2010-11-05, 17:10 | Link #5061 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
|
Quote:
This leap in logic has no fucking starting point.
__________________
|
|
2010-11-05, 17:11 | Link #5062 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Age: 36
|
Quote:
The Red must be taken literally. To quote: The red only tells the truth. The red truth is simply truth, and there is no need to provide evidence, proof, or room for a counter-argument!! You can't trust anything, you can't trust any words that aren't red...!! Quote:
Quote:
Notice that there are never any red truths spoken about the meta world. It doesn't hold up to any sort of logic or consistency, and can have any sort of magic: it's a hypothetical world of the author's imagination. About the win condition: Battler has to disprove the existance of witches on the gameboard (and a very specific gameboard of that island, on those two days), not in the meta world. He's quite explicit about this. Quote:
I find it difficult to except that there is a "Rokkenjima Prime" that is a "more real" than the gameboards. They're all equally fiction, written by ryukishi07. If JK Rowling says that Dumbledore is gay, then yes, that makes Dumbledore's homosexuality an absolutely truth in the world of Harry Potter. In the same sense, everything ryukishi07 writes in red is an absolute truth in the world of Umineko. Quote:
This should be in blue, not red. |
|||||
2010-11-05, 17:25 | Link #5065 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
|
Quote:
My name is Ushiromiya Battler I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice of course later Battler's identity was questioned. And Beatrice can't really be a witch she's human so Golden witch is a title Erika's title would just happen to be 'the 18th human on Rokkenjima'. When on the real Rokkenjima no 18th person ever arrived. Simple.
__________________
|
|
2010-11-05, 17:37 | Link #5066 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Age: 36
|
Quote:
Quote:
"In that case, what happens to the number of people on this island right now?" "Of course, it's a plus 1 over the previous number. But don't worry. Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.." The arrival of Furudo Erika increases the amount of people on the island by one. Independently of the "18th human" statement, that implies that Erika is a person who existed on the island. The red truth about Battler's name and his biological heritage don't contradict each other. He can be legally named Ushiromiya Battler, and still not be Rudolf's son. When kids are adopted, they're still allowed to use the last name of their foster parents. Regarding "I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice:" If she spoke it on the meta world, she might still be a witch in the meta world but not in the gameboard of "reality." |
||
2010-11-05, 17:40 | Link #5067 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
|
Quote:
That's seriously no different than admitting you beleive she's a witch. You're on the wrong track.
__________________
|
|
2010-11-05, 17:43 | Link #5068 | |||||||||||
The True Culprit
|
Quote:
1) The Red only tells the truth. This is true, but it doesn't mean it's absolute. It's just that Beatrice can't lie in it, and she can make truthful statements about a work of fiction. Besides, this is circular reasoning. It's like saying the Bible is absolutely true because the Bible says so. If you decide to trust the Bible, sure. The Red only has validity because everyone has agreed to give it such. 2) This doesn't really add anything. 3) We know this isn't EXACTLY true. The Gold and the White have all been used to reliably tell us truthful things. It's just that these do not carry a guarantee like the Red does. Quote:
Quote:
I say it doesn't, because the Meta-World scenes are demonstratably scenes in a written work of fiction just like the Gameboard, and Beatrice is not a witch. I mean, sure, I guess you're right in that within the narrative of the Meta-World, magic happens, like how magic happens in Middle Earth, but that would only be conceding the point of mine that the Red Truths can apply to fictions without speaking about Objective Reality, or you could say that Magic is something else, such as "stage magic", but that's also conceding the same point of the Red Truth not having to be literal so long as it is still true. The Red cannot always be literal all the time. It's not possible. Quote:
This is my Golden Land A world where magic that isn't mine certainly cannot exist Don't leave me all alone!!! The witch before your eyes stole away my whole family, even you, Onii-chan...! Finish her...!! Then, take your family back!! And then, .........come home to me......!!! You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you. It's possible to show a different truth by using a different interpretation!! hi-hhihihhihihihihihihihihihihi Come on, Ushiromiya Battler, kneel *cackle*cackle*cackle*hihihihihihihihihihihyahyahy ahhahhahahahaha-hhahahahhahhahhahhahhahhahha There's a few Red Truths on the Meta-World for you. I also threw in, as a bonus, some Red Truths that were either requests, laughter, or other statements that literally have no bearing on true or false one way or another, and I also chucked in some Reds that are literally impossible unless you use metaphor. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The Gameboards and probably the Meta-World are fictions written by humans. There is only ONE truth of what really happened on Rokkenjima, or else the idea of trying to uncover the truth of what happened is an absolutely fucking meaningless statement. How are we expected to deduce what really happened if there's no valid universe? Did the universe break into many timelines for two days, then merged back together for Ange's future, or some nonsense? Quote:
Though it's funny you should talk about us arguing about what is the truth subjectively, because that's exactly what we're supposed to be doing. Did the thing about multiple truths and catboxes not get through? Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Either way, your line of thinking won't hold up by the very Red Truth you hold in such high regard.
__________________
|
|||||||||||
2010-11-05, 17:58 | Link #5069 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Age: 36
|
Quote:
"Forgers who know of this accident often theorize that she drifted onto Rokkenjima...." - Therefore, she didn't drift onto Rokkenjima. This has the form of: "Forgers often theorize that [X]" - Therefore, [not X]. Which leads to an abundance of logical absurdities "Forgers often theorize that people died on Rokkenjima." - Therefore, nobody died on Rokkenjima. "Forgers often theorize that Rokkenjima is an island." - Therefore, Rokkenjima isn't an island. Secoondly, her life tips say that: "On October 4, 1986, she drifted to Rokkenjima. The Ushiromiya family welcomed her as a guest. She managed to drift to the island unharmed..." How do you determine which has precedence over the other? Thirdly, these TIPS aren't the red truth and there's no way of know if they're simply misdirection/lies or not. |
|
2010-11-05, 18:06 | Link #5070 | |||
The True Culprit
|
Quote:
Unless you want to argue that someone with a psychic connection to the Meta World, the ability to say the Red Truth in the real world, the abilities of super hearing and crap like that existed on Rokkenjima, those Red Truths can only apply to a fiction. Quote:
"Forgers theorize X" so X isn't true, does not mean "forgers theorize Y", so Y isn't true. I don't know if you know this, but people can theorize things and be correct. Shocking, I know. Quote:
__________________
|
|||
2010-11-05, 18:15 | Link #5071 | ||||
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
|
Quote:
Besides the author confirmed the Rokkenjima explosion part of that TIP and backed it up with evidence many readers already knew about in an interview. That TIP is therefore more reliable than the former. Quote:
the last one isn't even a theory in the world of Umineko it's fact. These things have nothing to do with one another. They are different issues and can be treated as such. Quote:
Quote:
What does this quote mean to you? "If you do love me, you must see my words as red truth, right?" -Lambdadelta
__________________
|
||||
2010-11-05, 18:19 | Link #5072 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Of course Erika increases the count by one... in only those stories where she exists.
So does the magic half-elephant man with whooping cough who parachutes onto the island from a crashing airplane in the Rokkenjima story I just made up in my head. The fact that he exists in this Rokkenjima story does not mean he exists in all Rokkenjima stories, let alone that he existed on the "real" Rokkenjima, if there was one (well, if there was one in the intermediate "reality" layer, as there obviously was no such place or event in our reality). Erika is free to exist in any story in which she is permitted to exist. Lambda essentially alters a premise of the game in order to permit it to happen. This expands the set of stories into which Rokkenjima tales can be spun. But nothing prevents Beatrice, or indeed anyone with the proper knowledge, from speaking about something else entirely, so long as no one calls them out on it. Watch, I'll use magic right in front of you: The magic half-elephant man with whooping cough parachuted onto Rokkenjima from a crashing airplane! Everyone saw him clearly land in the rose garden! But that was an illusion... he never landed there, because he can fly! While he was flying, he teleported to another planet, which is why he does not exist anywhere in this world, whether on Rokkenjima or not! Indeed, in this world he never existed in the first place! But of course, he really does exist. Battler said this was going to piss off the purists. Now you see why.
__________________
|
2010-11-05, 18:28 | Link #5073 |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
|
It is nice and dandy to have a discussion going on, but I would like to remind all of you that no matter what, everyone is entitled to their opinions.
Things are: some members behaviour and speech style are dangerously crawling towards flame war and whatnot. You may disagree with anyone, but please do not start going all personal or sarcastic for the hell of it. Any comment judged inappropriate will be deleted, along with a penalty if needed.
__________________
|
2010-11-05, 18:40 | Link #5075 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
|
Quote:
Of course it is easy to say "the gameboards are fake stories so they are irrelevant" but in my opinion it's as easy as saying "the author is trolling us so whatever he narrates can be ignored completely". So in the end in my opinion whether the gameboards are true or fiction it doesn't change a thing, if you trust the author you'll believe you can use the information given to reach the truth regardless.
__________________
|
|
2010-11-05, 18:42 | Link #5076 |
The True Culprit
|
What Jan-Poo said. Assuming that everything is true as presented only muddles the issue more, in my opinion. The validity of the gameboards doesn't matter; regardless of their content, they were given, in-universe and out-universe, by an author who wants us to discern the truth. Admitting that the gameboards are fictions even within Umineko's universe is not "distrusting the author."
__________________
|
2010-11-05, 18:43 | Link #5077 |
18782+18782=37564
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: InterWebs
|
Dully, I don't see where this discussion is going because if we start doubting the authenticity of red truths then there is really no point in arguing Umineko's truth because EVERYTHING is allowed to be truth, thus the Schrodinger's Cat Metaphor.
To me, it sounds like you guys are saying: "Umineko no Naku Koro ni" is a fiction. There is no Ushiromiya Kinzo, Krauss, Natsuhi, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, George, Jessica, Battler, or Maria in real life. The servants Gohda, Kumasawa, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, and the dotor Nanjo doesn't exist in real life. There is no Rokkenjima in real life. There is no Rokkenjima Incident in real life. The red truth should only be applicable only in each episode they were presented, and they should be the truth for their corresponding gameboard. This way the red truth can stand by itself and shouldn't defy logic. The red truth should be a clue or restraints for us to find out what happened in Rokkenjima-Prime, but strictly in this sense, even the whites are clues on what happened in Rokkenjima-Prime. And I thought weyou guys established this sometime ago.
__________________
|
2010-11-05, 18:50 | Link #5078 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Quote:
So is Ushiromiya Kinzo, Krauss, Natsuhi, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, George, Jessica, Battler, and Maria existed. The servants Gohda, Kumasawa, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, and the doctor Nanjo existed. Rokkenjima is a real island. The Rokkenjima Incident occurred in 1986.
__________________
|
|
2010-11-05, 18:52 | Link #5079 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
|
Well I'll start by saying that no one here doubts the authenticity of all red truths. We doubt that they are universal for every game and we doubt that they can be authentic without their game's context. (unless the context is that it applies to all games) No we use the red truth like Knox's rules as a crutch for thinking that is open to interpretation.
There are people who doubt that the red truth Nanjo is not a murderer is universal. Does that mean they doubt the authenticity of the red truth? No they doubt that Nanjo can't be a murderer in all games. I don't agree with that opinion, but it's a valid one to have. We trust the white text to be able to give us a sea of hints that the red truth cannot. Because while the red truth can give you direction it is not an absolute truth of the story detector. You need to actually read the story and look past the red to get it.
__________________
|
2010-11-05, 19:06 | Link #5080 |
The True Culprit
|
What they said. And all I'm personally saying is that one can't assume that all Red Truths have to be 100% literal, or that if a Red Truth is stated, it must be apply to an actual Real World instead of a fictional Gameboard.
Take, for instance, the Red Truth, You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you. We pretty much know for a fact that the bomb explosion is what's being referred to here, but Beatrice ("I") made the statement. Does this mean Battler's been arguing with a bomb, this whole time? Does this mean Beatrice's ghost is going to turn on the bomb? Of course not. It's allegorical, even though it's totally true. I don't understand why some people have such difficulty with this. I really, sincerely don't get what the problem is.
__________________
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|