(L) Negima Manga Discussion

[Kurush]

Maybe. But it was an insane theory to begin with, if I might point that out.

[Aebliss]

Originally Posted by Kurush

Maybe. But it was an insane theory to begin with, if I might point that out.

Sure thing. ^^ Then again, we are talking about Japanese manga.

[TnAdct1]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

looked over the raw of chapter 286 and i had a theory on ME

Spoiler for ME:

as stated, it is powered by darkness but when Makie and Ako touched him he reverted to normal. Not to mention that seeing Ako, remembering her feelings and then seeing the bracelet he managed to stop. What if while fighting rather than mindlessly fighting like he has been since getting ME he was to think of love. do you think that such a dark spell could then start drawing on the light? Same great benefits but draws on something good and not dangerous. That weould also leave open the fact that if he loses control of his feelings he'd revert to the beast. Would be like the ultimate mixture of light and dark magic

That's pretty much what I stated a few posts earlier. I think love is going to be key to controlling the ME. Along with what happens in 286, I also pointed out the incident where Negi originally went into "demon form" during his confrontation with Godel as an example, as Negi was beginning to revert back to normal after hearing the pleas of Nodoka, a girl who has confesses her love to her.

[AlphaDragoon]

Originally Posted by Aebliss

I note you don't deny it's a bad idea to inject yourself with Xenomorph genes to go on a bughunt ... And yes, I know 'special forms' are the standard for shounen. But isn't it also a pretty big trope that the one using them runs the risk of crippling or killing themselves if they use it too much?

I don't know what you're referring to (the movie Alien, maybe?), so I chose not to comment on things I know nothing about. Sorry I cant debate on that particular point. As for special forms crippling or killing someone if they use them too much, yeah, it happens a lot in shounen.

Going back to the Naruto example, a while ago Naruto learned how to use the Fuuton: Rasenshuriken (FRS for short). When he first learned it, it was devastatingly powerful...but it had a major drawback. It slices up the cells in someone's body on a microscopic level, including the user. In fact, Naruto was specifically told: don't use the skill, it's far too dangerous, it shortens your lifespan everytime you use it and will end your career as a shinobi. Did Naruto stop using it and find another powerful jutsu instead, as a few folks here would have Negi do with Magia Erebea?

No. Instead, he trained even harder, and found that when in Sage Mode the natural energy protects his body from the harmful effects of the jutsu and even allows him to throw the FRS, making it far more effective. Shounen heroes don't really "give up" on powerups because they're dangerous, they find a way to use them without the drawback.

Originally Posted by Aebliss

Speaking for myself, I'm not too hung up on the labels of light and dark, law and chaos, when it comes to making a moral judgment on the use of power. The concept of taking in all aspects of yourself and moving forward is fine. But one should try to refine oneself, as well. And mashing all aspects of yourself into a ball of undifferentiated chaos is just ... unhealthy. For all those techniques you mentioned, I'd still be against the ones that are patently unhealthy for the user and high-risk, like Magia Erebea. It becomes moronic when an alternative technique for achieving insane power has already been presented, with no stated health risks whatsoever, and no stated limit to its upgrading capacity: the Kankahou. Negi has Ku Fei to teach him Chi use, he has Takahata and Asuna to teach him the practice of Kankahou ... and he never even tried, even when he was supposed to be all about the power.

That's the point I'm trying to make, Magia Erebea is only dangerous to him NOW. Once he masters it, it won't pose any "side effects", if it's anything like other shounen powerups. Just like Ichigo in Bleach won't be going all Hollow berserker on his own friends like he did when he got that "second level" Hollowification once he learns to control it. The "side effect" isn't there to become some big moral issue of right and wrong or power vs. risk...it's there to make an obstacle for the hero to overcome so he doesn't become too strong too fast. It's simply there for character development.

And I may be wrong on this (it's been a while since I read the older chapters) but when Asuna first learned Kankahou didn't Takamichi say something about Negi not being able to use it? On top of it, I'd be more than willing to bet that the "insane power" presented by Kankahou is nothing in the face of ME, which he will learn to do safely, thus making it better overall.

Originally Posted by Aebliss

Except for all the experts saying so, you mean ...? McDowell Modoki and Setsuna?

Rakan's also used Magia Erebea. He can overcome just about anything short of the Code of the Lifemaker and his own absurd power -- and it blew up in his face and caused him significant injuries. That should have been a pretty big clue that ME is hazardous.

Yes, they said the power was dark, like a demon. Not demonic itself. Setsuna says herself in 273 when Negi turns into lightning "when you transform into lightning you are essentially the same as a high-level demonic being". Still doesn't mean Negi has to become a demon himself. The way the story has presented it, becoming a demon is the "bad side effect" that Negi is trying to overcome (crazy dragon looking Negi), not the end result.

Rakan also used Magia Erebea, yes. Rakan is also a person in uncharted waters when it comes to controlling it, like Negi is. But Negi plans to master the skill without allowing it to control his body, thus taking the "hazard" out of it and only leaving incredible power. Negi using it overshadows Rakan using it because even though Rakan is amazingly powerful...Negi's the shounen hero and he's not. Therefore he succeeds where others fail, and so forth.

Originally Posted by Aebliss

Didn't he intentionally throw that fight in an attempt to have Negi kill him and lock him into the course he'd planned for him?



Hmmn, I'm not so sure about that. There may be one more enemy after Aerruncus, but I get the feeling that he is the final Gateway Guardian. Beyond him, there may be no more than the Mage of Origins, or whatever his exact title was. And perhaps Nagi.

He did throw it...the first time. The second time when Negi refused him, he flat out beat Godel down Shinmeiryuu and all, but refused to kill him. Then the side effects of ME kicked in.

And I don't think the manga's ending so soon, thus there will probably be more villains and thus, more need to such a high-level ability like ME. This is all opinion of course since neither you nor I actually know when the manga is ending.

[Chris38]

I think that I will also put some input on to why Negi choose Magia Erebea which resulted in him falling into the state that he currently has.

Well, first of all I don't want to turn this into a discussion of if Negi made the correct choice or not.
I think that at the moment when Rakan has made Negi choose I think it was made clear that Negi's personality and his being where more leaning foreword the quicker and more risky path of becoming a dark mage like Evangeline.

I think this choice and what made him so compatible with Magia Erebea to such extent is what exactly happened in his childhood when the village that he was living in was attacked and that before that event happened Negi was already pretty driven to meet his father already. enough to get in trouble, becuase he thought, in a childish way that when he gets into trouble his father will come and save him.

And then the attacked happened and Negi's childhood ended, making him realize.that the actions he takes have consequences and when trouble comes he has to depend on himself and not everyone. It was probably intensified when he finally met with Nagi, his father who he didn't see until that moment. I think that everything that happened ion that day was what caused Negi to start keeping his emotions pent up, since he blamed himself as the reason why his village was attacked. In a way his childhood was kind of like what happened to Eva, which is probably why they get along so well.

In a sense Negi has become kind of broken from the event's of that day. I think that it has kind of made him empty inside and probably caused his affinity for darkness to be developed, which probably intensified with all of the emotions that he kept up inside him. In a sense Negi's tragic past is what caused him to choose darkness and realize that his past won't let him become like his father. In a sense Negi's past is still hunting him, which is probably what caused Rakan to bring up the matter of Magia Erebea in the first place.

So I don't think it was possible for Negi to reject his past and make a new start forgetting about everything that happened so far. He just couldn't do it, since like Scroll-Eva said to him when he dueled with her in the Phantasmagoria she said to him ... it's Negi's past that drives him foreword and causes him to not break down ... it's his source of his power.

So if he choose light ,it would probably mean that Negi has to reject his entire being and form something else from what was left behind, well while it's true that he would still remain human he would have to become a completely different person then before, so I think that Negi choose the only option that he thought was available to him, without denying what circumstances and his past shaped him into. Sp in a way Negi choosing darkness is kind of showing him growing up, since unlike before Negi has finally acknowledged that he won't become like his father. It's kind of like a kid chasing after his idol and realizing that it's impossible to do so, though in Negi's case the consequences of his actions are much more severe.

[Kurush]

So ultimately, there never really were a right choice to begin with.

[ac195]

Originally Posted by Krono

Rakan used it. Not as well, or to the extent the Negi does, but he doesn't really need it, and probably learned it just in case.

I for one... do not classify Rakan as "human."

[Aebliss]

Originally Posted by Chris38

I think that I will also put some input on to why Negi choose Magia Erebea which resulted in him falling into the state that he currently has.

Well, first of all I don't want to turn this into a discussion of if Negi made the correct choice or not.

Spoiler for saving some space:

I think that at the moment when Rakan has made Negi choose I think it was made clear that Negi's personality and his being where more leaning foreword the quicker and more risky path of becoming a dark mage like Evangeline.

I think this choice and what made him so compatible with Magia Erebea to such extent is what exactly happened in his childhood when the village that he was living in was attacked and that before that event happened Negi was already pretty driven to meet his father already. enough to get in trouble, becuase he thought, in a childish way that when he gets into trouble his father will come and save him.

And then the attacked happened and Negi's childhood ended, making him realize.that the actions he takes have consequences and when trouble comes he has to depend on himself and not everyone. It was probably intensified when he finally met with Nagi, his father who he didn't see until that moment. I think that everything that happened ion that day was what caused Negi to start keeping his emotions pent up, since he blamed himself as the reason why his village was attacked. In a way his childhood was kind of like what happened to Eva, which is probably why they get along so well.

In a sense Negi has become kind of broken from the event's of that day. I think that it has kind of made him empty inside and probably caused his affinity for darkness to be developed, which probably intensified with all of the emotions that he kept up inside him. In a sense Negi's tragic past is what caused him to choose darkness and realize that his past won't let him become like his father. In a sense Negi's past is still hunting him, which is probably what caused Rakan to bring up the matter of Magia Erebea in the first place.

So I don't think it was possible for Negi to reject his past and make a new start forgetting about everything that happened so far. He just couldn't do it, since like Scroll-Eva said to him when he dueled with her in the Phantasmagoria she said to him ... it's Negi's past that drives him foreword and causes him to not break down ... it's his source of his power.

So if he choose light ,it would probably mean that Negi has to reject his entire being and form something else from what was left behind, well while it's true that he would still remain human he would have to become a completely different person then before, so I think that Negi choose the only option that he thought was available to him, without denying what circumstances and his past shaped him into. Sp in a way Negi choosing darkness is kind of showing him growing up, since unlike before Negi has finally acknowledged that he won't become like his father. It's kind of like a kid chasing after his idol and realizing that it's impossible to do so, though in Negi's case the consequences of his actions are much more severe.

So basically, he's a traumatised kid that should have been put into therapy, wasn't, and is making his choices based on his trauma. And too many people are expecting him to do right because of his father.

[Kurush]

Originally Posted by ac195

I for one... do not classify Rakan as "human."

And technically speaking, Rakan never was. Just pointing it out.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Kurush

And technically speaking, Rakan never was. Just pointing it out.

And not just from the illusion versus reality perspective, even. He's clearly implied to be whatever race Teodora is in 236, which is not human.

[Gearhead]

Originally Posted by Aebliss

So basically, he's a traumatised kid that should have been put into therapy, wasn't, and is making his choices based on his trauma. And too many people are expecting him to do right because of his father.

You're reading too much into this, I think.

In terms of narrative force, Negi would be similar to say, Ken Amada in Persona 3. A child forced to grow up too fast. Though, unlike Ken, Negi is capable of functioning in spite of his problems and is, overall, better adjusted.

We know what sort of person Negi is. He's basically a grown man in a 10 (12?) year old's skin, at least in terms of rational development. Emotionally he's a little ragged and physically (hormonally too) he's still got some catching up to do, but they would not have turned him loose on a middle school class in another country unless someone was sure he was up to the task.

He's done things no child would have ever had the resources or composure to do. He's had the drive and will to accomplish tasks that would've foiled most grown men. Hell, I would've emotionally imploded somewhere around the Kyoto Arc were I in his shoes and I'm three times his age. It would've been time for a room with nice, soft walls for me.

The same for anyone else reading this thread.

This is heroic fiction and action/adventure. Sit back and watch our hero shine, it's what he's here to do.

[Aebliss]

He's not shining as brightly as he once did. His light has been darkened - not just because of Magia Erebea, but because he is actively trying to be an idiot. :-\

[Gearhead]

Originally Posted by Aebliss

He's not shining as brightly as he once did. His light has been darkened - not just because of Magia Erebea, but because he is actively trying to be an idiot. :-\

Nothing has changed save the tools he uses to accomplish the exact same goals. He's always been gunning for Fate. He's always been trying to get his students home. But, of course, we keep going around in this same circle because we look at the matter from different perspectives.

Welcome to the Negima status quo. The main character is angry and has been given the tools to express that anger externally. At very least he isn't keeping it bottled up.

[Aebliss]

He's not really working through it towards a resolution, either.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Aebliss

He's not shining as brightly as he once did. His light has been darkened - not just because of Magia Erebea, but because he is actively trying to be an idiot. :-\

Negi is the same as he always been. The attack on his village has always been the driven force behind him. It is just now that people are more aware of the shadows surrounding him. Shadows that have always been there except people weren't noticing them because blinded by his light.

[AlphaDragoon]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

Negi is the same as he always been. The attack on his village has always been the driven force behind him. It is just now that people are more aware of the shadows surrounding him. Shadows that have always been there except people weren't noticing them because blinded by his light.

Yep, basically.

It's not like Negi's gonna go evil or turn morally grey or anything anyway. He's a shounen hero. With a big-ass powerup that happens to be based in darkness, but the origin is a non-factor. He will learn to control it and thus it will just be a big-ass powerup, that's the only important part.

[Aebliss]

When this whole business with Mundus Magicus, Fate Averruncus and his dad is over, though, it might be a good idea for some of the adults to make Negi see a shrink. Or a whole bunch of shrinks, because seriously ...

[Gearhead]

Originally Posted by Aebliss

When this whole business with Mundus Magicus, Fate Averruncus and his dad is over, though, it might be a good idea for some of the adults to make Negi see a shrink. Or a whole bunch of shrinks, because seriously ...

You're expecting realism in a comic book?

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Aebliss

When this whole business with Mundus Magicus, Fate Averruncus and his dad is over, though, it might be a good idea for some of the adults to make Negi see a shrink. Or a whole bunch of shrinks, because seriously ...

Unless said shrink's name is Charles Xavier, I think that might only complicate things...

Negi: Well, I've just recently reconciled with my parents after a long separation, and everything in school related to that appears to be resolving itself nicely, but I still have a lot of pent-up dark emotions over the ordeal.
Shrink: "Dark" emotions, huh? Well, it's only normal to feel that way, Negi. Maybe you should find a hobby, outside of school, and channel your emotions into that.

**one week later**

Shrink: Well, Negi, did you find a nice hobby?
Negi: Yes...
Shrink: Does it seem to be working?
Negi: Yes...but...
Shrink: What seems to be the problem?
Negi: Well, I started small, with the drug wars on the Mexican/American border, and that was simple enough... And stopping all the genocide in Africa was only a problem for a day or so... But I've come to realize that there are a lot of people who just don't want peace in the Middle East...

[Kurush]

If that ever happened, allow me to smash my head against a desk.