2020 US Presidential Election Discussion (primary & general)

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

This is not to be dismissed lightly.

Will Texas secede? Of course not. But once you open the door to approving that, pretty much anything is on the table. Having one of the two major political parties become literally an anti-democracy party, willing to brook secession or violent revolution rather than accept majority rule, the system itself is under existential threat.

Seriously, what rock have you been under? I hear about demands of secession like every other year, or at the least every time a Democrat is elected President. You can't call it "opening the door" the twentieth time (I don't know how many times it's been proposed, might be less, wouldn't be surprised if it's much more). That said, I don't know I'd go so far as to say that either party is really "anti-democracy". This century, I can't say I've found any President we've had to be really good at the job, and every one has brought more division, with people on the "other" party declaring that this is proof Democracy is wrong or suggesting creating a new country or other such nonsense. Thing is, this is generally mostly the minority on both sides, with the majority in the middle just wishing people would stop throwing fits and hating one another. Sadly, the more connected we get the easier it becomes for the rabid idiots to shout all the sane ones down, making them sound like the "voice" of the majority and inspiring the politicians to be even bigger idiots than before.

[Guardian Enzo]

You're living in a fantasy world if you believe this is just more of the same, or in any way normal.

[The Green One]

Well Enzo just what are you proposing then hmmm? That the rest of the country strike first? Impose sanctions like they're some sort of enemy country? Invade? Arrest on words but not actions? Last time I checked it's not a crime to speak of rebellion. While it's morally disgusting to cry out about seceding because they don't like the way the election went that doesn't give the rest of the country the green light to go Hammer of God because they don't like what a group of citizens are saying. That's just an ugly road to go down as the empty threats a group of people in Texas are making. IF and only IF they go through with it, then we'll talk.

[SeijiSensei]

Some people might need to prosecuted for sedition.

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

18 U.S. Code § 2384. Seditious conspiracy

The "by force" phrase may limit the applicability of this law to the current circumstances, at least until the Proud Boys decide they're done "standing down."

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by The Green One

Well Enzo just what are you proposing then hmmm? That the rest of the country strike first? Impose sanctions like they're some sort of enemy country? Invade? Arrest on words but not actions? Last time I checked it's not a crime to speak of rebellion. While it's morally disgusting to cry out about seceding because they don't like the way the election went that doesn't give the rest of the country the green light to go Hammer of God because they don't like what a group of citizens are saying. That's just an ugly road to go down as the empty threats a group of people in Texas are making. IF and only IF they go through with it, then we'll talk.

See the post above this one. And wake the hell up.

[Magin]

This administration has proven one thing: no matter what might be written, especially if it's somewhat obscure... it only has power if people are willing to enforce what's written. And that enforcement hasn't happen in at least a decade. After all, Trump should've never even been President in the first place if they enforced the Emoluments Clause.

There's an ugly reality of how things could go back to "normal" that no one wants to talk about. Your hints are, what defined a lot of the 20th century, mostly the first half; and what happens when a deer population becomes overbloated?

It's a dark answer that you might think should never be advocated for, but... well, I'm starting to think that while we're not completely done with it, the Golden Age of humanity is coming to an end.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

And as if on cue, the Texas GOP has issued a statement calling for secession.

Jut a reminder, Brexit started as an easy exit for politicians to not face a real problem, because they thought "there is no way in hell we will secede from the EU". Let it fester for a decade, just wait.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

See the post above this one. And wake the hell up.

That post doesn't talk of secession, for starters, it talks of plotting against the government itself. Secession is a separate matter and a more complicated one.

And no, this really is not that different from how things have been in the past. Every time something happens people say those exact same lines "this is nothing like what's happened before, if you think otherwise you're dumb or delusional". And frankly it almost never is any different.

[The Green One]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

See the post above this one. And wake the hell up.

You're the one who's dreaming if you think everyone else besides the rebels will seamlessly band together and agree on how to deal with the potential seceders. Have you paid no attention at all to the Government's behavior with each other these last four years? The fact that you can't understand this is disturbing in itself.

Hell the election itself, you have people openly making threats to the people doing their jobs in the election and even intruding at their homes.

Does anyone do anything against these threats of bodily harm?

Nope. Not a damn thing. What in the hell makes you think this latest episode of the shit show is going to be anything less than 24 hours of the exact same thing.

You wake the hell up.

[OH&S]

[monsta666]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

That post doesn't talk of secession, for starters, it talks of plotting against the government itself. Secession is a separate matter and a more complicated one.

And no, this really is not that different from how things have been in the past. Every time something happens people say those exact same lines "this is nothing like what's happened before, if you think otherwise you're dumb or delusional". And frankly it almost never is any different.

Whilst I would agree with you that the comment: "this time is different" is an overused expression the act of a sitting president actively challenging the outcome of the election is unprecendented. At least in modern US history. In that sense this is a different situation to what we have seen before.

Yes there was the challenge in 2000 between Al Gore and Bush Jr. that ended up going to the courts but that situation was different as that involved only one state (Florida) and was a very closely contested state. In that case the charge put forward was not about the legitimacy of the election (as Trump is doing today) but was one that wanted to verify the true count in the state which really could have swung with a recount (unlike now when the margins are beyond the margins of error in a recount). The ramifications of this election is a significant number of people will question the legitmacy of this election and possibly future elections which has never been an issue until today.

It is important when looking back at history that whilst many events do indeed repeat themselves and are therefore not a first there are times when new events occur that cannot easily be found in the past. This is one of these times. Saying all that I do not believe there will be a major long-term impact with what happened today; Biden will win the election and become president. Four years is a long time and there a lot of time for people to forget what happened today particularly if the Democrats were to win the election in 2024 (I doubt Trump would win that election).

[coded321]

If reoublican states want to seceed, they can go right ahead with that. Good luck and good riddance.
In the end they will never do that because seceeding will only hurt them and their corporate interests/donors. They're just riling up the base. Conservatives wish they were as violent as they claim liberals are.

[Guardian Enzo]

sedition noun
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se·​di·​tion | \ si-ˈdi-shən \
Definition of sedition
: incitement of resistance to or insurrection against lawful authority


§2384. Seditious conspiracy
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 808; July 24, 1956, ch. 678, §1, 70 Stat. 623; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, §330016(1)(N), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2148.)

[Sheba]

A cult of personality

https://www.newsweek.com/pro-trump-r...perdue-1554354


Coming from the bunch that called the others sheeples, its fucking rich.

[coded321]

Here in super democratic California, we had the state gop blatantly committing election fraud in broad daylight. All the state ag did was give them a stern statement and finger wagging. Recent history has shown, while the calls from the gop regarding secession is worrisome and possibly illegal, the government, federal or state, isn't going to do anything serious about it until its too late, assuming of course the Gop actually goes through with secession.

It would honestly be shocking if the Republicans were actually held accountable for their calls for secession.

[The Green One]

They want conflict, they want the situation to escalate. They want to be able to cry to their base, "Look! See? They're trying to oppress us and tell us how to think. They're not just stealing the election, they're stealing our free speech. See? We're RIGHT." They'll happily be martyrs to the cause. A lot of times there isn't action be taken because they don't want to escalate the situation further.

[Johnny Dy]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

sedition noun

It always sounded to me like "sadistic", or that it somehow came from it.
Yep, that's what those in power would like to call it.
To my mind there should be no power, but every citizen having equal power to whomever.

[cyberdemon]

Finally time for the electoral vote. I wonder how many faithless electors we can expect. Would be funny if Trump lost votes because of his behavior after banking on them

[The Green One]

Well it's unlikely any faithless electors will vote for the opposite person. They'll likely give it to the third party person that nobody actually pays attention to.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by The Green One

Well it's unlikely any faithless electors will vote for the opposite person. They'll likely give it to the third party person that nobody actually pays attention to.

Yeah that’s why I say trump loses votes rather than Biden gaining votes. They’ll likely be too scared of retaliation though to do that