2011-02-05, 00:47 | Link #61 | |
Seishu's Ace
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kobe, Japan
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I also think it might be perfectly true that context is affecting perception here. Because Urobochi and Shinbo are painting this is much more "realistic" tones than were used in those series, Kyuube's actions seem much more sinister. And, frankly, it's pretty rare to have a real debate within the series itself about the merits of magical girldom - at least to the extent it's happening here - and that impacts the way things are perceived too.
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2011-02-05, 00:50 | Link #63 | |
Frandle & Nightbag
Join Date: Oct 2009
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That doesn't mean that every mahou shoujo needs to be dark now, nor is this the first story of its kind with dark undertones, but if it can attract a large viewership and spark this level of debate, it just might break some new ground.
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2011-02-05, 00:56 | Link #64 | |
Banned
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Hell, Nanoha had child torture. One 9 year old girl watched her family be killed in front of her eyes and the experience drove her over the edge. Seriously, many other Mahou Shojo shows were dark and had grim and gritty details. Despite what you may think, Madoka wasn't the first. You should really go back and watch some of them, and you'll notice it. Edit: And Rayearth, ooooh, Rayearth.... |
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2011-02-05, 01:01 | Link #66 | ||||||
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I guess that I personally tend to simply focus on the facts at hand, and not allow how bright and colorful (or dark and full of dread) a show is to effect how I view those facts, and how they relate to the characters. Heavily armed foes fighting a fierce battle over lush green hills on a bright sunny day can lead to a lot of nasty deaths just as assuredly as heavily armed foes fighting a fierce battle on top of a barren wasteland shrouded with dark ominous clouds can. Quote:
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Because it has a darker tonal construction, as Ricky alluded to. But that doesn't change the basic facts at play. A protagonist character death is a protagonist character death. Magical girls fighting in dangerous battles is magical girls fighting in dangerous battles. And contracting (or pretty much forcing) teenage girls to fight those dangerous battles is contracting (or forcing) teenage girls to fight those dangerous battles. Is The Joker any less of a vicious serial killer because he's a laughing man in colorful clown make-up, as opposed to Hannibal Lecter who looks like a very creepy old man? Is Batman less of a hero than Superman because Batman wears black and looks scary, while Superman wears bright primary colors and looks inspirational?
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2011-02-05 at 01:32. |
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2011-02-05, 01:44 | Link #67 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Houston
Age: 36
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Kaijo your saying its fair because its capitalism, but even in capitalism this is considered not good.
Kyuu is using freak Absolute Advantage. Your saying it like this is a Comparative Advantage scenario. He looks for girls who he can have an absolute advantage against (as well as potential) and forces them to become MG. He had an absolute advantage with Mami, Sayaka's friend had no hope so that was another absolute advantage he could exploit. There is a big plot hole as well with what happens when the girls grow up? Or have all of them died before that has happened. Edit: Also Kaijo, A Lie: A known truth expressed as an untruth. Kyuu knew that another MG had come and was targeting there lives. But he gave off the expression that everything was fine and they were not in danger. That is a LIE. He lied.
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2011-02-05, 02:05 | Link #68 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
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I don't know about you, but to me all this seems pretty alien to the magical girl genre.
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2011-02-05, 02:07 | Link #69 | |||
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Does that make Vogue Optical evil? Quote:
Anyway, withholding information is not the same as lying. Perhaps Kyubey simply maintains a certain degree of confidentiality with the magical girls that he works with. Is it deceitful for Kyubey to not tell Sayaka about Kyoko's plans... or would Kyubey be making a serious breech of confidentiality with Kyoko by revealing her plans to Sayaka?
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2011-02-05, 02:13 | Link #70 |
<em style="color:#808080;">Disabled By Request</em>
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At this point, I'm not convinced that Kyuubey is purely evil, but he is definitely suspicious of some ulterior motive. At the moment, he reminds me of the Hare from Rozen Maiden, the liasion, with the goal of catalyzing the production and relationships between the various magical girls in this case, and it seems to be somewhat of a "game" for him. This isn't necessarily evil, in fact, if I were to describe an alignment for him it would be True Neutral. Only time will tell if this suspicion comes true, or if it is merely a suspicion that ends up being false. Given Madoka Magica's plot and the number of twists that have been implemented, I wouldn't be surprised if Kyuubey's character deviates.
Last edited by Pocari_Sweat; 2011-02-05 at 02:24. |
2011-02-05, 02:44 | Link #71 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Houston
Age: 36
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Kyuu is shown (so far) to be the only being to make the impossible possible in terms of giving a chance to turn something that can not be remedied by any other earthly means and make it possible. Mami was about to die, no one other than Kyuu had the resources that she wanted/needed to save her life. He was the sole supplier. The same goes for Sayaka's friend, the hospital had no means of providing the service he wanted/needed. But Kyuu did have it so Sayaka "paid" him for the service. That is absolute advantage.
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2011-02-05, 04:04 | Link #72 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Another thing is that Kaijo is spouting bullshit about luna.
Beryl wasn't ever about controlling the earth, but destroying it. As in, killing every single person in it. She was possessed by Metallia, and the whole point was to stop metallia, who is an eldtritch horror that Eat Anything (like, literally eating a planet won't take metallia long). Another point is that Where we know there are lots of MG in madoka, Senshi are extremely limited in numbers. A third point, like i said, is you can't talk about capitalism when it's about putting little girls into slavery. Wtf man. Edit: also, As far as i know, Luna never forced Usagi to do anything (except maybe save her best friend naru in the first ep), you are using fanon too much. Like those people who forget Usagi was 14-17 and Mamoru 17-20, and both had sex from early on in the manga regularly. |
2011-02-05, 04:41 | Link #73 |
Stupidity is Bliss.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: In Hancock's Heart
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QB IS A NINE-TAILED DEMON FOX!! XDDD
Ok, that symbolic shadow of him as if he had nine tails made me think of that.. XD Maybe that's his real appearance.. but then again, i can't still tell if his evil or not.. |
2011-02-05, 05:21 | Link #74 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
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I really don't understand why everyone jumps on Kyubei about not telling Sayaka about Kyoko. What good will that do? It is not like Sayaka will go deep inside the mountain and train a special skill to counter Kyoko. I fail to see how the scenario will be different if Kyubei told Sayaka about Kyoko ahead of time.
Another point about Kyubei is his contract with Mami. If Kyubei didn't show up, Mami will be dead already. Being a MG may have a shitty life, but it beats death, right? (Otherwise Mami can just kill herself if she thinks death is better than a MG life) Besides, Mami is unhappy because she is lonely - Life of a MG is a lonely life, kinda like a spy or undercover that you cannot talk to anyone about. She looks very happy in her last fight, when she knows she will have MG friend. If Mami were not killed, she will be a happy MG.
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2011-02-05, 07:14 | Link #75 |
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Houston
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Well think of it this way. Would you rather die with your family, or live for maybe a few more years of painful hardship all alone with your family still dead and you dying an even more gruesome death?
Knowing about Kyoko before hand would have helped out a great deal in trying to befriend her or at least contemplating what to do next. Kyuu was also leading Kyoko on as to Sayaka being stronger than her. If you think your opponent is weak you will hold out since they won't be worth your time. Kyuu does things in the best interest of himself, not for the girls he contracts with. I think we also need to figure out how his freaking name should be spelled out lol
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2011-02-05, 10:29 | Link #76 | |
Uncaring
Join Date: Sep 2010
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If Sayaka was aware that she was being targetted, she would not be so easy to surprise. Additionally knowing that someone is out to get you allows you to do a counter ambush by tracking said person down. This advantage will be negated if Kyubei told Kyoko that he updated Sayaka on her. The ending in that case would be a duel where no one side has surprise at all. |
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2011-02-05, 11:11 | Link #77 | |
RUN, YOU FOOLS!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost
Age: 44
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A better sentiment for Kyuubey would be "horrified". His actions, the way he does them are horrifying. |
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2011-02-05, 11:39 | Link #78 | ||||
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So again... so? Quote:
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At any rate, I have some other thoughts about all this that would be better served in the General Discussion thread, so I'm headed over there, as this is getting off-topic for this thread. |
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2011-02-05, 12:38 | Link #79 | |
Seishu's Ace
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kobe, Japan
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For the record, I think Yuuno got a bum rap. He was a pretty decent character who got screwed because they had no clue how to use his character.
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2011-02-05, 12:44 | Link #80 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Houston
Age: 36
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But look at Madoka in the broad aspect compared to other series.
In Nanoha, in the very original Triangle series her father was supposed to be dead. But he was alive in the MG Nanoha. Yuno was always apologizing for dragging Nanoha into the whole mess and putting her in danger. Kyuu on the other hand is always trying to get them to join and does not assist at all in fights or even watches the girls backs. The familiars in Nanoha always had devotion to there masters (granted Yuno wasn't tech a familiar but still supported Nanoha) The original villian in Nanoha, Precia, was not original evil and only wanted to get her daughter back. People can sympathize with her. The Witches in Madoka just want to make people kill themselves so they can grow stronger. You can't sympathize with that. In Sailormoon you had Yuna, who had complete devoting to the girls, they were the only ones who could do what they could. Kyuu just moves on to the next girl after one dies and doesn't even give a shit. Madoka is a LOT darker than most MG
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