things from a certain perspective.

That's called deception, like a certain Whitehouse email that was maliciously edited to make Obama look bad.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

It depends on who you ask, doesn't it?

There's a point behind all this....namely under all the fancy ideo-philosophical facade it's all a matter of "I can't stand your stinking face, ideas be damned." Few even care about actual ideas these days other than their own dick size. None will actually say that in the open of course.

[Ridwan]

Pic below is relevant :

Originally Posted by Ridwan

[ArchmageXin]

I think this is the problem I often see in AnimeSuki. The socio-political views of most members here are decidedly left-leaning and very sceptical towards religion and faith in general. While there's nothing wrong with that per se, it becomes problematic when religious people who hold strong doctrinal views are tarred as bigoted madmen incapable of change.

When we do that, we effectively alienate the very people we ought to be working with to change mindsets for the better. And that can't possibly bode well for progress.

The problem is, how would we change the view of the very people that by their religion, need to condemn us for:

-Supporting worship of the devil-All Magic are considered demonic, from "deep" stuff like Fullmetal Alchemist to light silly stuff like sailor moon.

-Unhealthy display of flesh-Ironically, the "Catholic" sailor suits, and anything lower of that.

-leading young people from god-Even stories that involve religion, often come with "alternative explanations"

-Aliens-Again, really devils, but pretend to be from outer space to seduce us. (Since God never created aliens)-A lot of Sci-Fi anime hit on this.

-Violence-Love thy brothers again, too much violence in anime.

-Science! I.E not God's words.

So even before we get into the fringes such as Hentai/loli/tentacles whats not, everyone on this board is either a social deviant (at best) or a Satanist (at worst). I left my church in 1990s when Magic the Gathering was the heart of evil, and how the Internet was leading to Armageddon.

P.S TRL, I used to be a Narina fan, and I was on a Narina board espousing "left wing" views such as the validity of Carbon dating and Al Gore was not crazy, or the idea an Asian boy be allowed to date a white girl. I earned a ban hammer for that. I don't think a member of the "religious conservatives" would be banned for the same reason here on animesuki.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

That's called deception, like a certain Whitehouse email that was maliciously edited to make Obama look bad.

And it is an art. Ever read Kevin Mitnick's The Art of Deception? It highlights how it is nothing more than a tool, and it cuts both ways.