(L) Kannaduki no Miko

[The Yellow Dwarf]

Originally Posted by dreamless

I think some Chikane/yuri fanboys should just accept the fact that Souma is the perfect shounen anime kind of a male protagonist, hotblood, unconditional love, fight evil to protect his important ones, believe in love and sacrifice, etc. etc. and that's part of the reason of why Kannaduki no Miko is so fun to watch. If you want something with pure yuri and no good male characters, then Kannaduki no Miko is not for you

I resent that. I’m as much a “yuri fanboy” as an elephant is Mickey Mouse.

Okay, in order to not be a "yuri fanboy," let's put things in perspective and add Chikane in there as well. Is Souma's "love" for Himeko true or is he simply playing according to the laws of medieval chivalry to satisfy his own ego? Is Chikane truly in love with Himeko or is she so haunted by the guilt of her past life that she seeks release in atonement in the worst possible way? I won't even try to define what "love" is, maybe love is playing along with the rules of what love is supposed to be, e.g. La Traviata followed by a nice dinner in a fancy restaurant; or maybe it is a relief for the burden of past deeds regretted, e.g. because I have never had a university education I’ll make sure my children all get doctoral degrees.

Enter Chikane. Why would someone like Chikane befriend somebody as ordinary as Himeko if not because of the partially buried feelings of a past life? Even though they are barely on friendly terms (in Ep. 1, Himeko still starts by addressing her as “Miya-sama”), she already feels, although quite subconsciously, that the coming birthday would be “a special day” because Himeko would be there. Before the hilarious ending of ep. 1, the first thing that Chikane discovers on Himeko’s body is the mark of the Sun Priestess (although she herself has known about the mark on her body long before). It’s just as likely that seeing the mark triggered something that was not in the present-day Chikane’s mind. (Seeing how Chikane has been unconsciously guided by her past life to ruin the summoning ritual, this is not unlikely that her affection is deeply embedded by her past life as well.) Equally likely, Chikane and Himeko’s encounter in the school garden may be predestined by wills of the past, similar to Ep. 13.

Similarly, after Chikane’s Orochi-fication, her actions are geared simply towards a death by Himeko’s hands. To this end, she is not afraid to do terrible things to everybody, including Himeko. She does not have Himeko’s well-being in mind when she toyed and tortured her both physically and psychologically. Of course an argument could be made that everything would be “restored” once Chikane dies, but would somebody who truly loves a person want to hurt that person, so long as s/he could get away with it? The only possible solution is that Chikane, from that moment of recalling her entire past, has been obsessed by the idea of atonement, specifically, to die by Himeko’s hand. Everything she does from that point is intended only to relieve her own ego of the burdens of guilt.

Prior to the event that leads to Chikane’s sudden metamorphosis, the only factor that contributes to her dislike for Souma is her inability (in comparison to his overwhelming success) to protect Himeko. Throughout the entire series, Himeko is a person, or shall we say, an object to be protected, more or less specifically by Chikane and Souma. Yet, how happy the two are is directly related to how well they can protect Himeko, not how happy or safe Himeko is. This is most apparent in the extremely jealous and possessive Chikane, but it has its traces on Souma as well.

After that “dark and stormy night,” Souma’s source of frustration is not how traumatized Himeko is, nor is he concerned about how to help Himeko recover. The only thing on his mind is how he can defeat the Orochi, how he can “protect Himeko” from the rival mecha. Similarly, before the final battle, Souma says to Himeko that he has to tell her something but cannot until the battle is over. More importantly, he says, “this time, I will not lose.” The primary source of joy is from victory in battle – the proof that he has the power (to protect Himeko), or to put it in clichéd terms, that he “is the man”!

Martial victory is not the only victory that Souma seeks. Rewind to ep. 1, the scene where Souma, like a typical protagonist in a romantic comedy, browses through the “dating guidelines” from various boys’ magazines. The handsome brother with a resonating voice comes and tells Souma to “be himself.” But this advice has been wholesomely ignored ever since it’s been said.

Souma plays the chivalrous knight quite well in dealing with Himeko, sometimes it almost seems as if he is fighting a “battle,” vaguely reminiscent of Julien Sorel of The Red and the Black. Sure, he’s psychology is not explored nearly enough, but traces of anime dating logic is all over the place. When seeking shelter from the rain, Souma sneaks a peek of Himeko changing, but then immediately recalls the golden rules of dating, one of which says, “Thou shall not watch a girl changing,” and berates himself.

The most interesting thing happens afterwards. Souma suddenly realizes that the “perfect date” is not going to plan, that he is not playing up to the “knight in shining armor” and currently losing the battle of a good romance. So frustrated is he at not “winning” the dating game that he releases his anger on a nearby debris, much to Himeko’s surprise. He is not at all concerned about rejection from Himeko, only how well he is performing up to the popular standards of what a good date and a good boyfriend should be.

The most medieval part is of course when he requests an audience with his lady before he embarks on a quest to win her favor, in other words, before his battle with Tsubasa. What does he intend to accomplish by seeing Himeko then and there? Does he plan to lose and that is his last farewell? Of course not, he is the hot-headed mecha-pilot after all. He is, whether conscious of it or not, playing the knight who shall return victorious and pleads that it is his lady’s handkerchief which gave him the strength to defeat the dragon, or giant or Muslim “infidels,” or whatever. That’s not to say that he has absolutely no feelings for Himeko, but I feel that he is not “being himself”, as Kazuki suggested, but still following the advices from those magazines.

Souma’s fear is not rejection, for why would a “selfless” love fear rejection when it doesn’t require “acceptance” to work? The only thing Souma fears is underperformance.

Two scenes also put Souma’s firm resolve to protect Himeko as self-directed actions. In a flashback, a young Souma tells a young Himeko that if she’s not comfortable in her presumably uncle’s house, then she should come to Souma and he would protect her. In the final episodes, Souma says to Tsubasa that they are both operating under the same principle. Because of his tragic childhood and broken family, the young Souma is trying to protect others, namely Himeko, from a tragic childhood and broken family as well. He is, in a sense, trying to live up to his older brother, whom protected him with his own life.

Looking at things this way, Himeko is just an object for both Chikane and Souma to satisfy their own egos, for them both to make peace with themselves and find resolutions to their own heartaches and problems. I would just like to say, finally, that this is not a post “bashing” either Souma or Chikane. Characters with strengths and flaws are better than characters without them. Cynical people say that all love is ultimately self-directed, and well, I’m not sure if I’m a cynic yet.

[DeuceTrick]

Very through analysis. Either you are a very perceptive person, or you have far too much time on your hands.

I'm a little simpler about it: Both Souma and Chikane love Himeko. Souma feels his love either is or has a chance of being requited, so he does the hero thing. Chikane feels her love can never be requited, so she chooses to die and ultimately save Himeko, rather than to live in agony. Arguing about atonement and gender roles just makes things so... complex.

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by The Yellow Dwarf

I resent that. I’m as much a “yuri fanboy” as an elephant is Mickey Mouse.

Okay, in order to not be a "yuri fanboy," let's put things in perspective and add Chikane in there as well. Is Souma's "love" for Himeko true or is he simply playing according to the laws of medieval chivalry to satisfy his own ego? Is Chikane truly in love with Himeko or is she so haunted by the guilt of her past life that she seeks release in atonement in the worst possible way? I won't even try to define what "love" is, maybe love is playing along with the rules of what love is supposed to be, e.g. La Traviata followed by a nice dinner in a fancy restaurant; or maybe it is a relief for the burden of past deeds regretted, e.g. because I have never had a university education I’ll make sure my children all get doctoral degrees.

Enter Chikane. Why would someone like Chikane befriend somebody as ordinary as Himeko if not because of the partially buried feelings of a past life? Even though they are barely on friendly terms (in Ep. 1, Himeko still starts by addressing her as “Miya-sama”), she already feels, although quite subconsciously, that the coming birthday would be “a special day” because Himeko would be there. Before the hilarious ending of ep. 1, the first thing that Chikane discovers on Himeko’s body is the mark of the Sun Priestess (although she herself has known about the mark on her body long before). It’s just as likely that seeing the mark triggered something that was not in the present-day Chikane’s mind. (Seeing how Chikane has been unconsciously guided by her past life to ruin the summoning ritual, this is not unlikely that her affection is deeply embedded by her past life as well.) Equally likely, Chikane and Himeko’s encounter in the school garden may be predestined by wills of the past, similar to Ep. 13.

Similarly, after Chikane’s Orochi-fication, her actions are geared simply towards a death by Himeko’s hands. To this end, she is not afraid to do terrible things to everybody, including Himeko. She does not have Himeko’s well-being in mind when she toyed and tortured her both physically and psychologically. Of course an argument could be made that everything would be “restored” once Chikane dies, but would somebody who truly loves a person want to hurt that person, so long as s/he could get away with it? The only possible solution is that Chikane, from that moment of recalling her entire past, has been obsessed by the idea of atonement, specifically, to die by Himeko’s hand. Everything she does from that point is intended only to relieve her own ego of the burdens of guilt.

Prior to the event that leads to Chikane’s sudden metamorphosis, the only factor that contributes to her dislike for Souma is her inability (in comparison to his overwhelming success) to protect Himeko. Throughout the entire series, Himeko is a person, or shall we say, an object to be protected, more or less specifically by Chikane and Souma. Yet, how happy the two are is directly related to how well they can protect Himeko, not how happy or safe Himeko is. This is most apparent in the extremely jealous and possessive Chikane, but it has its traces on Souma as well.

After that “dark and stormy night,” Souma’s source of frustration is not how traumatized Himeko is, nor is he concerned about how to help Himeko recover. The only thing on his mind is how he can defeat the Orochi, how he can “protect Himeko” from the rival mecha. Similarly, before the final battle, Souma says to Himeko that he has to tell her something but cannot until the battle is over. More importantly, he says, “this time, I will not lose.” The primary source of joy is from victory in battle – the proof that he has the power (to protect Himeko), or to put it in clichéd terms, that he “is the man”!

Martial victory is not the only victory that Souma seeks. Rewind to ep. 1, the scene where Souma, like a typical protagonist in a romantic comedy, browses through the “dating guidelines” from various boys’ magazines. The handsome brother with a resonating voice comes and tells Souma to “be himself.” But this advice has been wholesomely ignored ever since it’s been said.

Souma plays the chivalrous knight quite well in dealing with Himeko, sometimes it almost seems as if he is fighting a “battle,” vaguely reminiscent of Julien Sorel of The Red and the Black. Sure, he’s psychology is not explored nearly enough, but traces of anime dating logic is all over the place. When seeking shelter from the rain, Souma sneaks a peek of Himeko changing, but then immediately recalls the golden rules of dating, one of which says, “Thou shall not watch a girl changing,” and berates himself.

The most interesting thing happens afterwards. Souma suddenly realizes that the “perfect date” is not going to plan, that he is not playing up to the “knight in shining armor” and currently losing the battle of a good romance. So frustrated is he at not “winning” the dating game that he releases his anger on a nearby debris, much to Himeko’s surprise. He is not at all concerned about rejection from Himeko, only how well he is performing up to the popular standards of what a good date and a good boyfriend should be.

The most medieval part is of course when he requests an audience with his lady before he embarks on a quest to win her favor, in other words, before his battle with Tsubasa. What does he intend to accomplish by seeing Himeko then and there? Does he plan to lose and that is his last farewell? Of course not, he is the hot-headed mecha-pilot after all. He is, whether conscious of it or not, playing the knight who shall return victorious and pleads that it is his lady’s handkerchief which gave him the strength to defeat the dragon, or giant or Muslim “infidels,” or whatever. That’s not to say that he has absolutely no feelings for Himeko, but I feel that he is not “being himself”, as Kazuki suggested, but still following the advices from those magazines.

Souma’s fear is not rejection, for why would a “selfless” love fear rejection when it doesn’t require “acceptance” to work? The only thing Souma fears is underperformance.

Two scenes also put Souma’s firm resolve to protect Himeko as self-directed actions. In a flashback, a young Souma tells a young Himeko that if she’s not comfortable in her presumably uncle’s house, then she should come to Souma and he would protect her. In the final episodes, Souma says to Tsubasa that they are both operating under the same principle. Because of his tragic childhood and broken family, the young Souma is trying to protect others, namely Himeko, from a tragic childhood and broken family as well. He is, in a sense, trying to live up to his older brother, whom protected him with his own life.

Looking at things this way, Himeko is just an object for both Chikane and Souma to satisfy their own egos, for them both to make peace with themselves and find resolutions to their own heartaches and problems. I would just like to say, finally, that this is not a post “bashing” either Souma or Chikane. Characters with strengths and flaws are better than characters without them. Cynical people say that all love is ultimately self-directed, and well, I’m not sure if I’m a cynic yet.

Heh, almost every shounen anime male protagonist play the chivalrous knight in shining armor role to their love interest, and feel frustrated when they, umm, "underperform". See Flame of Recca, 3x3 EYES, Saint Seiya, Berserk, etc. etc. And my point is exactly that Souma is the perfect shounen anime kind of a male protagonist. So your detailed analysis proves exactly my point. Next maybe you should try analyse the "love" between Recca and Yanagi of Flame of Recca, and Yakumo and Pai of 3X3 EYES...

oh, and my yuri fanboy comment was not specifically directed at anyone, just to make it clear.

[The Yellow Dwarf]

Originally Posted by DeuceTrick

Very through analysis. Either you are a very perceptive person, or you have far too much time on your hands.

The latter, I assure you. My "analysis" is skin-deep and there are plenty of counter-examples for alternate views. Yours, for example. (I only thought it up as a response to Sophie's post after all; and, to be honest, there are holes all over. )

I'm not anti-Souma or anything. Chikane is far from a flawless character, but Souma is somehow made out to be like Buddha or something. I've nothing against heroes in the shounen action tradition, but where does "duty" end and "love" begin? (Okay, maybe I do have something against those elitest careerist tunnel-vision hero types, but not much.) Oh, great....now that's one pandora's box.

Originally Posted by dreamless

Heh, almost every shounen anime male protagonist play the chivalrous knight in shining armor role to their love interest, and feel frustrated when they, umm, "underperform". See Flame of Recca, 3x3 EYES, Berserk, etc. etc. And my point is exactly that Souma is the perfect shounen anime kind of a male protagonist. So your detailed analysis proves exactly my point. Next maybe you should try analyse the "love" between Recca and Yanagi of Flame of Recca, and Yakumo and Pai of 3X3 EYES...

Don't get me started on that...

Oh, sorry I misunderstood you. I thought you meant Souma is the perfect hero, which is why his love cannot be anything but the most pure, unadulterated, and selfless. My bad.

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by The Yellow Dwarf

Don't get me started on that...

Oh, sorry I misunderstood you. I thought you meant Souma is the perfect hero, which is why his love cannot be anything but the most pure, unadulterated, and selfless. My bad.

well, whether that "love" between the male and female protagonists of a shounen anime can be called "most pure, unadulterated, and selfless", IMO that's mostly a subjective, and semantical, matter, which depends on how different people interpret the meaning of "love", "pure love", "unadulterated love", and "selfless love". Although I'm not one of them, I think a lot of people like to call those "love" in shounen action anime "most pure, unadulterated and selfless love", it's all semantics I guess

[Mentar]

Whoah. That one was long. And good! Some extra sidecomments on those points where I'd like to disagree ... to start with the ending:

Originally Posted by The Yellow Dwarf

Looking at things this way, Himeko is just an object for both Chikane and Souma to satisfy their own egos, for them both to make peace with themselves and find resolutions to their own heartaches and problems. I would just like to say, finally, that this is not a post “bashing” either Souma or Chikane. Characters with strengths and flaws are better than characters without them. Cynical people say that all love is ultimately self-directed, and well, I’m not sure if I’m a cynic yet.

At least your conclusions are very cynical. And while I'd say you've made a compelling case for Souma trying to play the _role_ of the chivalrous knight, I would not see this as mutually exclusive with _really_ genuinely loving Himeko. And on Chikane, I personally think that you're off, at least in your wording. "Ego" is the wrong term to describe her motivation.

I won't even try to define what "love" is, maybe love is playing along with the rules of what love is supposed to be, e.g. La Traviata followed by a nice dinner in a fancy restaurant; or maybe it is a relief for the burden of past deeds regretted, e.g. because I have never had a university education I’ll make sure my children all get doctoral degrees.

Well, it's convenient to skip it, since it's making your position easier to defend, but it's dangerous in the end. Since you come to the final conclusion that the driving force behind Souma and Chikane is ego instead of love, this omission is a bit problematic.

Even though they are barely on friendly terms (in Ep. 1, Himeko still starts by addressing her as “Miya-sama”), she already feels, although quite subconsciously, that the coming birthday would be “a special day” because Himeko would be there.

Minor sidenote: Himeko starts with "Chikane-chan" in episode 6. Episode 1 is obviously after their meeting in 6, because in this scene Chikane invited Himeko in the rose garden where they first met.

Similarly, after Chikane’s Orochi-fication, her actions are geared simply towards a death by Himeko’s hands. To this end, she is not afraid to do terrible things to everybody, including Himeko. She does not have Himeko’s well-being in mind when she toyed and tortured her both physically and psychologically.

She did! At least if we accept her explanation in ep12, which is that she NEEDED to make Himeko hate her, and I see no reason why we shouldn't. What other motivation could she have had to act like this?

Of course an argument could be made that everything would be “restored” once Chikane dies, but would somebody who truly loves a person want to hurt that person, so long as s/he could get away with it? The only possible solution is that Chikane, from that moment of recalling her entire past, has been obsessed by the idea of atonement, specifically, to die by Himeko’s hand. Everything she does from that point is intended only to relieve her own ego of the burdens of guilt.

This is illogical. If you want to atone for sins of the past, you do not go on a rampage to sin even MORE! If she just wanted to get rid of her burden of guilt, she would NOT make it even worse. But I guess that this may not be what you wanted to say and that you're rather agreeing with me on this:

I think the reason Chikane gave makes much more sense: In order to be ABLE to atone, she had to make Himeko hate (and kill) her. It was REQUIRED to do so in order to save Himeko and die in her place. And in addition to that, I see no reason why love and care for Himeko's well-being and the wish to let HER live this time should not be important motivation factors too.

Throughout the entire series, Himeko is a person, or shall we say, an object to be protected, more or less specifically by Chikane and Souma. Yet, how happy the two are is directly related to how well they can protect Himeko, not how happy or safe Himeko is.

No. This may be true for Souma, but not for Chikane. Chikane's happiness is related to how close she can be to her "sun". She is happy when Himeko comes back crying to her arms after the first Souma date to be hugged and comforted by her ("she's coming to me"), and she is crying when Himeko comes back from the second date musing that maybe Souma is the one she's looking for after all ("I'm losing her"). And in neither scene she had to be "protected".

[Lots of convincing stuff about Souma deleted - I agree here. Good observation.]

So what remains is the "ego" issue. I sincerely doubt that this concept applies to Chikane. If it was just for her ego, she should have been happy after returning the hairclip. Her plan succeeded, the world is saved by her death, Himeko lives this time. She should have found some form of happiness or serenity in this. But when Himeko pried on and insisted on hearing the rest of the story Chikane wanted tell (her attraction to her), she crumbled in no time. And when Himeko started to explain to Chikane that her love _was_ requited after all, Chikane literally fell apart. That wasn't fake. Concerning Himeko Chikane didn't have any ego remaining at all, she was a wreck. And the coup de grace was not that Himeko "forgave" her for killing her in the past, it was Himeko's explanation why she _really_ loved Chikane too. Sealing it with a returned "Happy Birthday" kiss (I love you too) from episode 1 was a nice touch.

To sum it up, the question is the good old "cui bono" ("to whose benefit"). Your cynical answer is "for themselves, for their ego". I think that's way too harsh. I'd rather say it was for Himeko ASWELL, who _both_ loved. As a cynic, you should also be able to agree that the world is grey, not black and white. I don't think we should paint over the white aspects here

[The Yellow Dwarf]

Originally Posted by Mentar

At least your conclusions are very cynical. And while I'd say you've made a compelling case for Souma trying to play the _role_ of the chivalrous knight, I would not see this as mutually exclusive with _really_ genuinely loving Himeko. And on Chikane, I personally think that you're off, at least in your wording. "Ego" is the wrong term to describe her motivation.
[...]
Well, it's convenient to skip it, since it's making your position easier to defend, but it's dangerous in the end. Since you come to the final conclusion that the driving force behind Souma and Chikane is ego instead of love, this omission is a bit problematic.

I really don't feel like discussing what love is and isn't. My conclusion was that they were both using Himeko for their own emotional and/or psychological needs irrespective of Himeko's well-being, or at the very least, less concerned about Himeko's well-being than their own. Maybe that is what love is, I dunno. I have no idea what love is, but maybe Freud and his disciples have a lot more to say about that. The conclusion is a little shaky, I agree. Mainly because there are more than one facets to why the two want Himeko.

Minor sidenote: Himeko starts with "Chikane-chan" in episode 6. Episode 1 is obviously after their meeting in 6, because in this scene Chikane invited Himeko in the rose garden where they first met.

Yes, and that's before she found out about "Miya-sama," which probably speaks more about how little they know of each other at Ep. 1. We could intepret it as a love at first sight in the tradition of R&J but the intepretation that it's an influence from Chikane's past is not so far-fetched either, IMNSHO.

Chikane's happiness is related to how close she can be to her "sun". She is happy when Himeko comes back crying to her arms after the first Souma date to be hugged and comforted by her ("she's coming to me"), and she is crying when Himeko comes back from the second date musing that maybe Souma is the one she's looking for after all ("I'm losing her"). [...]
If you want to atone for sins of the past, you do not go on a rampage to sin even MORE! If she just wanted to get rid of her burden of guilt, she would NOT make it even worse. But I guess that this may not be what you wanted to say and that you're rather agreeing with me on this:
[...]
I think the reason Chikane gave makes much more sense: In order to be ABLE to atone, she had to make Himeko hate (and kill) her.

And I thought the jury already closed the book on Chikane already.
Well, there are a lot more aspects to the Chikane-Himeko relationship. IMO there are three major points: her seemingly uncontrollable lust, her ability to protect Himeko (or the lack thereof), and the guilt of the past life.

Her lust is the primary driving force for her desire to be close to Himeko, and the much the cause of her passive-aggressive stance. She wants to be close to Himeko, sure, but it's a lot closer than just "being together."

Well, as for the atonement part, the issue is kind of, well, stupid. Because there are only two Miko, you have to kill one or the other. So it's kind of impossible to argue whether she's doing it for Himeko or for herself. Your view makes sense, and it puts Chikane in a much better light. But that seems to contradict the series of events in which Chikane becomes part of the Orochi, and perhaps the most favored by Orochi.

Souma's condition aside (I already explained my stance that Orochi's influence on Souma is almost entirely alien), not just anybody can become part of the Orochi, (at least that's my opinion). The other five Orochi heads' suffering are, AFAWK, induced by external factors for which they have no control. But Tsubasa and Chikane (past) have one thing in common: their sufferings are mostly wrought by their own doings. They are both the assailants and the victims, their crimes and their pains are the same. That is why they cannot find salvation within themselves, and the reason they are the two strongest of the Orochi: their rage is not directed towards others (as is the case for the other five Orochi heads), but towards themselves.

The only way Chikane can find peace is for her to die by Himeko's hands, this semi-revenge on herself is the source of her "purple power" and the drive behind her actions. It is true that the aspect of saving Himeko's life and destroying herself are intertwined (there are only two Miko after all), but if her intentions are predominantly selfless, then that cannot, IMO, adequately explain where she gets her Orochi power.

And the coup de grace was not that Himeko "forgave" her for killing her in the past, it was Himeko's explanation why she _really_ loved Chikane too.
[...]
To sum it up, the question is the good old "cui bono" ("to whose benefit"). Your cynical answer is "for themselves, for their ego". I think that's way too harsh. I'd rather say it was for Himeko ASWELL, who _both_ loved.

Hmm... I sort of agree, and sort of don't agree. IMHO the "coup de grace," as you put it, is not that Himeko professes her love for Chikane, but that Himeko loves Chikane despite the fact that Chikane killed her last time. The one obstacle that Chikane cannot overcome is how she can still be loved with what she had done in the past, but Himeko did not only forgive her, Himeko absolved her from her crime and her guilt.

It is true that by the end, Chikane totally fell apart. However, I think the most part of it all is that Himeko said that Chikane is neither an angel nor a devil, implying that Chikane doesn't need to always be the strongest, to always be the one protecting Himeko, nor was her past deed something abominable that she must be punished. Chikane crumbled because two things which she considered, up to that point, two defining characters of herself, fell apart under Himeko's words. All there left is lust.

I'm not sure if that's harsh to say that they're both doing it for themselves... Or rather, I'm not sure if doing it for themselves is unquestionable bad. There are self-serving and selfless parts to both Souma and Chikane, I just feel that the former overshadows the latter. (The same applies to Himeko, but I'm tired.)

[dreamless]

well, I agree about the guilt part, that's why Chikane could not summon Ama no Murakumo at first, the guilt of her past life affected her, it's because of guilt from her past life, not of the current Chikane.

And yup Chikane must have some great darkness inside herself to have all the Orochi power that can defeat even Tsubasa, and practically take the true Orochi power into herself. Orochi is the personification of darkness inside human hearts, after all. If all Chikane had were pure love and positive emotions then it should be impossible for her to take in Orochi power. It's not like you can have great darkness and negative emotions in your heart just because it's required to do so. Human emotions should not be rationally manipulatable, it's not like you can hate someone just because you are required to hate someone, or you can be sad just because you are required to be sad. Maybe a good guy can pretend to be evil, but that doesn't mean he'll really have darkness inside his heart.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by The Yellow Dwarf

Her lust is the primary driving force for her desire to be close to Himeko, and the much the cause of her passive-aggressive stance. She wants to be close to Himeko, sure, but it's a lot closer than just "being together."

We're getting a bit personal here, and feel free to tell me to take a hike, but have you ever really been in love? Because I don't think that if you are, you can separate the "lust" aspect from the "love" this easily. You seem to make a clear distinction here which I didn't experience in my own life before. Lust is a natural part of love. Unless of course you want to argue here that Chikane just had the hots for Himeko's worldly goods, but no interest in her other than this. I doubt that you seriously mean that.

Well, as for the atonement part, the issue is kind of, well, stupid. Because there are only two Miko, you have to kill one or the other. So it's kind of impossible to argue whether she's doing it for Himeko or for herself. Your view makes sense, and it puts Chikane in a much better light. But that seems to contradict the series of events in which Chikane becomes part of the Orochi, and perhaps the most favored by Orochi.

Aaaah, the "she's been so evil towards Himeko, so she must have been evil in the first place, otherwise she couldn't have become so powerful" logic. I can only turn this argument around: If she was predominantly evil, how did she manage to keep herself under control until Himeko killed her? I don't argue against the fact that her guilt complex and if you want her jealousy and lust arguably gave her a good headstart in her villain career, but the question is (to me) which part of her was the predominant one.

Only one explanation makes sense at all: It was her good side. That's what the anime told us at least. Otherwise she could have killed Himeko any time she wanted. I see no reason trying to argue against the obvious.

The only way Chikane can find peace is for her to die by Himeko's hands, this semi-revenge on herself is the source of her "purple power" and the drive behind her actions. It is true that the aspect of saving Himeko's life and destroying herself are intertwined (there are only two Miko after all), but if her intentions are predominantly selfless, then that cannot, IMO, adequately explain where she gets her Orochi power.

Now what? As I outlined above, you can't have it both. If you suddenly promote the theory that Chikane was predominantly evil after all, her goal to rescue Himeko this time to be killed in her stead is making no sense at all. If all she was seeking was selfish salvation from her guilt, she could have committed suicide and that's it. Why this silly charade trying to get Himeko to do this for her?

No, if you define "atonement" as the driving motivation, you're locked in to the "good" Chikane. Only the "good" Chikane would see a necessity to atone for anything. And if you look at the anime pictures of a crying "past" Chikane over the dying "past" Himeko, it makes any argument AGAINST a genuine love between them very far out to me.

My interpretation is much more simple and straightforward. Chikane genuinely loves Himeko - and is doing this for her sake. This does NOT mean that part of can't also be for herself, but only part of it. And she's been utilizing her own hurt, pain and jealousy to become a powerful Orochi. However, her "good" side always dominated and kept her in check, so that she was able to push Himeko to the edge (where she needed her in order to get her to kill her at all - which is totally against Himeko's nature), but not over it.

Hmm... I sort of agree, and sort of don't agree. IMHO the "coup de grace," as you put it, is not that Himeko professes her love for Chikane, but that Himeko loves Chikane despite the fact that Chikane killed her last time. The one obstacle that Chikane cannot overcome is how she can still be loved with what she had done in the past, but Himeko did not only forgive her, Himeko absolved her from her crime and her guilt.

That's correct, but only the part of it. Rewatch the episode if you don't believe me. This explanation of yours only lasted until Himeko took Chikane's face and kissed her for the first time. Which was a very classy way of her to say "I love you. Now shut up and listen to me"

What made Chikane _really_ crumble in the end was Himeko's ability to explain to Chikane that "her" love was the same as Chikane's. Himeko couldn't care less about Chikane killing her in her former life. What's important to her is getting Chikane to believe her. Also, it was more of an apology to Chikane that she had not realized what hardship she had put on her in the past, and that she wanted to be there for her from now on from the bottom of her heart. It wasn't a "I really forgive you" but a "Forgive me for making you suffer before, I do love you" instead.

Again, post-kiss Chikane's guilt was totally irrelevant. Watch the episode.

It is true that by the end, Chikane totally fell apart. However, I think the most part of it all is that Himeko said that Chikane is neither an angel nor a devil, implying that Chikane doesn't need to always be the strongest, to always be the one protecting Himeko, nor was her past deed something abominable that she must be punished. Chikane crumbled because two things which she considered, up to that point, two defining characters of herself, fell apart under Himeko's words. All there left is lust.

You and your lust ... after the confession all kissing and cuddling was initiated by Himeko. If lust was such a driving factor, why did Chikane not act on it when she was finally allowed to? Sorry, we have to agree to disagree here. Lust doesn't cut the mustard.

I'm not sure if that's harsh to say that they're both doing it for themselves... Or rather, I'm not sure if doing it for themselves is unquestionable bad. There are self-serving and selfless parts to both Souma and Chikane, I just feel that the former overshadows the latter. (The same applies to Himeko, but I'm tired.)

To sum up: I don't see where your insistence of "doing it for themselves" is reflected in the anime. We agree on many accounts (most importantly that Chikane was haunted by her guilt), but I see no indication which would indicate that her motivations were JUST or at least predominantly selfish. Instead, for me there are clear signs that Chikane felt genuine love for Himeko, and that her decision to be killed in her stead was also FOR Himeko. _Of course_. Anything else feels highly artificial to me.

[dreamless]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Aaaah, the "she's been so evil towards Himeko, so she must have been evil in the first place, otherwise she couldn't have become so powerful" logic. I can only turn this argument around: If she was predominantly evil, how did she manage to keep herself under control until Himeko killed her? I don't argue against the fact that her guilt complex and if you want her jealousy and lust arguably gave her a good headstart in her villain career, but the question is (to me) which part of her was the predominant one.

Only one explanation makes sense at all: It was her good side. That's what the anime told us at least. Otherwise she could have killed Himeko any time she wanted. I see no reason trying to argue against the obvious.

Well, maybe it's not "evil", but "darkness", so her "good side" is predominant over her "evil side", but her "dark side" is also predominant over her "light side". And this is not contradictory, actually I think this might well be the only logical explanation. "dark side" is not necessarily "evil side". Things like "lust", "despair", "hatred", "selfishness", regret", etc. etc. can be counted as the "dark side", but not really the "evil side". however, the emotion of "love" should be the "light side"... or at least if we go by anime standards... at least I've never heard of any anime describing the emotion of "love" as a "dark side" emotion... actually "love" is mostly regarded as the brightest of the "light side" emotion.

So for Chikane to have so much "darkness" inside her heart that she can take all the Orochi power into herself, could that mean that her "dark side" emotions predominant over her "light side" emotions at that time? So her hatred (to the Orochis who sought to hurt Himeko, and maybe to Souma), lust (to be together be Himeko, to take Himeko just for herself), regret (to kill Himeko in her previous incarnation, and to rape Himeko), despair (not able to express her love to Himeko because she's a girl, have to give up Himeko to Souma), etc. etc. surpass her brighter emotions like love at that time?

[Mentar]

I suspect that we're at the edge of overanalyzing things - and most less zealous folks on these boards will probably think that we're already far beyond.

The only thing we know for sure is that until the very end - in full Orochi mode - Chikane was always able to stay her course. To push Himeko to hate her, needing drastic measures for that, yet never giving in to kill her (what Orochi desired). Therefore I interpret even her violating Himeko not as somehow giving in to her "evil" side or anything, but to execute a premediated plan which REQUIRED these actions in a very controlled manner. I think that anything happening between "I've decided, Himeko. I've decided." at the end of ep7 and timecode 5:45 in ep12 was part of her plan, her decision.

Is this the only possible interpretation? No, but it's the one I feel is most consistent. And also the most romantic ^_^ ... and thus the one most in synch with the "spirit" of this anime, IMO. It's fine if TYD and you come to different conclusions, I'm not saying that I'm necessarily right.

I just suspect that I'm getting the most satisfaction out of the story ^_^

[dreamless]

Therefore I interpret even her violating Himeko not as somehow giving in to her "evil" side or anything, but to execute a premediated plan which REQUIRED these actions in a very controlled manner.

Hmm... maybe coldly calculating things and executing the "required steps" perfectly without any interference from emotions can also be counted as something of the "dark side" I guess. Not "evil side", but "dark side". At least in anime standards, the "light side" would be "no matter how necessary, I'll never do those kind of things, because the end can never justify the means, so I'll work harder and harder and surely a miracle will happen if I work hard enough that even though I don't do the necessary things I'll still achieve the goal"

[The Yellow Dwarf]

Originally Posted by Mentar

We're getting a bit personal here, and feel free to tell me to take a hike, but have you ever really been in love? Because I don't think that if you are, you can separate the "lust" aspect from the "love" this easily. You seem to make a clear distinction here which I didn't experience in my own life before. Lust is a natural part of love. Unless of course you want to argue here that Chikane just had the hots for Himeko's worldly goods, but no interest in her other than this. I doubt that you seriously mean that.

Go take a hike! j/k No, I don't think I've been in love, maybe that's why my view on this is quite muddled. (It's also kinda hard if you don't know what love is.)

I was going to say, "there are three words I am not going to use: Love, Good and Evil." But then I did a search and I actually did use "love" a few times...so too late for that. So there are two words I am not going to use - Good and Evil, and one word I am not going to use seriously - Love.

I did not separate love from lust. I wasn't even talking about love. My feeling is that, there are so many different views on what Love is, and there are so many types of Love defined (paternal love, romantic love, sibling love, etc.) that it is not worth the time arguing about it. Lust, on the other hand, is simple and direct - the desire for another's body. (If there are significant divergent views on even this then I'm going to give up.)

So it's not that Chikane doesn't "love" Himeko, I wasn't even considering that as an issue. The three major components I listed are what I consider apparent without going into muddled discussion about what "Love" is.

Chikane is very, very attracted to Himeko physically. (Just look at Ep. 1!) Even a lot more than Yamibou's Hatsuki lusting after Eve. I don't think there's any way to deny this component. At the same time, there's the tired discussion about whether her desires are "perverted" or not, and that adds a bit of conflict in the show here and there (mostly with Miyako) but they're mostly clichéd and derivative, which can suitably explain why she would sometimes push Himeko onto Souma and immediately regrets it.

Aaaah, the "she's been so evil towards Himeko, so she must have been evil in the first place, otherwise she couldn't have become so powerful" logic. I can only turn this argument around: If she was predominantly evil, how did she manage to keep herself under control until Himeko killed her? I don't argue against the fact that her guilt complex and if you want her jealousy and lust arguably gave her a good headstart in her villain career, but the question is (to me) which part of her was the predominant one.

Only one explanation makes sense at all: It was her good side. That's what the anime told us at least. Otherwise she could have killed Himeko any time she wanted. I see no reason trying to argue against the obvious.

No Good, no Evil. I don't know what Orochi is, maybe it's Evil, maybe it's Chaos, maybe it's Destruction. The only thing I know is that all of the Orochi heads have suffered at the hands of society and they're out for revenge. My hypothesis is that their power comes from their will to destroy as a way of compensating for their losses in life.

But Tsubasa and Chikane are different. They suffer because of something they did, but what they did they did believing it was the right choice. What's done cannot be undone; the past deeds cannot be erased; the self is defined by the past; there's no salvation for those with their pasts. This is the cocoon that both Tsubasa and Chikane cannot escape from, and why they both sought the annihilation of their selves. The only salvation is the destruction of their own selves: destroy the self and there is no guilt, no sin, no past, no need for salvation.

This, IMO, is one of the factors that led Chikane to ally with Orochi - completely self-destructive. She sought annihilation of the self because there is no way out of the sins of the past but in the form of an assisted suicide, and her guilt can only be canceled by being killed by the one she killed, and this is the only method of atonement, or so she thought.

Also, it was more of an apology to Chikane that she had not realized what hardship she had put on her in the past, and that she wanted to be there for her from now on from the bottom of her heart. It wasn't a "I really forgive you" but a "Forgive me for making you suffer before, I do love you" instead.

I agree with that, but I'm still stuck on Himeko's words that Chikane is neither angel nor devil. Her point is that Chikane can show her feelings, she doesn't need to lock herself up anymore. There's no need for the Miya-sama persona anymore, and there's no need for the Orochi-girl persona anymore either. The two are, in cheesespeak, "together as one." In a way, two Chikane are killed at this moment. The "angel" who struggles with her impulses and the "devil" who's trapped in the sins of her past. That's why she broke down the way she did.

EDIT: To be honest, one of the reasons the show is so fun to analyze and to "bash" is that a lot of the times it's just so positively bad. I know I cannot watch the last episode more than 2 minutes at a time because I just have to burst out laughing if I stayed a little longer. So it's easy to keep a cool distance and pick at things here and there.

[Pereii]

I suspect that we're at the edge of overanalyzing things - and most less zealous folks on these boards will probably think that we're already far beyond.

Oh yeah...you guys are going wayyyy too deep in your observations. Not to say that's a bad thing though . But it'd be better to save the time and brain cells for animes that were/are actually created for the viewers to analyze. I highly doubt the producers of Kannamiko expect such deep analysis...or even discussions. Maybe during the series, but certainly not after. They've pretty much made a closure to the characters' relationships in the last episode. Now it's simply up to the viewers to either accept the explanations directly(which I think would be the best way...cmon, it's a crazy anime with the main goal being to offer some fanservice and yuri love for male otakus)...or dig into their dialogue and come up with some sort of hidden motive that the producers themselves probably didn't even know existed.

Seriously, I doubt they dissected each of their characters as far as we/you guys have. This isn't EVA or some other weird Gainax production, nor does it try to be. If it was, they wouldn't have closed up the ending the way they did...which was basically having Chikane spend the whole episode explaining everything, leaving virtually nothing else(well, nothing MAJOR concerning herself) unexplained. Of course, there's a bunch of WTF factors like Souma being able to revive from the curse with a slash of his bro's sword, Chikane's "short-lived punishment" in the moon shrine, Ame no Murakumo basically doing nothing in the last ep, and why God's such an idiot making no progress whatsoever in defeating Orochi, etc. etc.
But that just goes to show how much thought the producers, director, and script writer actually put into producing this whole series. Not that it wasn't fantastic; just not in the deep, logical way some of us seem to believe it is. Or else why are we trying to explain all these stuff to make it seem logical?

It's fun discussing...even more so when you get into all the "what ifs" and "maybes", but the more I think about it the more stupid I feel since I sincerely believe the anime was made to be taken directly. That's why I for one am just gonna straightforward stick with whatever explanations was given by the characters .


On another note, I heard that Kaishaku was pretty happy with the yuri ending which had been planned from the start of the production. He wrote it on some online blog of his. I also read somewhere that he mentioned there being a possiblity of a second season if the DVD sales are good. I think it was from Shounen Jump. Seriously though...a second season? No thanks, let's not ruin something already bordering on the line between "good anime" and "crap".


EDIT: Kaishaku's online diary: http://dog.oekakist.com/kaishaku/

[dreamless]

Hmm... Kaishaku? I heard after the anime ended, they replied to angry Souma fans on their bbs saying that "a true hero never asks for return", so I guess that's their official word on the Souma character, "a true hero"... so... again, Souma-kun, you are a good man... OTL

oh, and it seems there's a new manga from Kaishaku titled "The Cross Triangle", which is said to be basically about both Himeko and Chikane fall in love with Oogami... or something...

[Sigurd]

Hmm, despite that Himeko look-alike and Souma look-alike. It looks like one of Kaishaku's older works.

I ran some search and found that it was published in 2003.

edit *forgot to tell that you almost gave me a heart-attack.*

[Takemi_Ikazuchi]

oh, and it seems there's a new manga from Kaishaku titled "The Cross Triangle", which is said to be basically about both Himeko and Chikane fall in love with Oogami... or something...

http://s05.imagehost.org/view.php?im...s_triangle.jpg

That's one of their older series, but I guess you could say they recycled the character templates.

I could post the cover for their Chikane x Himeko doujinshi, but that would probably be against the TOS.

[Takemi_Ikazuchi]

message deleted.. this board really needs a delete function.

[The Yellow Dwarf]

Anya Zannin Gumi....sounds satanic. XD

[Paean]

Regardless of the main characters' true motivations, at least one thing is clear: Human love is quite imperfect, though it still has a great capacity to heal. (quoted from Dr. Harold Sala)

EDIT: Given all your arguments, though, I'm tempted to conclude that Souma and Chikane are more likely in love with Himeko, than actually loving her. There's a difference. Dr. Scott Peck mentioned something about the collapse of ego boundaries, and I believe it applies in both cases, though in a different way. It may seem that both Souma and Chikane have needs (real or perceived) that they think or feel are being met by acting toward Himeko in a certain way.

Don't you just love how these anime producers leave a lot of gray areas for viewers to explore, debate about, and generally get our minds mixed up over?

Maybe we're overananalyzing and reading too much into things, maybe not. The point for me is that the very fact the analyses exist at all implies that certain points in the anime were either not explained properly enough, or at least not to the satisfaction of certain fans. People really have a desire to know and confirm things.