[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 8 Twilight of the golden witch

[FirstTwilight]

Originally Posted by Renall

Ep3 can be solved in several non-silly ways without it.

I was talking about Ep. 3 First Twilight specifically (and possibly Nanjo murder).

And it is "possible" to solve ep1 and ep2 without it. That's exactly the problem

Anyway, I really don't know how you can solve them (and EP 3 First Twilight) in non-silly ways, without contradicting the red text and with consistency between them and Ep VI duel.

Beside, there is a solution now, so .

But again, those are Beatrice's games, and Beatrice wanted to scapegoat herself, so we don't even need to bother explaining it. That doesn't explain anything about R-Prime itself. Factually, by the end of ep4 all we could conclude is that there might be an R-Prime, but that its contents are presently unknowable. In fact, I did conclude that, as did quite a few others.
.

She also wanted Battler to understand her. She wanted him to understand her heart, her "roulette of fate", which can lead to the adults going rampage. Which is Rokkenjima Prime, one of the possible results of her Roulette.

I can agree that it was actually very, very hard to understand these things in ep 1-4.

"But is R-Prime even important?" The way he framed ep7 and ep8, yes it very much is. As of ep1-4? Not really. He made it important. He raised the questions and provided the information. People are not ragging on him needlessly

I understand, but i also understand that he didn't left us completely clueless.

Again, we know how Rokkenjima's catbox works now. We know about Yasu's Roulette of Fate. We know one of the adult but Natsuhi/Krauss (perhaps...) could go rampage and kill everyone. We know the truth is ugly and Ange shouldn't know it.
It's not like he just dropped the name "Rokkenjima Prime" and that's it. He gave us several important clues and answers in a game where he promised no direct answers.

For me, what was important was Beatrice's Heart, her reason. Maybe that's why i can take it easy.

[witchfan]

Originally Posted by FirstTwilight

"Kanon is not Shannon"

Please don't assume this to be so ridiculous that you won't even consider it. Pet peeve.

[AuraTwilight]

It is sort of ridiculous considering how much the series rubs it in our face at this point.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Originally Posted by FirstTwilight

I won't lie, i'm also a little disappointed that we didn't get to see the full truth, but i'm also satisfied with what we got, since it was stated from the beginning we wouldn't get a clear answer.

i agree im also satisfied with it.
now i understand the goal when playing "When they cry" series, the goal is to find the culprit and have a happy ending or good ending.umineko and higurashi story is nearly the same (idon't need to explain it) but umineko's ending was different from higurashi so maybe thats the reason many people dislike it.

[witchfan]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

It is sort of ridiculous considering how much the series rubs it in our face at this point.

I'd say a lot of it is our own bias. Shkanontrice kind of works, and it's popular for some reason*, so people don't bother questioning it any more. A lot of the arguments against Shkanontrice, which appeared just when the theory started to get popular, still apply. And really, I don't think "Shkannontrice" is what's rubbed in our face, but it's certainly something close (such things as "Either Shannon or Kanon are not counted as one of the people on Rokkenjima" (at least in some of the episodes) or "Shannon and Kanon need to 'duel' so they can love" fit really well, but they don't directly imply Shkannontrice. I still stand by most of the theory I posed somewhere in Spoilers & Specs, where Kanon is an actual person). But you know, Ryukishi being the hack author he is, you can't tell when he might pull something completely ridiculous on you, so I'm not sure there's even a point in defending this.

* Okay ladies & gents, I love gender bender as much as anyone, but COME ON.

[unsuspectingvisitor]

Originally Posted by witchfan

I'd say a lot of it is our own bias. Shkanontrice kind of works, and it's popular for some reason*, so people don't bother questioning it. I don't think "Shkannontrice" is what's rubbed in our face, but it's certainly something close (such things as "Either Shannon or Kanon are not counted as one of the people on Rokkenjima" (at least in some of the episodes) or "Shannon and Kanon need to 'duel' so they can love" fit really well, but they don't directly imply Shkannontrice. I still stand by most of the theory I posed somewhere in Spoilers & Specs, where Kanon is an actual person).

* Okay ladies & gents, I love gender bender as much as anyone, but COME ON.

hey,i heard so much about shkanontrice in this forum.can you show me the theory? i don't know much about it.

[witchfan]

I didn't actually write it in detail, or try to prove it, so you won't get much. I don't have the link handy, but as far as Shkannon goes, my conjecture was that Kanon is not Shannon, but is simply dead before the conference in EPs 1-4, whereas he is alive in EPs 5-6. A tiring, long-winded discussion tends to follow where I mention it so I'll stop here, but you can dig into my old posts if you want to read it.

Edit: or wait, are you asking about Shaknontrice? It's virtually everywhere. Basically Shannon = Kanon = Beatrice and variants thereof. The whole thing is summed up by the name. There are some branches such as dissociative identity disorder, fictional Shkanon and multiple Shkanons.

[Sherringford]

Originally Posted by witchfan

I'd say a lot of it is our own bias. Shkanontrice kind of works, and it's popular for some reason*, so people don't bother questioning it any more. A lot of the arguments against Shkanontrice, which appeared just when the theory started to get popular, still apply. And really, I don't think "Shkannontrice" is what's rubbed in our face, but it's certainly something close (such things as "Either Shannon or Kanon are not counted as one of the people on Rokkenjima" (at least in some of the episodes) or "Shannon and Kanon need to 'duel' so they can love" fit really well, but they don't directly imply Shkannontrice. I still stand by most of the theory I posed somewhere in Spoilers & Specs, where Kanon is an actual person). But you know, Ryukishi being the hack author he is, you can't tell when he might pull something completely ridiculous on you, so I'm not sure there's even a point in defending this.

* Okay ladies & gents, I love gender bender as much as anyone, but COME ON.

In Bern's game, it is said in red that when Shannon dies Kanon also dies.

And seriously, as much as I hate Shkanontrice, denying it after the series is DONE is sort of...eh.

Shkanon is ridiculous and makes no sense. But it's the canonical explanation, so we have to roll with it.

[AuraTwilight]

I'd say a lot of it is our own bias. Shkanontrice kind of works, and it's popular for some reason*, so people don't bother questioning it any more. A lot of the arguments against Shkanontrice, which appeared just when the theory started to get popular, still apply. And really, I don't think "Shkannontrice" is what's rubbed in our face, but it's certainly something close (such things as "Either Shannon or Kanon are not counted as one of the people on Rokkenjima" (at least in some of the episodes) or "Shannon and Kanon need to 'duel' so they can love" fit really well, but they don't directly imply Shkannontrice. I still stand by most of the theory I posed somewhere in Spoilers & Specs, where Kanon is an actual person). But you know, Ryukishi being the hack author he is, you can't tell when he might pull something completely ridiculous on you, so I'm not sure there's even a point in defending this.

Shannon and Kanon are characters made up by Beatrice. There's really no way to get around this without making immense asspulls (which makes you a hypocrite if you're one of the people who criticizes Ryukishi's writing on things like this).

[delita-umw-]

I agree with Sherringford. I hate Shkanon, I wish it didn't exist, and there are ways to get around it, but that's the canon explanation Ryukishi gave us.

That being said, I certainly think that the possibility of Kanon being based on a real character who may or may not have been on Rokkenjima is less of an asspull than Kyrie suddenly going crazy and killing everyone LOL all according to plan.

[Axilios]

In Bern's game, it is said in red that when Shannon dies Kanon also dies.

Bad example, there is still a lot of ways of countering this thing, or rather you can interpret it in many ways.
However the real part which is annoying (doable, but REALLY a pain) when making a theory without Shkannon is this damn love duel, especially after ep7.
THIS is annoying when you want to find something which make sense and isn't an asspull.
Well, with his nonexistent canon truth, Ryukishi is kind enough to give us enough freedom in order to make other theories work, I won't complain about this personally.

[Sherringford]

Originally Posted by Axilios

Bad example, there is still a lot of ways of countering this thing, or rather you can interpret it in many ways.
However the real part which is annoying (doable, but REALLY a pain) when making a theory without Shkannon is this damn love duel, especially after ep7.
THIS is annoying when you want to find something which make sense and isn't an asspull.
Well, with his nonexistent canon truth, Ryukishi is kind enough to give us enough freedom in order to make other theories work, I won't complain about this personally.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a schizophrenic psycho, then I'm going to assume it's Shkanon rather than some other theory. Even Ryu isn't that bad of a writer. The way the red is given is(someone correct me if I misunderstood, my Japanese isn't perfect) "once Shannon is dead, we will also consider Kanon to be dead, and his masterkey will be treated as destroyed." The intention is clearly there.

Are there any other conclusions we can draw from the text besides Shkanon? Yes, but not without ignoring much of it and being willfully blind. At that point we might as well stop reading and write a different novel ourselves.

It's unfortunately the canon explanation, and trying to come up with an alternative one feels like fanfiction to me rather than theorizing.

[Axilios]

This is correct, except the fact that I think that it is "Kanon disappeared". if I remember correctly, not sure about this.
The part about the master key is quite confusing, by the way.

And you are free to believe what you want to. You can still solve it by something else than Shkannon, and without ignoring the text at all, but right now my point is not to convince you. (it is even more easy if you play like Ryukishi and allow nonsense, but if you do this, Shkannon is fine too.).
It's just that usually, anyone who go against Shkannon in any way is considered as blind or stupid. Well, no. It's not because people are interpreting things in a different way that they are wrong (or right, for that matter), and you don't even need to look to what the text is saying for this. And luckily, that's what umineko is all about, interpretation.

As I said, this part of ep8 is absolutely nothing given the wordplay on almost everything we've had since ep1. There are tons of more complicated parts which are better examples(hello, BSOD-Shannon).

[witchfan]

I'm not too sure the "we will also consider Kanon to be dead" part was there. In any case, I believe the white that followed was "When Shannon dies, Kanon dies too". If it was said in red I would've had my doubts.

There's really no way to get around this without making immense asspulls (which makes you a hypocrite if you're one of the people who criticizes Ryukishi's writing on things like this).

I don't think Shkanontrice is "not true" in the harshest sense. I believe "fictional Shkanon" (in the sense that Kanon is considered a fictional entity) is true for the first four episodes (Shkanontrice is likely for Bern's game in EP8, too, but god knows), for example. However, I don't agree that this necessitates Shannon = Kanon in the actual human sense (for example, that Kanon was never an actual person in the plot, that he is merely Shannon's imaginary persona). I'd say THAT is much more of an asspull. Like I said, the assumption that anything other than Shkanon is ridiculous is just bias.

[Renall]

Well, you can consider Shkanon to be true, and still solve all of ep1-4 without them. You can also pretend Kanon doesn't exist at all and it almost works perfectly pre-Chiru (the almost being that Battler does physically meet him in ep1, which is insurmountable without a disguise or fictional Shkanon, which are alternatives to the very notion of a Yoshiya Durden idea). Kanon doesn't need to be there, he's never needed to be there, and that's why it's crappy writing. It's a twist that exists for its own sake and was clearly not well-planned ahead of time. I'm pretty firmly convinced he just made up a flimsy justification for Kanon's conception at ep7 because he hadn't been able to really think of one before that and he had to explain something to put in or people would wonder why Yasu didn't ever say anything about him.

To say nothing of trivializing both him and Shannon when he put the knife in Beatrice's back. It's kind of funny the way they get more respect out of Battler than Beatrice generally. Apparently their sole purpose was to be disposable pawns? The entire romantic subplot is flaccid outside of ep6, where Battler brings it to a satisfactory (if predictable) end. Then of course it all gets ripped up again later but hey, who cares? They're just characters.

But ultimately there is no simple explanation for why Shkanon must be true on any level. That is, why the mystery can't be solved without it (Shkanon makes mysteries harder to construct, not easier), why no other explanation could have applied (aside from "Ryukishi eventually just said so;" authorial fiat is a clunky resolution at best), or why it was necessary to have in the story in the first place.

Cynically, I'd offer that Ryukishi kept it open as a trump card in case he needed it, but didn't actually bother to structure the story around it (perhaps in case it got too popular too quickly and he needed to nix it?). It basically doesn't matter at all as anything more than a red herring; there's nothing in the actual plot structure that couldn't have been accomplished with a single servant. That two people posing as one is advantageous, but one posing as two is an actual handicap, should be self-evident. Yes, he makes it important later, but it only matters because he forces it to matter, and then he cops out at the last second and admits there really wasn't that much importance to Kanon after all.

I feel really bad for him. Kanon I mean, not Ryukishi.

[AuraTwilight]

It does make for good thematic use if not for mystery/plot development. If nothing else, Kanon accentuates how boned and crazy Yasu actually is, so that Beatrice isn't let off the hook if Battler doesn't come back.

[Jan-Poo]

But ultimately there is no simple explanation for why Shkanon must be true on any level.

But then again is there a simple explanation for why the theory that Battler is Kyrie's son must be true? You could solve any mystery without it, you could remove that whole part and anything related to it from the story and no one would really miss it. What does it change from the bigger picture? Nothing.

But that doesn't make it any less true.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

But then again is there a simple explanation for why the theory that Battler is Kyrie's son must be true? You could solve any mystery without it, you could remove that whole part and anything related to it from the story and no one would really miss it. What does it change from the bigger picture? Nothing.

But that doesn't make it any less true.

There's a difference. Battler being Kyrie's son is not touted as being integral to any mystery. Shkanon apologists are known to claim that it explains mysteries, a fact as untrue as Battler's parentage solving anything.

The two are similar in a sense though: Really, Battler could just as easily not have been Kyrie's son, and there's no reason whatsoever for the situation to have existed in the first place except to cast doubt on Battler's identity in ep4. Seriously, nothing Rudolf does makes any sense on any level in seemingly anything he does. Hell, I think he's a bigger problem than Yasu.

[witchfan]

To assume Shkannon, you need to be a lot more daring. The difference is that, whereas one theory is unnecessary and ridiculous, the other is minor, insignificant, and reasonable. There is no problem with assuming Battler is Kyrie's son, at least not one that I know of. The implications of that theory are minor. Shkannon, on the other hand, drastically changes the entire story if it is assumed to be true. And again, it is a ridiculous theory which I'm pretty sure we would all rather be done with. For these reasons it is held to a higher standard, not only of scrutinization, but also of necessity.

Edit: again, Renall?!

[AuraTwilight]

And yet you've been unable to explain in any satisfactory means why Shkanon is "unnecessary and ridiculous", "unreasonable", or "requiring assumption," witchfan.