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Old 2012-10-11, 22:13   Link #30821
GabrieliosP
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Also, the gameboards are written by Yasu or Tohya. They do not show the truth of prime.

While the Ushiromiya family might not have the closest bonds of all... they wouldn't agree so easily in helping Yasu when bribed like in Our Confessions. It is a fictional story, so the author may take some liberties. As AuraTwilight said only Nanjo is shown to have been bribed. So, even when being offered money, most of them would hesitate and probably even refuse helping Yasu.
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Old 2012-10-11, 22:23   Link #30822
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What is the solution to Episode 2's third twilight? Shannon, Gohda, Kuwasama, Genji, and Nanjo are all in the servants room after finding "Kanon".

Nanjo and Kuwasama die. Genji, Godha, and Shannon return to the rest of the people. The fantasy scene shows Kanon being evaporated by a spider web by them before they return and after the two deaths. If this is the work of shkannon then why would Gohda not say anything to the family? Or immediately try to escape or dash out if they (shkannon and presumbly Genji who knows of shkannon) let him live?
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Old 2012-10-11, 22:46   Link #30823
GabrieliosP
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Gohda was more than probably an accomplice and was told to speak as if something fantasy-like had really happened.
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Old 2012-10-11, 22:50   Link #30824
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Originally Posted by pikablu View Post
Also people use ShKanon to explain Kanon’s disappearance from the games. I’m just saying that there other explanations for how the Kanon can go missing.

The bit about EP8 – this is such a red herring, this red only applies to Bern’s game and not the core question arcs. If this did apply so literally then one could raise an eyebrow at Battler being the culprit.
Ah, but it's not a red herring. That red may or may not apply only to that game, but Lambadelta says that that is what happens to Kanon at any time that Shannon dies. "Well, I thought it'd be rude, so I kept quiet about it, but that's what happens when Shannon dies." = she's also talking about the earlier games, not just Bern's game there. Can you explain why she said that, using your theory?

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Originally Posted by pikablu View Post
The bit about EP7 – this only applies to EP7 again, Shannon going BSoD in one moment does not prove ShKanon for everything. Yes Shannon = Kanon in that kakera but that doesn’t mean anything in the wider context.
Why doesn't it mean anything? I'm disappointed: that's a really inadequate response which seems to me to boil down to "OK, Shkanon is proven beyond a doubt in this one ep, but it doesn't mean anything, because, uh, I say so." Really? I don't think your theory can be correct, but I'm responding to you seriously, so please don't resort to a "because I say so" level of reasoning.

EP7is the game where two kakera (one with Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice, and the other with Lion) are sewn together so that Will can solve all of Beatrice's mysteries. It's the ep which is described on the title screen of the game as the one where "the cold, hard truth will be revealed". It's the one where Yasu is revealed and her backstory is gone into. It absolutely must have relevance to the games as a whole. If it is irrelevant, why is it there?

Ryukishi has said about ep 7 that
Quote:
At the end of EP6, they said "we want to have an answer session", so I think that it will include backstory elements that haven't yet appeared in the story, as well as the inner thoughts of various people, making for something that borders on the level of a confession.
He's also said that
Quote:
EP7 was the heart and soul of all the hints and answers. And EP8 is something like an afterword to round up the story.
It's really not good enough to simply say that EP7 has no relevance to the rest of the story and not give a reason for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikablu View Post
5) And actually their dreams are not contradicting but extremely similar; don’t both just want to be with their love? I don’t think that it’s specified WHERE they would have to be.
It is stated. I'll get back to that in a second. (And I'll get back to the rest of your arguments if I have time and nobody else addresses them.) Firstly...

How can you say that their dreams are not contradicting when Shannon and Kanon themselves describe their dreams as contradicting, as in the quote I gave you earlier?

You really, really need to re-read Ep 6, because Ep 6 makes it extremely clear that if Shannon wins, she will leave the island and Kanon will quit and leave the island "for all eternity", and if Jessica looks for him it will "be in vain". If Kanon wins, then he will stay on the island and work on his relationship with Jessica, but Shannon and George will break up.

Quote:
Beatrice the Elder: "If you give up on the miracle of magic and leave it to Shannon and George,......they will be joined and leave the island......After that, Kanon will leave the island as well. That is an unavoidable fate."

Beatrice the Younger: "Th, ......then what if they can obtain the miracle of magic...?"

Beatrice the Elder: "Of course, Kanon will remain on the island, by Jessica's side for all time.......He will probably start learning music with Jessica as she wished for.......How their relationship will progress afterwards is a matter for the two lovers. They may deepen their relationship slowly all by themselves, as Jessica wanted..."

Shannon: "......However,...if that happens, George-san and I will not be joined."

Kanon: ".........We must fight this fate by betting our futures and our happiness."

Jessica: "A, ......are you kidding me...?! What the hell...?! So if we are joined, the other pair will split apart?! What kind of demon's game is this?!!"
Quote:
Shannon:"......Please forgive me, Milady.......I am determined not to flinch in my resolve..........Even if I know......that sticking to my feelings......means ending your loving relationship, Milady."
Quote:
Kanon: "I......want to start a new life with you, Milady......Even if that life.......means crushing Nee-san's happiness......I will not falter..."
This and more is why, basically, your theory of Kanon and Shannon taking on the other's hopes and dreams and whatnot is really in trouble, because over and over again it's hammered in that their dreams are mutually exclusive and only one can come true.

I'm afraid your argument for them taking on the other's dreams is not at all clear, and your evidence appears to be just that they knew what the other one's dreams were, which is not really satisfactory. Can you provide, say, evidence in the form of quotes from the series to support your argument?
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Old 2012-10-12, 05:47   Link #30825
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And even if it's just a mistake, you can't change the author's interpretation based on a mistake
I posted a much neater interpretation of this, which was unfortunately cut down by Lamba stating in red the number of people in this game was the same as previous games, but plus Erika.


Quote:
See for yourself…when Battler comes in, Shannon and Kanon are right in front of him. Also happens in the anime version check out EP8 – II-III. If the VN shows something different (I can’t remember and I’ve lost my data), then I’ll be fine to budge on this point.
Have a look at that scene again. We see Shannon and Kanon when Battler is a blur in the door, when he comes closer, notice who is never seen again? It was quite clever drawing on the part of the mangaka (or whatever they are called)
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Old 2012-10-12, 10:24   Link #30826
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikablu View Post
@Drifloon
EP2 – 1st Twilight, tbh I have forgotten what it was like in the VN but in the manga and anime Rosa tells Shannon and Genji to go AFTER she has seen the bodies. Check it out:

See for yourself…when Battler comes in, Shannon and Kanon are right in front of him. Also happens in the anime version check out EP8 – II-III. If the VN shows something different (I can’t remember and I’ve lost my data), then I’ll be fine to budge on this point.
Just (re)watched the anime to check this.

Anime: As soon as Rosa sees the corpses, she sends Genji and Shannon to go to Kinzo. They are shown leaving the chapel. Moments later, Maria, Jessica, Battler and George arrive in the chapel.

Manga: Battler never sees Shannon+Kanon together. They appear together before Battler arrives, not after.
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Last edited by Daniel E.; 2012-10-16 at 03:06.
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Old 2012-10-12, 10:52   Link #30827
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikablu View Post
EP2 – 1st Twilight, tbh I have forgotten what it was like in the VN but in the manga and anime Rosa tells Shannon and Genji to go AFTER she has seen the bodies. Check it out:

See for yourself…when Battler comes in, Shannon and Kanon are right in front of him. Also happens in the anime version check out EP8 – II-III. If the VN shows something different (I can’t remember and I’ve lost my data), then I’ll be fine to budge on this point.
Yes and no. We see that Shannon and Kanon are both present but, when Battler gets in and can look inside, only Kanon is shown and he tries to stop Jessica. Shannon is nowhere to be seen, which, in itself, can be a hint there's no Shannon in the room and we won't see Shannon again till this pic when she's talking with Kinzo

whom we know is dead.

Then she will be witnessed again by Battler here:

So it's likely the illusion she and Kanon are in front of Battler when Battler entered in the chapel is merely a 'narrative trick' for the readers. It's never confirmed once Battler opened the door he witnessed Shannon and Kanon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikablu View Post
EP3 – 1st Twilight, yes fine I agree there is a loop hole now for Shannon to jump down to chapel (or vice versa, judging by the fact that it is on the 1st floor) BUT…
I think the room is actually at what in my country is called ground floor, though I seem to remember that either in English or in American, landfloor is called first floor.

Quote:
first floor
noun
1.
the ground floor of a building.
2.
the floor above the ground floor of a building.
So there's no need for Shannon to jump.
In fact it was said that she was placed there because in this way she would be the first to be discovered and this means she would be in an easy to reach place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikablu View Post
@GoldenLand
My use for Knox’s 8th is not to disprove Shannon = Kanon but to eradicate any sort of confusion about EP5. There is a contradiction about the solution in EP5 and nothing about Erika’s position or ShKanon’s positions were discussed relative to each other to allow Erika to see one but not the other. From the way it was put it actually seemed like she was looking at everyone, so looking at Kanon and Shannon at the same time.
Actually an human sight is pretty limited so you can't really look at more than 10 people at the same time unless you're far from them and they're close. Otherwise you'll have to move your gaze all around.

However it's stated Erika is behaving properly and I doubt continuously look in each direction can be labelled as normal. She would look paranoid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikablu View Post
Also people use ShKanon to explain Kanon’s disappearance from the games. I’m just saying that there other explanations for how the Kanon can go missing.
Personally I find Kanon's disappearance as a hint and not as a proof... at least till EP 8. When Bern states with Shannon's death Kanon has to disappear no explanation given on the way or how it's pretty hard to think he just disappeared because he hid or was killed and hidden.

His disappearence is clearly implied to have a better purpose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikablu View Post
The bit about EP7 – this only applies to EP7 again, Shannon going BSoD in one moment does not prove ShKanon for everything. Yes Shannon = Kanon in that kakera but that doesn’t mean anything in the wider context.
If that's the case Ep 7 would be meaningless. The whole EP points as ShKannon as culprit. If it's meaningless the Ep loses its purpose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikablu View Post
My Own Theory (The Pikablu Theory hehe):
1) Ok if Kanon and Shannon are fully separate people, why can’t Beatrice participate?
I'm not sure what you mean. Partecipate to what? The love duel? But Beato take part to it... as long as she has Battler around. The love duel is a love duel for couples.
As soon as Battler loses himself in a logic error apparently her chances to win the love trial were judged to be 0. Considering Yasu never actively did something to win Battler's love as long as he wasn't on Rokkenjima this is a metaphorical representation of how Yasu 'gave up'.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pikablu View Post
2) Couldn’t it be that each couple LACKS SOMETHING and thus only one can fulfil their love? Rather than being about if 1 wins then the other 2 lose? There is no mention in an actual contradiction of love between their respective matches. There is definitely evidence of a lack of confidence in both Kanon and Shannon.
Why the fact that one of the two gaining confidence should mean the other never will and his love will fail and he'll disappear?
Couldn't they both find confidence by supporting each other instead tahn destroying each other's dream?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikablu View Post
4) My evidence for Kanon and Shannon taking up each other’s dreams? Well the fact that they are extremely close and know what the other’s dreams are. The EP6 duel illustrates this too that Kanon disappears because he dies (yes it could be a personality death but equally as possible is that it is metaphorically transferring ideas between 2 different people)…please tell me if I haven’t explained that well because it’s important for my argument.
Honestly it doesn't sound logic. Even if they know each other dreams they don't take them up. Shannon doesn't decide to stay on the island with Jessica in Kanon's place, she leaves with George.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikablu View Post
5) And actually their dreams are not contradicting but extremely similar; don’t both just want to be with their love? I don’t think that it’s specified WHERE they would have to be.
I think the problem is more with WHO they wanted to be, though Shannon definitely wanted to leave the island.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikablu View Post
if you need to buy off people, and we know money is a powerful incentive.
Our confession states clearly that Natsuhi was blackmailed.
Genji is loyal to Yasu as the heir to Kinzo and Beato.
Nanjo has a sick daughter and might need money to cure her.
It could be he was also blackmailed as he did things that could be judged as questionable the main one being he knew Kinzo was having sex with Beato 2 and never tattled him out and then he took part to hide Yasu's identity, which can be labelled as sort of kidnapping as she was taken away by her father... who should be sent to jail but that's another matter.
Not mentioning that apparently there weren't records about Yasu's birth and I've the feeling this isn't legal.

Even if Yasu might not have proofs for all this, if she were to tattle it out it could ruin his reputation and cause him to lose his job.

In Our Confession Kumasawa is said to be in because she believed it was a game for which she would be paid. She apparently doesn't know people are being killed for real but think they're just covered in make up.

Likely Gohda thinks the same.

Krauss was equally blackmailed.

Jessica & George in Ep 5 likely believed they were only making a joke or playing a game.

Maria seems to believe everything Beato says so if Beato says everyone is going to be revived she'll go with it.

The other siblings are likely either blackmailed, bribed or lead to think it's all an innocent game, at least at the beginning.

Last edited by Daniel E.; 2012-10-16 at 03:05. Reason: Don't link to that site here!
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Old 2012-10-12, 11:19   Link #30828
Renall
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If I were Erika though, it wouldn't be that unusual to look at all the people who show up in the room. I mean, she's never met some of them before, it would not be unusual to notice them.

One way or another, that one scene is the sticky point in everything, but since we're never going to be told how any of that stuff actually functions, we'll probably never know what the intended resolution to the problem (one way or the other) was supposed to be.
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Old 2012-10-12, 13:33   Link #30829
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I really wish KEIYA had asked about that scene at some point. Ryukishi was really unusually willing to plainly state the intended solutions to several mysteries during that interview. I doubt we'll ever get something like that again.
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Old 2012-10-12, 23:16   Link #30830
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Quote:
Apparently there is this theory about Shannon and Kanon being the same person which I guess makes sense considering the only reason I have Kanon on the list is cause of Episode 1 when he fakes his death. I don't really buy it but eh I guess it works with some cheating.
It's not a theory. It's the truth confirmed by Ryukishi himself.

Quote:
As far as Prime goes I would say Battler beat George in gaining Shannon's love so in rage George killed everyone.
Best part of your post.

Quote:
On a side note I did sorta skim the interview the author had. I see them sometimes talk about the truth behind Shannon and Kanon but is there ever a place where he confirms them being the same person?
EP6 and EP7 both confirm it. One of the best confirmations is the end of EP6, which basically says in Red that there's only 16 living humans on the island. If Shannon and Kanon aren't the same person, that'd make it 17.
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Old 2012-10-13, 00:54   Link #30831
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Thanks for posting the Our Confessions translations, Wanderer. Very interesting to see that filled in more clearly at last. Now if only we can find the missing "omitted" portions. I still remain concerned that the devil may well be in the details...
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Old 2012-10-13, 02:25   Link #30832
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Uh correct me if I'm wrong but didn't it say 17 at the end of the EP6?
It's 17th if Erika joins in
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Old 2012-10-13, 02:42   Link #30833
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That's right. Everyone Minus Erika Equals 16.
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Old 2012-10-13, 03:13   Link #30834
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Originally Posted by Ryuudou View Post
What is the solution to Episode 2's third twilight? Shannon, Gohda, Kuwasama, Genji, and Nanjo are all in the servants room after finding "Kanon".

Nanjo and Kuwasama die. Genji, Godha, and Shannon return to the rest of the people. The fantasy scene shows Kanon being evaporated by a spider web by them before they return and after the two deaths. If this is the work of shkannon then why would Gohda not say anything to the family? Or immediately try to escape or dash out if they (shkannon and presumbly Genji who knows of shkannon) let him live?
Does no one have an answer to this? I'm not finding anything with the search. It's never hinted that Gohda is an accomplice, and if he is then it's a cheap tool as he dies shortly later.
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Old 2012-10-13, 03:41   Link #30835
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It's pretty obvious Gohda is a tool when he's collaborating with Shannon's testimony, is involved in the whole fantasy run to the church and then Natsuhi's room, and is then murdered.
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Old 2012-10-13, 04:19   Link #30836
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I always had the impression that the whole thing with Kumasawa and Nanjo's deaths was faked, personally. Notice that the zombie Kanon tells them to suspect Rosa, and Genji/Gohda even start discussing measures they could take to protect themselves against her. This seems like a weird detail to include for no reason.

I think that Shannon and the others managed to convince Gohda that Rosa was a threat, and that they should fake Kumasawa and Nanjo's deaths so that they could investigate without being under Rosa's control. Obviously everyone there except Gohda knows that this isn't the real reason because they're all in on the plan. But I think that this is a more convincing reason for Gohda to lie than simply being bribed or blackmailed, because I can't really see him being able to do that if he actually knew that the two of them were dead.

Obviously, when Kumasawa and Nanjo go with Shannon to hide somewhere, she kills them, and then Genji moves the bodies later when he's "doing the rounds" before telling Battler/Rosa/Maria that he found their corpses.
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Old 2012-10-13, 04:52   Link #30837
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That actually works pretty well; Kumasawa's and Nanjo's bodies DO move, which is supposed to indicate they weren't dead then.
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Old 2012-10-13, 05:10   Link #30838
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Quote:
Originally Posted by battle22 View Post
It's 17th if Erika joins in
To be honest, I was a bit slowpoke in ep7, and thought the last red ment that Erika couldn't BE on that Island because there ARE ONLY 17 people on the Island.
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Old 2012-10-13, 06:38   Link #30839
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Not that unusual; lots of people thought that back when EP6 was out. But later episodes make it pretty clear that some kind of Shkanon interpretation was the intention.
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Old 2012-10-13, 08:37   Link #30840
Ryuudou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
It's pretty obvious Gohda is a tool when he's collaborating with Shannon's testimony, is involved in the whole fantasy run to the church and then Natsuhi's room, and is then murdered.
Doesn't that violate Knox's 2nd? Why would Gohda assist in murder? Where is this hinted? The only thing that is hinted is that Godha doesn't like Shannon/Kanon and is passive-aggressive toward "them".

Otherwise the author can do things like "all death victims assisted culprits up until the point of their death" to solve riddles which is obviously a cop-out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drilfoon
I think that Shannon and the others managed to convince Gohda that Rosa was a threat, and that they should fake Kumasawa and Nanjo's deaths so that they could investigate without being under Rosa's control. Obviously everyone there except Gohda knows that this isn't the real reason because they're all in on the plan. But I think that this is a more convincing reason for Gohda to lie than simply being bribed or blackmailed, because I can't really see him being able to do that if he actually knew that the two of them were dead.

Obviously, when Kumasawa and Nanjo go with Shannon to hide somewhere, she kills them, and then Genji moves the bodies later when he's "doing the rounds" before telling Battler/Rosa/Maria that he found their corpses.
This is an interesting solution; thank you it's probably somewhere close to what R07 intended. It's a pity we don't have much red on the circumstances of murders in the 2nd game.

Though it doesn't explain the locked room. I believe before this happened Rosa took all of the master keys and then sent the servants off together, they went to the kitchen, phantom Kanon shows up, Kuwasama and Nanjo "die", and the servants take the bodies to the servant room after the murders supposedly took place. Even if the murders didn't happen there was still a letter on the table in the servant's room when Rosa and the rest investigate. The keys to the servant room were locked in the servant room, and Rosa had the master keys.

Does this mean Rosa is also accomplice in the 2nd game? That seems very messy with way too many people involved in this if Kuwasama/Gohda/Nanjo were accomplices (according to the post below), and if the first twilight was faked or something which I've read.

Last edited by Ryuudou; 2012-10-13 at 08:53.
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